Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability, the all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5 joining us here this morning to discuss some of these developments at a regional level and how they impact on us here at home. Let's welcome back to our program. We haven't spoken to her in quite some time. Criminologists Rennie Cummings, good morning to you. Nice to have you with us here this morning.
[00:00:26] Speaker B: Good morning. Thank you so much for having me.
[00:00:29] Speaker A: I know that it's, it's a challenge sometimes with the, with the timing and everything else, but I want to thank you for being with us here this morning because this is a discussion. We've had several installments on this topic when it comes to crime. And one of the most recent developments came out of this CARICOM summit, the second one that was held where crime was dealt with as a health issue by Caricom. The first one was held last year in April here at home at the Hyatt Regency. And coming out of that, they passed a resolution that high powered rifles would be banned from the public and the public wouldn't get that this time around. Coming out of the Caricom summit, they've issued a statement saying that they're going to create a gang database for the region.
Let's begin by getting your opinion on, number one, CARICOM coming together to treat with the issue of crime and more so treating with the issue of crime as a public health issue.
[00:01:37] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much for that question. I think it is commendable when we think of CARICOM trying to come together to treat with crime because crime is regional and we are all interconnected. We live in a very highly interconnected world, of course, with the Internet, with social media, with the ways in which we communicate with each other. We're using so many interactive tools now as you and I are using this tool here. So that is really commendable that Caricom has decided to move in that direction. The question becomes, how does Caricom pull its talent together? There may be some countries with more capital to deal with the issue, some countries with more talent. The other question is who's leading that initiative? Because from what we have seen since the meeting in Port of Spain is that not much has happened when it comes to knowledge hitting the ground. When it comes to knowledge, to practice, there is nothing we can say across the region that feels like a collaborative, collective approach to reducing crime. So it is commendable they have come together. The challenge is what have they produced? Since they have come together, the other Challenge, when we think about a public health approach is a public health approach is simply a multidisciplinary approach to the ways in which we deal with crime. So we are approaching crime as we approach a health issue, as we approach a disease. Often, like we approach the pandemic, you isolate what the challenge is. It's violence. You isolate what is causing the violence and then you start to treat or you triage each aspect of what is causing that concern, like you have, you will treat with diabetes, or you treat with hypertension, or you treat with a pandemic. The challenge with a public health approach is that a public health approach requires an extraordinary amount of resources, which is money and an extraordinary amount of talent. And it is usually an approach that is led by the medical field, by the medical practitioners, by your healthcare practitioners. So in the United States and the uk, they've taken a public health approach to gun violence, which means that from every doctor to every victim understands what that approach is. Whether or not we have really taken a public health approach, I will say no, because, one, we don't have the resources, we certainly don't have that interdisciplinary and multidisciplinary approach, and we definitely do not have that kind of talent. You know, speak to any doctor in Trinidad and Tobago and ask that doctor, you know, are you part of this public health approach? And I think you'll probably get your answer.
[00:04:10] Speaker A: I'll be honest with you. Since we were first told about this by our Minister of Health and the Prime Minister of approaching crime as a public health issue, no one has explained it as clearly as you have.
And I think you've. That's an indictment against everybody else, all parts of all arms of. Of the government's PR machinery, because it confused real people. People were like, well, what do you mean? You're treating this as a public health issue. And no one took, or probably nobody knew how to explain it the way you did.
[00:04:41] Speaker B: I think they didn't know because I saw what the Prime Minister said and what the Minister of Health said. And sometimes we pull these things, we extrapolate things and we import them into Trinidad and Tobago. It sounds nice. I'll be very honest with you. The United States has been using a public health approach to crime since the 1970s. It has produced some results and in many places it has produced absolutely no results. But the difference is they created that approach. They pulled together all of their healthcare and health practitioners. So there is a real understanding. It takes a long time, it takes an extraordinary amount of resources. And I will be honest with You, I think oftentimes we just these catchphrases or these sound bites and we really don't understand what it is we're talking about.
[00:05:28] Speaker A: Well, I think there's more evidence of that with this latest pronouncement about this gang database, because it seems as though, I mean, I don't know where the idea came from, or they sat in the room and they come up with it, but it seems as though somebody just sits and says, well, you know, the US doing this kind of thing, maybe we should try it.
And that's. I don't want to say that's the approach, but it seems to be the very same thing. What's your take on this gang database across the region? Do you think it's going to even get off the ground?
[00:05:59] Speaker B: Well, this is again the challenge. So the gang databases have come into, let's say, ill repute in the United States. And over the last five years, many states have had to really disband that approach and get rid of those gang databases because not only are they fraught with inaccuracies, remember we're dealing with data. So if you are inputting data into a system and you misspell a name or you are inaccurate with a date of birth, you can actually create a gang identity for someone who is not a gang member. The other challenge with these gang databases is how do you identify who is a gang member? Is that left up to a very haphazard and capricious approach by a police officer? If a police officer has an interaction with me or you and sees that either of us may have a tattoo. I don't have any tattoos. I don't know about you, but let's just say we did. You know, they could have just at that moment say, we're going to put Satish and Renee into this gang database. So the challenge with the gang database is one, in Trinidad and Tobago in particular, we have had so many challenges with our gang legislation as to who is the gang leader. How do we determine who's the gang leader? What are the criteria that we're using? So it comes back to how do you define gang leader? What is the criteria? Who inputs that person in there, whether or not the data is accurate, how often is the data inconsistent? Questions around the lack of supervision and monitoring of these databases and as questions around police misconduct or malfeasance. So in the US what they found is that in particular California found that it had this gang database and it was actually just putting black and brown, African American, Latino, other immigrants into a Database. And you had this database that really was creating these zombie predictions of who were gang members and they were not. There was even a 6 year old and a 10 year old in the gang database because of the fact that they had some sort of interaction in school and you know, the police came in or whatever it was, and they were children. So you found that most of the states who have gang databases have actually started to disband them. Now I work in the space of data science and AI and we're seeing that people can create fake profiles. So if someone is using a profile, someone has your face created a fake profile of you holding a rifle or you activities, then we have challenges. So gang databases, although some police officers believe it is a valuable investigative tool, it has proven to really be something fraught with inconsistencies, inaccuracies and something that really does not deliver the kind of efficiency and excellence police often hope it would. So in the Caribbean, where we have a challenge with data gathering, where we have a challenge with the databases, where we have a challenge with really collecting that kind of information, we've got to ensure if we are even trying something like this, which is proven to be ineffective already, you know, what are we really trying to do?
[00:09:13] Speaker A: I think what I'm going out on a limb here, I think the intention is satisfying public discontent. Because what we have now is you have reports that members of gangs in Trinidad are setting up shop in St. Vincent and Barbados and other parts of the Caribbean. So it may be an attempt by the leaders to send a message that, listen, we have a handle on this thing. When the announcement was made and the story went up on social media and everything else, the first question I asked was, all right, if we have a database and we identify who we say are gang members, what happens? Do we stop them from traveling when they go to the airport or deny them entry to account? Oh, how do you do these things?
And based on what? Because being identified as a member of a gang is one thing, which here at home, being a member of a gang, you're supposed to be arrested based on the anti gang legislation, all that kind of thing. But if the person is not under any kind of charge, what's the point of saying that they are a member of a gang? And what does that prevent them from doing? And quite frankly, caricom, you never get the opportunity to dissect these things with the people who make the decisions because they don't avail themselves to these kinds of interviews to come and explain. Well, here what we sit down and we talked about this and this is how we think it could work and all that kind. They don't ever do that. So they throw out these ideas that after two days they sit down and they come up with. And we need the expertise of people like yourself to come now to try to explain to us what we, what they probably have in their minds. From what you've outlined to us and the information in the public domain, this is doomed to fail. Because if a state, if the US with all the resources that the US has at its disposal can't get right, we'll make you think we could. And you've outlined that in so many different ways. So what does that mean for the regional fight against crime?
[00:11:08] Speaker B: It means one, we need to do our research. It needs two, that our leaders need to do their homework. It means three, that sometimes the people we bring together at the table do not have the kind of experience that is required. So when you're thinking about reducing gun and gang activity and violence, I think we are into almost into 2025 and I think by now we've realized that gang databases, legislation, all of these things really have had limited impact. Again, you raised an excellent point. Because you're in a database, it does not mean that you've committed a crime. It means that someone has made the interpretation based on an interaction with you or even based on an arrest, which is not a conviction, that you are a gang member. Most of the individuals who get into gang data databases is because that someone, usually law enforcement, perceives that you look like a gang member or you behave like a gang member, or you associate with a gang member. What has happened, particularly in the U.S. given where people live, you would have a 17 year old associating with other young people. And some of them may be in a gang, some of them may be your brothers or your cousins. But because you're living in the same area, these are the only friends that you have. So guilty by association. What do we need to do at this stage? I think it is, as you said, anyone really believing that something like a gang database or standardizing the extradition processes for perpetrators across the region, I mean, these things, yeah, sure, they do exist and some spaces have them, but they haven't proven effective, they haven't proven to reduce gun and gang violence, and they've certainly not proven to really enhance the quality of life in communities. When you enhance quality of life, when you focus on education, when you focus on people's health, what they're eating, their nutrition, the kinds of interactions they're having, with the community, what they are doing with their mind. These are the things that reduce gun and gang violence, not a gang database. I mean we all know sometimes we may be doing business and sometimes an organization, a company or a bank sometimes have, has, you know, information that's inappropriate or inaccurate. Who's auditing if you are not, if you are inaccurately placed in it. Most times people cannot get out of it. So when you think of all of these things and when you think about just leaving this up to the police or law enforcement, you're really taking a big risk. So they can have the gang database if they feel it's a way that they can track and they can trace. And because again with the gang database it's information and there is no planet, you know, where this kind of information has naturally led to evidence or arrest. You still have to build a case, you still have to show up, you still have to bring the requisite evidence. You still have to use science, you still have to use critical thinking. A gang database doesn't provide that. So it's, you know, as I would say, when, when, when leaders make statements like those, it's really just comfort for, you know, for a fool.
[00:14:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I, when it comes to Caricom, CARICOM has, I don't want to say a track record but they, it's very rare that anything Caricom agrees upon is actually executed.
I mean if we were to go back for the past 10 years, 20 years, how many ever years and look at all the things that CARICOM has said they were going to do. How much of it has actually been achieved? I mean csme, single market economy. They've been looking at that since we've been talking of caricom. They've been talking and we haven't been able to get it right. Yes, we have movement of people and one or two little advancements, but not in the way that we would have expected recently. You're talking about food and food production. We had an agreement between four CARICOM nations, Suriname, Barbados, Trinidad Tobago and Guyana to provide food.
We've not heard of anything of that since the announcement was made. And it's a greater indictment against this regional body that they just can't get things done. Let's take the discussion to a more focused point here at home. Some of these pronouncements from CARICOM about policy at a regional level we see and you've analyzed it's far fetched to getting the kind of results or even getting off the ground here at home. We Have a discussion about legislation and legislation related to crime and how crime legislation assists. Because whenever you, whenever you hear the Minister of National Security or you hear the Prime Minister speak or others in government, they speak about legislation and the need for increased legislation to fight the crime that we are seeing. And I always say, I think we have plenty law, laws on the books. We're just not enforcing. We have enough and that.
What's your take on this thing about more and more legislation to fight crime?
[00:16:07] Speaker B: Again, it's just a way for leaders to oftentimes sound tough. But we have sufficient legislation. Legislation we're not even using. The fact of the matter goes back to this. In Trinidad and Tobago in particular, I do not think we really have the requisite kind of talent to assess and analyze the data. Too many of our approaches to crime and crime reduction and crime control are very, very archaic and they are not in step with the times. We now are living in the age of artificial intelligence. As we move into 2025, AI is going to be probably the greatest gift and the greatest challenge to this world. When we think about the approaches that we have used, they have not been innovative, they have really not been inventive, they have not been imaginative. And we certainly do not know how to analyze data and how to come up with the kinds of approaches that are required. We do not need any more legislation. We have a criminal justice system that is so slow to respond. We have people on remand yard and people who've been incarcerated who need to be out of the prison system because we do not have the kinds of impact assessments and audits that are done to see who's in there, why they're in there, how long they're in there. The people in there probably don't even remember why they're in there, right? And they've just existed. So we don't need any more legislation. What we do need are leaders who really understand what it takes to reduce the crime rate, what it takes to lift up crime control policies, and what it takes to really improve quality of life. Quality of life is what you need to look at. And you look at the quality of life in certain communities, then you understand the criminogenic factors that create criminal intent or really force people to behave in a particular manner. When you look at your education system, when you look at whether or not your education system is meeting the needs of boys, and that's something that we do in Trinidad and Tobago, we educate women beautifully, right? When we think about the number of women in our universities or in our graduate programs, in our PhD programs. When we think about the offering for young men and the kinds of approaches that are required for some men, young men who are struggling in particular communities. When you look at questions such as, you know, the ways in which, you know, the education system is really thinking, when you look at things like SCA and whether or not it's really serving the needs of certain communities and you look at the failure rate, then you understand what are your connections to crime and criminality. And of course, I would say we have sufficient legislation. What we do not have is leaders who truly understand the kind of research, the kind of critical thinking, the kind of innovative thinking that's required. And many of them just do not have the research and many of them just don't do their own work.
[00:18:59] Speaker A: Yeah. For those of you who may have joined our conversation midway, we are speaking with criminologist Rennie Cummings discussing several things, Carrie Calman's latest pronouncements on crime and some of the issues that we have here at home. When, when the announcement was made by our Prime Minister about this latest CARICOM initiative and I suggested to the producer that we invite you to speak on it, it's because I knew that you would be able to give us this all round picture of what needs to be done. And I remember a conversation that I had with you where you lamented that you had offered your services and you did not even get the respect of an acknowledgement to that request to help.
And it's an indictment against us as a people because we have talent, we have people who know we have people who can help us get out of the situation that we're in, but they're not given the opportunities to help for whatever reason. And that's just so sad. You are a classic example of that. I mean, what you've outlined to us is as clear and as concise and as commonsensical as you can get an approach to the matter. But for whatever reason, it seems that though when people get into office and this is not about a person in particular, successive administrations like as we say, and you don't know exactly how to address the thing, and that's to the, it's to the, it's a dagger to the progress of the nation. Because if we can't get this crime situation under control, which we can't, we haven't been able to, the murder statistics is definitely one of the indicators that we've been losing the battle. We on the track to get over 600 murders again at the end of this year. It affects business, it affects your personal life, it affects the quality of life, it affects investment, it affects, it affects so many different things.
[00:21:01] Speaker B: And what, let me just add there, what it also creates is what is considered as intergenerational trauma. Remember, with everyone who is murdered, ask yourself how many of those cases have actually been solved and whether or not that person is involved in criminal activity or not. Each case must be solved. If a case is not solved, ask yourself what happens to a family? What happens to a family if a relative goes missing and is never found? What happens to a child or a parent or a sibling if someone in the family is murdered and there is no justice? What happens to a community that is looking for justice and the justice system is not responding? That creates trauma. Think about it. You're a 10 year old, you're an 8 year old and your parent has been murdered. In some communities, both parents are murdered. In some communities, parents are murdered, uncles and aunts are murdered. In some families, they probably have three or five people who've been murdered. And none of those cases have actually been adjudicated. In the criminal justice system, that is considered intergenerational trauma. And it also creates, which is a disregard for the law. You know, the fact that you believe that the criminal justice system does not respond to your needs. So it creates what we considered legal cynicism where individuals in particular communities, communities start to believe that the police and the criminal justice system does not respond to you. So you would find in certain communities, people continue to take the law into their own hands. So revenge becomes the law. So if someone is murdered in a community and someone believes that someone else did it, whether or not they have the evidence or not, they are going to find their own means to deal with that person. And that is what we are seeing in Trinidad and Tobago, a combination of intergenerational trauma that continues to lead to legal cynicism that ensures that the crime rate will continue to spike. Because many of those murders are retaliation and revenge. And of course, many of them are extraordinary violence. And one of the things I think we don't do is we don't look at that violence, right? If you want to create a database, create a database with the victims, Create a database that shows what created the context of a victim. Create a database of crime scenes, create a database of approaches that were used by the perpetrators, create a database of psychological autopsies, create a database of the kinds of wounds when the autopsies are done. And then you start to come up with the data that's going to help you to reduce crime. Not these gang databases. I mean, these things are so inconsistent. You put the wrong date of birth, you spell someone's name inaccurately, and you and I could end up in a database and cannot get out of it and it ruins your life.
[00:23:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
Recently we had a conversation with Mariana Brown about the economy and forex and all those things. And he used a term that I. That I thought was really interesting. And he said something, he said that you cannot have a political response, an economic situation. You need to have an economic response, the economic situation.
Are we having political responses to our crime situation that have been over and over and over again?
[00:24:21] Speaker B: You know what I will say, Satish? You know, I would like to say that. And Mariano is right. You need to, you know, the requisite response. But if that is a political response, if what we are seeing now is a political response to our crime situation, even the political responses failed because it is flaccid, it is unscientific, it really makes no sense. And we have a challenge. That's just not a crime rate. You know what I mean? As a critical data scientist, data are people. So it's not a crime rate. 600 is a number. It's not a number in the lottery. It's not a number in bingo. It's a number of lives lost. It's a number of individuals who are not getting an opportunity to ever contribute to the development of this country. Families are grieving for these numbers. That number is an extraordinary amount of trauma. And what we've got to do is, I mean, I don't know how often I can say this. I oftentimes try to stay away from these interviews. I did this interview because of you and Melissa. And of course I'm happy I made it because I forgot I'm an hour behind you. So I had to, like, look at the time and then rush on. But, you know, I will say this.
We should really expect more of our leaders, and we're not doing that. And our leaders should start to think about themselves as part of this country. You know, I don't think they think of that. And to think of their constituents and the people of Trinidad and Tobago more than just, you know, a vote. These are human lives that are being destroyed. And if we add up for the last 20 years the number of people who have been murdered in this country, the number of families who continue to exist without justice, the extraordinary kind of pain and trauma in our communities, then we will understand what we need to do. And just coming up with these laws and speaking about gang databases and you know, all the other thing. It really is very sad and it really breaks my heart because we have all the talent we need in Trinidad and Tobago to do what we need to do.
[00:26:30] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. It's just about 12 minutes before the top of the hour. We are speaking with criminologist Rennie Cummings. Let's squeeze in a couple quick calls, emphasis on quick. Let's see who's with us. Hello, good morning, Satish. And morning, Thomas Cummings calling from Chaguana. So it's coming now that we have identified problems in the security apparatus of this country.
What are your remedies now? We have to start with policing, go back to the judiciary. What are the remedies that what you suggest for any government that should. They should be implemented in order to make the place safe again. I'll let snowfall. Thank you for your call, Cummings.
[00:27:13] Speaker B: Thank you so much and good morning, Chagonas. You know I'm a product of Chagonas, right? I attended Chagona's government primary school, the old one, and my grandmother still lives in St. Thomas Village, so. Good morning, Shagornas. I think what we need to start with, first of all is who are the minds coming up with these approaches? You just can't leave these things to police officers or members of the security services. You really have to get the people who understand what the challenge is at hand, who have done the research, who have the experience, who have the expertise to come on board. We continue to allow people with very limited expertise. Imagine you say something like a country is taking a public health approach to crime and nowhere did anyone even break that down as to what it is. So if you don't understand what it is, how do you design the programs that are required? How do you roll it out? So you see, what are our challenges? Let's begin with the people who have the knowledge to. To really do what is required and just not political appointees or, you know, nepotism, friends, family or whoever we choose.
[00:28:18] Speaker A: Yeah, 625-257- I'm not sure we'll have another call, but coming close to the end of our interview, I'm really glad that you decided you took the decision out of your very busy schedule to be with us.
Kudos to Melissa for convincing you to come on.
Do you expect anything to change? No, that's absolutely not. Go ahead. Yeah. And it's a question that needs to be confronted because if we open the lines and I'm sure after the interview people will call and say they want the crime situation. Anybody that you speak to, regardless of their position in society, they say that the crime situation is probably one of the biggest challenges confronting us and they want something to be done. I think we have a call. Let's see who this is. Hello, good morning.
[00:29:03] Speaker C: Hello, good morning to your guest and to you. Satish, a quick question. I've noticed a type of numbness in the general population and even our leaders in terms of dealing with our crime situation. For example, a lot of murders, a lot of murders are deemed to be gang related. And I sometimes, I doubt sometimes the label that is put on them and feel as well is put a little too quickly and is meant to just sweep the entire issue under the carpet and don't deal with it. I don't know how you feel about that. I'll listen off the air.
[00:29:38] Speaker A: Thank you so much for your call.
[00:29:40] Speaker B: The caller is on point because we just label everything gang related. And it's not because we don't drill down into the data. We don't break it down. And the call is right on. It's easy to just put a gang label, you know, gang related. But what's gang related? Two people you believe in a gang, you know, have an argument while they're drinking a, you know, having a drink in a, you know, in a bar. It may be just an argument about something else. It may have had nothing to do with any gang activities. So again, that speaks to the laziness of law enforcement with the ease in which they want to label everything gang related.
[00:30:17] Speaker A: Yeah. As we end our interview here, this. Oh, we have another call. Let's take this call before we wrap up. Hello, good morning.
[00:30:22] Speaker C: Morning to you guest there. I would like to express our view here. Listen to the PNM people. They see crime as all over the world and we here would accept that.
They say that crime is all over the world. So there's no problem in trying. Would you like to comment on that, please?
[00:30:42] Speaker B: Paula? Thank you so very much for that. Again, that's another cop out indeed. Crime is happening all over the world. But all over the world there are responses that are working. There are data driven approaches. There are approaches that are using technology. Listen, as I continue to say, perpetrators are only getting more savvy as the world is now steep into AI. We are not even discussing AI, data, data privacy, all of these challenges that are happening around the world and we are still lagging behind when it comes to approaches to deal with crime. I beg every day that our leadership will really come together and understand that they cannot do it. They have given us their best. I believe that. I believe all our leaders who have dealt with this crime situation, they have tried their best, but sometimes you've got to step back and realize, listen, I've done my best. My best is all I could give. My best is not enough. Let us get the kind of people locally who can get this job done. It is not a police response, it's not a database that's going to save us, but it's our creative thinking, our creative intelligence, our minds and really bringing the right talent to the table in real time.
[00:31:55] Speaker A: I think that's the proper note for us to leave our interview here this morning.
We'll have to have you back to speak about AI because I don't think we understand here at home what it means. And when it comes to data security, we had a big breach in TST and some people still don't take it seriously, some people concerned. So we'll need to have an expert like yourself to come in.
[00:32:17] Speaker B: Most definitely. And I look forward to that conversation because it's futuristic and it's forward thinking. I love my country. I continue to let them know that I am here to assist you. But we have got to open up our minds and we've got to realize it's not about being territorial. It's not about feeling that, you know, that you failed. We have a pressing challenge and if we deal with that, you know, we could return Trinidad and Tobago to the beautiful island that it truly is.
[00:32:41] Speaker A: Thank you so much for being with us here this morning.
[00:32:43] Speaker B: Take care. Bye bye.
[00:32:44] Speaker A: My pleasure having you. Ladies and gentlemen, that's how we drop the curtains on our interview with criminologist Rennie Cummings. The best insight, instant feedback, accountability, the all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.
