ELECTIONS AND THE ECONOMY

[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5. [00:00:08] Speaker B: We're gonna start a chat with Justin Ram here this morning who is just to give you guys some insight. We're talking on economic international consultants challenge of the economic stability of this country. Mr. Ram, good morning to you, sir. [00:00:33] Speaker A: Hi. Good morning. Good morning, sir. How are you doing? [00:00:36] Speaker B: Well, boy, it is. [00:00:37] Speaker A: Can you hear me? [00:00:38] Speaker B: Yeah, we're hearing you loud and clear. You hearing us? [00:00:41] Speaker A: Yes, yes, I'm hearing you. [00:00:42] Speaker B: Well, beautiful, beautiful. Well, welcome to Freedom 106.5 FM. As we continue, before we, we continue or getting to it, it would be remiss of me to not ask you to tell our callers about yourself. A brief, a brief, brief synopsis on yourself, sir. [00:01:01] Speaker A: All right. Well, I'm a PhD economist, studied at the London School of Economics and Political Science. I'm a Trinidadian by birth, but I've lived a lot of my time away, although I'm now back in Trinidad working on some projects that I have in the pipeline. I've worked at Director of Economics at the Caribbean Development Bank. Most recently I was lead advisor to the government of Turks and Caicos. I've advised governments in Barbados, all across this region, and then governments in Africa and Asia as well. So hopefully that gives your audience a bit of a brief feel for who I am. [00:01:40] Speaker B: Brilliant, brilliant. And you're back in Trinidad and Tobago. Have you been solicited by any of the political entities for advice or to join them as an advisor or consultant? [00:01:52] Speaker A: No, no, I have not. [00:01:54] Speaker B: Have you put yourself in place? [00:01:56] Speaker A: I have not. I've sort of kept a low profile. Just that I'm working on some other projects. It's not that I. It's not that I don't want to help, it's just that I will also focus on some other things and some other ways I want to help Trinidad and Tobago from a private sector perspective. [00:02:13] Speaker B: Beautiful. I respect that. And we take in any help we can get from you, Justin. Any help we can get, we want it. As we look at the political landscape, the air is thick with election talk and a lot of the manifestos are out there. When it comes to the challenges facing economic sustainability in this country, especially with the growth. One of the biggest topics on the forefront is the Dragon Gas deal and what it can do to sustain the economy in the not too distant future. We still have the situation illuminating out there in the US with Donald Trump and how they feel about the Maduro administration and whether we'd have struck a deal with the devil or not, our allies and interest lies heavily with the US Much more than Venezuela, even though what Venezuela has in the pipelines right there, close to us, is what will be necessary to sustain the region as well. How do you see that for our politics in this country, especially when it comes to sustaining our economy going forward by either political party? And I say that the pnm, they all for it. We saw Stewart Cheung, the honorable Prime Minister, went and chat with Rubio recently out there in Jamaica, reiterating the point of the importance of it. And then we have the political opposition leader on the other side of the fence saying that this is not good for us, given the climate, the geopolitics that's playing now with the US And US and the Venezuelan Maduro regime. You know, when it comes to the challenges sustaining the economy in this country, how do you see it going forward if either one of these parties win? We can start with the PM and then go across to the UNC. [00:03:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, let me. Let me just start off, Mr. Murray, by saying my views on a number of these topics are not mainstream. And let me explain why that is. So I've just only recently moved back to Trinidad last September. [00:04:01] Speaker B: Welcome back. [00:04:02] Speaker A: I. Yeah, thank you. And I grew up here in the 70s and in the 80s, and I left Trinidad in the 1990s. And I'm very shocked at what I'm seeing here. What am I shocked at seeing is that when I was a boy in Trinidad and Tobago, we practically made everything that we could. You know, of course, there are some things we couldn't make, but we were well on our way to making quite a lot of things. We actually built vehicles here. Not that we manufactured them, we put them together. [00:04:34] Speaker B: Yep. [00:04:34] Speaker A: Assembled them, assemble them. That. We did that for refrigerators, you know, freezers, televisions, a host of things. Right. But what I see now in Trinidad and Tobago, and really unfortunate, I see it across the Caribbean as well, is that we have now prioritized our domestic market for cheap imports. Yes. So it means that we have taken our people away from being makers and producers, because ultimately that is what we were attempting to do to now being distributors and installers of cheap imports. And in my reflection looking at this, Mr. Murray, I think we have followed the wrong development path. Because what it means is that the number one metric that economists now use to say whether your economy is doing well is foreign exchange reserves. But when you think about it, well, why am I so focused on foreign exchange reserves? I'm only focused on that because I am now prioritizing the imports into my country, because that's really what it is. And so we have lost sight of what really is important. Because what has happened here, and I've been observing, is that when people do not make things for themselves, it means that wages are not good enough. And so what happens is that governments are now on a constant threat mill trying to find revenues to subsidize the consumption of these imports. So hence, for example, the government's expenditure in its budget, 50% of its expenditures goes towards subsidies and transfers. What are those subsidies and transfers for? Rarely to subsidize households to consume imports. I think the time has come for us to re examine this development model and to go back to a place where we can start making things for ourselves, producing things for ourselves, and thereby giving people the opportunity to earn a solid wage where they can take care of their households without the need for subsidies from governments. Now, I'm not saying that governments will not subsidize. I'm saying that government should subsidize production rather than the importation of cheap imports. And this is, I think, is an issue that I am not hearing from any of the political parties because we seem to be diagnosing the problem, thinking that all we need to do is simply go after more gas so that we can sell that gas as a raw material. If you think about it, we are practically following the cocoa model once again because most of the gas would go into liquefied natural gas, which is raw gas, which is raw gas which we then send to another country and they then use that gas to generate the electricity or to heat their homes so that they can add value to it. Why not use the gas that we have at home and start producing things at home and start ensuring that our people have better jobs and better opportunities here? And so, Mr. Murray, my thinking on this is completely different to a lot of the other economists because I just think that we are misdiagnosing the problem and constantly going after new gas so that we can import cheap, cheap things from abroad. And I think that's totally the wrong approach to development because it has left many of our people in what I consider to be a high level of dignity and equality. When I examine my people here in Trinidad and Tobias, I'm seeing too many people who are unable to take care of their households on their own without the need for government support. And we need to change that model. And This, I think, Mr. Murray, is where my mind is at. And I guess that is why I have not put myself forward Because I, I'm sort of developing these thoughts because I think that the development model that we're currently following is not good. And it is leading us in a path whereby I'm constantly on this treadmill trying to find more gas. I might go into a deal with a regime that we shouldn't really be going into a deal with. And then we are caught in the geopolitical crosshairs of what might be going on. I think that has to stop and we need to start focusing on producing more here and stop having this great focus on foreign exchange reserves. Of course we need to import some things, but that should be minimal. We should be importing the things that we definitely cannot produce as a country. Trinidad and Tobago can produce so much more. I remember when we used to repair aircraft here, we had the capability to, to repair aircraft here. Now I have to send my aircraft off to Atlanta or wherever to be repaired. What kind of development model is that? That makes no sense to me. [00:09:23] Speaker B: Even when. [00:09:24] Speaker A: Why are you putting yourself. [00:09:25] Speaker B: Yes, even when we was producing sugar, sugar in this country and we, we sell off all that, the Carony 1975 Limited, everything gone. And now we importing these things. So we become so. [00:09:39] Speaker A: And I know that this sort of thinking people say, but Justin, that, you know, we have tried that, but we were, we were inefficient producers of things. And so we tried to, we have gone to consume things efficiently. And I'm saying, no, we can change things around. And instead of regulating for cheap consumption, we now regulate for production efficiency. So if, for example, my oil refinery or my sugar refinery was not producing efficiently, why did I shut that down? I should have said, okay, I'm going to try to improve the efficiencies within that. Because ultimately we need to be producers of what we consume. We cannot continue on this path where we are constantly importing because it does not provide our people with, with the right type of salary and wages. And it leads us onto this treadmill of currently wanting foreign exchange to purchase cheaply. And let me just say something, Mr. Murray. When we say that we might be consuming efficiently, it cannot be efficient when you are consuming at the expense of the development of your population. That is not efficiency. That is cheap consumption. Yes, but it is not efficiency in my mind. [00:10:51] Speaker B: You see, when it comes to sustainability, right, I believe that with every government that come and go, we understand that the political climate in Trinidad and Tobago and for both parts of the Westminster, Westminster regimes, it's more or less a five year term. Within that five year, it's what legacy can I leave? What am I going to do? How am I going to benefit? And we would have seen that proven model coming from the late Prime Minister Patrick Manning when he cut short a tenure of his prime ministerialship to go to the polls and when he lost a lot of his government ministers, some of them fell off the grid. One such government minister, I remember Peter Taylor, they fell off the grid and because they couldn't sustain their lives, they would have prepared for a five year term, a five year period with whatever it was and they couldn't but be out of office now. So most of the times I believe this, when they get into the political landscape, they get into governance. It's all about a five year reign. Let's see, as we say in China, eat our food, so to speak but let's see how we can sustain ourselves. We'll do with the country, you know, but it's quickly wanting us, it's quickly wanting us to come and see how we could protect our people. And then if something happens and the landscape change politically and we out of office, we're right, we would have done that and we move on. So we're not getting that real sustainability, we're not getting accountability because you have persons in the oil refinery Petrochin at the time where they were getting salaries as best international practices, I would imagine that right, Salaries on par. However you complain about your wage bills but how many directors do you have? How many EVPs are you having a company, how many of this do you need? And then on top of that, are you holding these people accountable for the finances and the expenditure of the company? Because if you're seeing that here, what's going on, they're draining us because it's government intervention all the time. Look at BWIA and you were right. Why did we just ship everything off and start importing? We didn't close down, we closed on bwia. But it's just. Look, Carl is here. Carl, we're changing color the plane and the change management and we restructured the whole thing and we turned Carl, which was formerly BWI into profit making organization. Even though there's a loss, there's a fluctuation with profit margins year to year is still a prophet. So how do you get government to come back with that type of thinking? [00:13:18] Speaker A: Well, well I think and this is where I'm so happy you raised this point because I. So it's what's this is 2025 now. So we are going to be 63 years of independence this year we have, we have, we have enough time to now observe who we are as a people, to understand what we want as a people. And I think the time has come for us to have the discussion around what I term a new social contract. Not in the European sense, you know, not in terms of what Thomas Hobbes or some of these other European philosophers sort of announce on a social contract. It is about a social contract really fitted into the culture of who we are. So what, what is required there? I think, I think there needs to be a discussion about, okay, as an individual, what is my responsibility to society from the moment I get to working age until retirement and then beyond that as a government and as a people? What, what, what is our commitment to that individual from the moment that individual is born until they are able to work and then after they retire? So we need to have this discussion about what is the relationship between the state and the individual and to then form a new governance and constitution around that. And just bear with me here, what that also means is that the education curriculum has to change. Because I think what we're seeing as well is that if a government comes in and they are now saying, okay, I only have five years in power and so I have to try and do as much as I can here, but in a way that I can get re elected. And that doesn't mean I'm necessarily taking decisions for the long term benefit of the country. [00:15:10] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:15:11] Speaker A: Ultimately, ultimately it is the people who are not thinking correctly. And that has to do with our education curriculum. So what is it that we need to start teaching? I think we need to start teaching a little bit more about what is the history and the circumstances of our country, what are the economic prerequisites for us to be truly sustainable and independent. And then of course, socially, what am I as an individual supposed to be thinking about? And the long term benefits of this country is not only about thinking about me, but it's thinking about my children, my grandchildren, but also about my parents and my grandparents. What is it that we need to be doing collectively, together? And So I think, Mr. Murray, the time has come for us as a country to take a great reflection and say, okay, it's not only about economics, it's about the governance arrangements and the constitution that sort of structures this arrangement for us to now build in sustainability and long term thinking for our country. So that when people go to the polls, if a government has to make a difficult decision, people can say, you know what they're making decision for a long term gain. I'M not just expecting to see gains at the end of four or five years. And so I think that's the type of change that's going to be required here. It's a big, big developmental paradigm change that I think this country really needs now. It's not only economic, it's social and political as well. And part of that has to be wrapped up in understanding our history too, Mr. Murray, because that ultimately is a part of this discussion that has to happen. And I think that that's the type of real change and real discussion that we need to have that I'm not quite seeing. We still focus on the short term, so we focus on Dragon Gas. We're focused on trying to get as much gas there as possible so that I could feed those LNG plants so that I can get very little value, but it is still some money that I can then plow back to keep people happy. That's not development, that's not what we want. But we need to educate our people to understand what real development and sustainability is all about and what our about what my commitment as an individual is to the society and what the commitment collectively as society is to me as an individual. [00:17:24] Speaker B: Yes, you know, I hear you loud and clear and I often wonder to myself and I'm sure many of the callers. I will invite at least one or two callers to call me up now before we get to the end of the program very quickly and respectively respectfully, rather chat with Mr. Ram here and make your point at 627-322-3 and 625-2257. Let me see who's on my line. Hello, good morning. [00:17:49] Speaker C: Morning Davy. And morning to you again. We have a serious problem with education in this country. To me, the. The Ministry of Education has failed miserably in educating its citizens because the citizens of this country are very hard to put it. You have 13 year olds, 14 year olds right now who cannot read, right. And they go into secondary school, they pass commonly somehow and they can't read. So and then you have the, you see, if you don't teach the children, they're going to have to teach the adults. And this is what, this is the exact situation that we find ourselves in that we have to teach adults in the country. Nevertheless, people in this country are very race oriented when it comes to choosing their elected representatives. Simply they don't know about policy and how to differentiate good policy from bad policy and from different measures of choosing a candidate. And that's where we are right now. And that's the message. Politicians know this and that's why we are in the mess we are in today. Thanks a lot. [00:19:08] Speaker B: All right, thank you very much. Let's take this another call. [00:19:10] Speaker D: Hello. [00:19:11] Speaker B: Good morning. [00:19:12] Speaker D: Good morning, Mr. Ram. Mr. Ram, I want to say something to you. I like your ideas and the way in which you put them over because I've long advocated for us to get back in producing more of what we consume. The fact that the table at which I sat this morning and ate was made in Malaysia irks me because I know when I pass through the forest areas in Rio Claro. And so we have lots of teak growing like 40ft in the air. And one teak tree is worth about $10,000 minimum processed. And the fact that we cannot cut down that teak tree, process that teak and get young men, especially in those challenged communities, to build tables and chairs, to become innovators, making couch sets and all sorts of different things. You know, there are concepts in this country itself. $30,000 for one. [00:20:09] Speaker A: Right. [00:20:10] Speaker D: You know, you can do so many things and you are right. There was a time when we used to make cars. My friend Clyde Woodard tell me it was a screwdriver industry where we used to bring them down in boxes and put them together. But we used to do something. So we need to get back to producing more of what we consume. But it has to start with the state. We can create a program whereby we invite young men to come into this program to do this and we keep their salary at a level that would keep them in the program. Yes, but it would tell them that if you're getting a bigger salary outside, you could go and take it. So we need to do things like that. And you have a earn while you learn program in doing the same thing. The furniture, the Cossacks, the refrigerant, all those things need to be done because we need to create jobs. Jobs give someone a form of dignity when someone can see their family. In every household in this land, we need to take a policy position that in every household there will be a breadwinner. This person will work when the week comes. And if we do that, we're going to have less crime and all of those different things. So the whole question really and truly about the economy and when you spoke about gas and all of that, I don't expect the next set of gas to be consumed the way it was consumed on the last occasion because I've always advocated that we ought to be buying more machinery than Mercedes Benz. Right. And we have. We have so much of filthy rich things going on in this country and like they do not see the dirt poor. So all of those things have to change. So I want to wed with your ideas this morning what you have put forward. We need to get back to the position of creating much more that we consume. Thank you for listening. [00:21:57] Speaker B: Thank you very much, caller. [00:21:58] Speaker A: Yes, yes, Let me just say, well, both of those callers touched on some really important points. So let me first tackle what the second caller said. And I think this has to do with what we prioritize. So if you prioritize foreign exchange reserves as your number one economic indicator, you are telling me that you prioritize the importation of goods. What I think we need to do is to prioritize what I call human capital and say that, okay, I want to ensure that human capital is maximized over a person's life. And what do I mean by human capital? If I measure it like this, Mr. Murray, and I say, okay, I want to ensure that the income that this individual receives over their working life can be maximized. That means, and this now touches on the first caller. That means that one, I have to ensure that that person has a very good education and also is quite healthy, and secondly, that I have that I have a market in them for them to work whereby they can earn a good wage here. Now you might say, okay, well if I do that, what's going to happen? Why am I not pursuing these things? It is the economic model that you currently have that says to you at 11 years old you have an exam which more or less signals of that young boy or girl what's going to happen to them for the rest of their lives. And so the economic model only has space in the labor market to give a few people a few good jobs. So therefore, at 11, you are only putting a few of them into good education with some good schools. If you think about it, the economic model incentivizes this 11 plus exam whereby only I say maybe 20 or 30% go to good schools and the rest we sort of discard. That cannot be the case. If I, if I was to focus on maximizing human capital, which is the maximization of income of an individual over their lifetime, you would see that I would now be determined to give every individual in this country good education from the time they are ready to learn. So let's say from kindergarten, and I would say it is inefficient to have somebody leaving school at 16 or 17. We should say free education up until you have a tertiary level certificate. Be that a degree or some type of TVET certification. So maybe up until age 21, because that is how I want to maximize human capital. And then coming back to the. The point is here we have to. We have to prioritize our domestic market for our. For our own people. Because unless you do that and you follow globalization, as it were, globalization now, which speaks about free trade, means that it can only be efficient if labor is free to move as well. Remember that we can never really compete against a China or United States America. So one of the things our people have to understand is, look, I need to consume locally. I might have to pay a little bit more than if I was importing this product from abroad. But that's a price worth paying because it means that my people now have good education, they have dignity, they can take care of their households. And at the same time, it also means that my government is not trying to constantly find money to subsidize the consumption of households. And so there's a sort of a virtuous circle here that's going on, Mr. Murray, because we're following a model whereby we prioritize imports and therefore we sort of dumb down our people, as it were. People aren't able to support themselves, and so the government has to spend money to support them. That leads to constant fiscal deficits and of course, leads to high debt levels. It's a scenario that is not only in Trinidad and Tobago, but you see it across the Caribbean and across many places of this world. And that development model, I think, has to stop. What we are following here is something that has been disadvantageous to us and it is something that we cannot continue with. [00:26:02] Speaker B: Indeed. So I truly appreciate your pronouncements on those two callers. Thank you so much. [00:26:06] Speaker E: Morning, Davy. And morning to your guest there. Very interesting and very good conversation, and it's a very good conversation in theory. But to get that done in practicality, I think we have to change our mindsets first. And that is something very difficult. So we have to start from the ground up. We just can't say we want to do this and then try to change the people. You know, I think we should try to change. Change the mindset of the people first and then put forward these ideas. It's very good. It's very, very good ideas. But at the end of the day, we really need to start to teach these things in schools, you know, from. From preschool up. Self sustenance and self sustainability and all these things, you know, instead of just depending on everybody and depending on the Government for everything as, as we, we normally do. And Eric, I mean, you're so. Your song look very good this morning. But your government has been in power for 10 years. Not one of those policies you spoke about there was put in place. Now you have the answers. Don't be a hypocrite, Eric. [00:27:16] Speaker B: Now, Justin, when you look at the political landscape before us in Trinidad and Tobago, one has to ask, is it that we are only depending in one sphere of things to sustain economic growth in this country? Why are we not looking at agriculture in addition to what you were saying with bringing back. Because what you're basically coming down to in layman's terms is bringing back those plants. You know, let us come back in a position. Even if it, if, if, if the Japanese, for example, or the Taiwanese or whatever could send, send down vehicles in crates and let's have a, let's have a, let's have a plant here. It will sustain growth in this country because they will pay us to send to set up a plant here. [00:27:56] Speaker A: All right? [00:27:57] Speaker B: Then we will have their engineers working with our local engineers, training them to start building and reassembling vehicles and getting them roadworthy and putting them out there. It will create sustainable growth for jobs in this country and for persons to venture into their, into those. Oh, my gosh, I now had it in nobody professionals, professionalism and in those professions, because we're training our infants to get a job. Are we training, we're not training to become a professional because you get, you get a doctorate, let's say, as a medicine, you're a medical doctor, you're practicing medicine, so you get a doctor and people say, well, that is your profession. But when you get up, when you become a professional or you come qualified in a specific area, that is when you start to come into your true self. Because you become a bone specialist, a heart surgeon, a neurosurgeon, you know, and you're going to know you're a doctor overall, but you're not just a GP anymore. And similarly with those, in those, in those type of factories, you would become not just a worker, handmade pliers, a laborer, as it were, but you become a professional in whatever part of it's putting together the transmission, the engine. You can delve deeper into the world of mechanics, you know, so, and then I look at agriculture. So I await your pronouncements quickly on other things we can do to diversify the economy and the economic challenges that we're facing. What do you think about outside of the oil and gas, what Else do you think we can look at? You have already mentioned some. [00:29:26] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I think, well, I think the first thing and let me just touch on what the caller says. And this is why I say the education system is really has to be high on the priority, the curriculum, what we teach, you know, and I that's why I also said let's speak, let's also learn history because history is really important for us to understand why we need to do this as well. Mr. Murray, it's very important to understand why we need to do this because when we continue in what we are doing now, we are ignoring history and sort of just keeping us in that place where we were and we don't need that. We need to move out and have true, not only political independence. And this is where I think some of our political forefathers and our current leaders don't understand. They are only seeking political independence, not understanding that real independence is economic. Real independence is economic. And that is what we have not focused enough on now to say, well, now to just come back quickly, diversify the diversification. It's very easy for this country to diversify. I think people don't realize how easy it is. I mean, you have look, I, I am here in Port of Spain. As I look around, I look around me, we, the, the gentleman spoke about building furniture. We can do that sustainably if we set aside forest areas that we fell trees in. But we also grow, you know, you can't just let it happen haphazardly. It has to be done in a controlled manner. I think manufacturing as well, the agricultural sector. I, since I've been back in Trinidad, I try to eat as much local as I can because I think that's important to maintain the sustainability of this country. So all the fruits that I eat, I am trying to eat local rather than trying to buy a strawberry or blueberry, which we do not grow here. There's so many beautiful fruits. This is the type of education that, that we need. And I think as well, we need to go back into the assembly of things that we utilize here. So that might require us saying to some of these manufacturers, come and set up some plants here. So let us go back into the assembly of fridges or freezers, even of motor vehicles. And when, and I, and I think motor vehicles might be easier for us to do now because to assemble an electric vehicle now, Mr. Murray, is so much easier than assembling a combustion engine, for example. So opportunities are there. [00:31:41] Speaker B: And just to add to what you're saying, if we're assembling them here, maybe the cost factors for these vehicles will reduce because you don't have to import them and pay these import taxes because they're coming in, in parts. And then, you know, we can have these arrangements in place where the cost factors and importation taxes would reduce. [00:31:58] Speaker A: And then eventually your people see how these things are made and you might start even producing them here yourself rather than only assembling. Right. So this is what is, it has to be a long term goal. Who knows what can come out of, of, of this. But I think we have to prioritize our domestic market for things that we produce either entirely here or things that we add value to. For example, if you're assembling a vehicle and you're adding value to it here, you need to prioritize your market. Of course, there are some things that we'll never be able to produce and we have to import those things, but that should be minimal right now. Mr. Murray, we are consuming 70% of what we consume. We import. We need to reverse that. We need to say 70% of what we consume should be produced here and Maybe only import 30% of what we consume. I think it's possible. But that mindset has to change and we have to stop focusing on foreign exchange reserves as a number one metric of economic development. It is not. It needs to be focused on human capital development and the dignity of our people. And how do you do that? You need to start producing more things at home. [00:33:03] Speaker B: You know, I want to thank you very much for chatting with me this morning. I thoroughly understand when you said your thoughts are not that it's pretty outside the box. To the other political scientists and analysts in this country, you have given us some thoughts here that is really, really outside the box. And one of the things I would say to you in harmony with what you said, most of the callers and whatsappers have agreed with you this morning. And the thing about it is when we look at governments, even if we do one government decides, I'm going to start this. Most of these projects will take maybe a decade or more to really get off the ground in a proper way or it will take more than a five year period. So if they start the talks, it takes about two years to get those contracts in to get the plans set up. And by the time they start up, they start to get on the fringes of operational factors in Trinidad, government change. The next government comes in and they find, you see that all this nonsense I was telling earlier, we could go back to this because it's a quick buck and they shut it down. We have had contracts where we pull back on and had to pay the penalties. So it all rests not just with government as a whole, but political entities. These luminaries in the political landscape must hold one head even if you lose elections and the next one comes in. If this is good for the country and it was initiated by this political party, show some testicular fortitude and continue with it. Bring it for the people. They will remember you. That will be your legacy. Justin, I want to thank you very much this morning. You have been incredulous with this interview and I will always say don't be a stranger. I'm sure my producers are listening still and we will be chatting with you again in the not too distant future. Thank you so much for chatting with me this morning. Have a great day. [00:34:50] Speaker A: Thank you, Mr. Murray. [00:34:51] Speaker B: You're welcome. Have a good one. [00:34:52] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:34:54] Speaker B: And that concludes our show for today. [00:34:57] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability, the all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.