Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability, the all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: All right, let's say good morning to you, Dennis. Good morning and welcome to freedom again. 106.5. Good morning.
Good morning. Mr. Scott, are you there?
Hello? Good morning.
I wonder if he's hearing me. Are you able to connect with me?
Mr. Chal, are you there? Are you able to hear my voice? Good morning.
I don't understand.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: All right.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: In the interim, let me, let's, let's get to 20 after 7. We are trying to connect with Mr. Dennis Scott Chubroll on the issue as it relates to the Essequibo river territory. The stance, Guyana stance. Dr. Irfan Ali would have, would have spoken.
All right, let's see if we can get him in this time.
I don't know what happened there.
[00:01:16] Speaker A: Great.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: Are you able to hear me? Good morning.
[00:01:19] Speaker A: Good morning. Are you hearing me?
[00:01:20] Speaker B: Yes. Good morning. Finally we got you.
[00:01:24] Speaker A: Yes.
So once again, good morning to your listeners in Trinidad and Tobago. It's a pleasure being on Your radio station 106.1 FM in Trinidad.
[00:01:35] Speaker B: Yes. 106.5. 106.5.
[00:01:37] Speaker C: 1.
[00:01:38] Speaker A: 6.5. Yes.
Coming to your question, I think right now in Guyana we are in a wait and see pattern following the United States intervention in Venezuela.
I think primarily our major concern here is the movement of criminals and migrants across our largely porous border with Venezuela.
For those of you who are knowledgeable about territory, we have both river and ocean borders with Venezuela to the extent that Venezuelans can come out into the Atlantic Ocean and reach parts of our coast. Otherwise they can enter across a couple of rivers and into Guyana as well. And in many instances there are very few soldiers or police patrolling. We do have heightened security presence along sections of our borders, but if we were to have mass movement of migrants, that will be a major challenge for us. And we do have also ongoing situations with the movements of criminals.
As you may recall, we had several attacks during last year, including attacks on Guyanese police and soldiers traversing the river, moving from one point to the other. There is a border river called Kiyuni river which allows for the free passage of people from both countries.
But in this instance, we have had situations where some civilians on the Venezuelan side or fired on our police and soldiers and even in one case, a boat carry election officials and materials for the September 1, 2025 general election. So it's really wait and see mode while paying keen attention to the movement of migrants and criminals across the border.
[00:03:45] Speaker B: All right. With that being said, we understand. I want you to delve a little bit quickly into the history of the Essequibo river, the territory and Venezuela. Remind our listening audiences as to what transpired between Nicolas Maduro, the former President of Venezuela, as it relates to that oil find and what was the debacle that was unfolding between the President of Gaia, your president, and the Venezuelan president. Just remind our listeners.
[00:04:14] Speaker A: Well, this is a long historical battle between the two countries over the Essakiba region, which is about 160,000 square kilometers.
That region consists of rich biodiversity.
It is rich in minerals such as gold, diamonds, possibly commercial deposits of uranium.
It also has oil on the land side of the county of Essocubo. But as you know, there have been huge oil finds offshore the Essequibo region and Guyana in general over the last eight to ten years or so.
So this border controversy dates back to 1899. It was settled via that tribunal that settled the land boundary between then British Guyana and Venezuela.
But somewhere.
And that boundary was actually recognized for about six or so years. And then came the death of one of the legal assistants, Malik Provost, who said that prior to his death that a particular letter shall not be opened until he passes away.
Now, that letter, which no one has been able to produce, even to the International Court of Justice in its hearings and the border controversy purportedly says that there had been collusion between a number of and among a number of members of the tribunal, leading to what Mr. Mali Provost purportedly said was a fraud and illegal award of the magnet resettlement between then British Guyana and Venezuela. And that has lingered on and on for so many years, even at the time of going into Guyana's independence. It was flagged. Then the whole border controversy really emerged again in the late 1960s.
And then we had what was called the Geneva Agreement, which is supposed to have been a free work within which any future concerns about the border could be settled. And so that Geneva Agreement of 1966 on the eve of Guyana's independence provided that framework for a couple of things.
Primarily one, that there be a United nations good officers process that will allow for bilateral talks so that they can settle any controversy.
Note the word controversy as opposed to dispute over the 1899 arbitrary tribunal award. And that lasted for about 50 years, at which time Guyana, when I say Guyana, I mean both government and opposition said that we were basically fed up. Nothing was happening with that process. There was little or no movement. And in keeping with the Geneva Agreements, that controversy was, was transferred by the United Nations Secretary General to the International Court of Justice for Adjudication. And what is the point of adjudication? The point of adjudication is to determine the validity of the 1899 arbitral tribunal award.
And that is what we are now awaiting a decision on because we have had hearings back and forth. There have been legal submissions by both countries. This is notwithstanding the fact that Venezuela has repeatedly said that it does not recognize the icj, that's International Court of Justice, as the mechanism by which this controversy should be settled.
They believe that Guyana and Venezuela should return to the negotiating table. And we had seen over the years a lot of tension from the Venezuelan side by the Nicolas Maduro administration, the deployment of troops near the border.
There was also the movement of military vessels in our waters off the coast of Essacobo. And I think there may have been one or two incursions by air, all of that accompanied by Venezuela's rattling and pushing the line that Essequibo is Venezuela's. But at the same time, Venezuela participated in the ICJ process, which is at the same time stated it did not recognize. So both countries are awaiting the outcome of that decision by the International Court of Justice. In fact, the language has changed from, from controversy, as had been stated in the Geneva Agreement, to one of dispute, which is the word that's been used by the International Court of Justice in all of its deliberations.
We also had efforts being made to ease the tension by St. Vincent and the Grenadines Prime Minister, the then Prime Minister, Ralph Gonzalez. He had arranged for for SELAC and Caricom as well as Brazil and the United nations to meet in St. Vincent.
We had the Argyle Accord which provided a framework for the easing of tensions. But even after then, Venezuela went ahead and did in fact become aggressive. At that point, I think Guyana was able to convince its international partners to that is the United States, the UK and France that they should at least be a little more visible in their commitment to assist Guyana in whatever way it can should there be armed conflict. So we saw US Military enhanced US military cooperation with Guyana, the movement of US aircraft into Guyana's airspace, working along with the Guyana Defence Force aircraft. We also had collaboration between the US Navy and Guyana's Coast Guard. And also France sent its military vessel a couple of times into Guyana's waters.
The UK also sent one of its military vessels to Guyana's waters as not so diplomatic display, as well as establishing a deterrent to Venezuela that should it attempt to engage in any sort of military confrontation. Guyana in fact, has friends to whom it can turn should such a situation arise. So that's basically a long context to where we are today.
[00:11:08] Speaker B: You know, I thank you for that comprehensive insight on what, what transpired, giving us the historical data to show the long standing dispute and feud now based on what is happening on the ground. We understand that the story is developing and again, thank you for that historical information as we look forward to an uncertain future. What is your president's stance now as it relates to even accepting Delsey Rodriguez as the acting president of Venezuela? There is a statement that she put out where she is looking for coexistence with the American people, with the American president.
You know, she's willing to work with them, with her government to establish, you know, working conditions with the American people. What is Dr. Ufanali's position on this? How does he see this, this new and latest development beneficial for Guyana?
[00:12:03] Speaker A: Well, he has not been commenting so much about what has gone on in Venezuela beyond the fact that Diana's priority is its security.
He has not been delving too much into the domestic politics of the country because of course, his focus is dealing with the issue of the situation along the border.
But what it appears as though he is leaning towards, at least that is what he had said in a tweet a couple of days ago.
He's leading towards identifying a couple of things that he thinks can now form the broad free work for democracy in Venezuela and for Venezuela to play its rightful place in its rightful role in the Americas. So he's looking at it for a much broader framework, not confining it to the Guyana, Venezuela border controversy.
At this stage, one gets the impression that Guyana is not in a position or doesn't want to find itself in a situation where it seeks to anger anybody in Venezuela at this time and to create unnecessary tension between the two countries beyond what we have known for decades. Because as I said, this situation is very fluid.
It is fluid to the point that we can see the provocation of armed groups who might be sympathetic to Maduro trying to cross the border and create additional problems for the country. So it is really a balanced position that is being taken by Guyana at this moment. Our if one goes back to the tweet by the president of Guyana about two or three days ago, he says specifically that stability, respect for law and the democratic transition are critical to the future of Venezuela and to the broader Americas. In this regard, Guyana supports efforts that uphold the democratic norms and ensure that the region remains a zone of peace. And Guyana, he says Also welcomes the leadership of the President of the United States in reaffirming shared commitments of freedom, democracy and regional security.
Those are broad elements that the Guyana government has spoken to. Nothing specifically about whether it agrees with the removal of Maduro and taking him to the United States to face trial for drugs and all of that. Nothing to do with expectations about Del C. Rodrigo at this time. I think what Guyana will want to do is to wait it out, seeing the posture of the Dele Rodrigo led administration now and take it from there.
[00:15:06] Speaker B: All right, with that being said, let's take a quick call. Good morning. Respectfully, good morning.
[00:15:10] Speaker C: Good morning.
[00:15:11] Speaker D: Good morning to your erudite guest. You know something? I am tired of this Guyana, Venezuela dispute.
Both Guyana and Venezuela need to grow up.
They need to sit around a table with IDA or both Selak and Caricom as an intermediary and they need to find a workable solution to this and end this dispute. We can't fight over land in the Caribbean. There's enough wealth inside of here for all of our peoples. Guyana, Suriname, Trinidad and Tobago, Venezuela, Venezuela. We have enough wealth here that we can develop this area and the Caribbean islands up north to be an envy of all of the other areas on the planet. Why do we want to fight over two piece of land? Ghana don't even have population to populate all those lands. We can sit down. We might find a Solomon solution where we say, well, okay, a half a quarter would end the story. All right, this is foolish.
[00:16:09] Speaker B: All right. Thank you very much, Eric. Hello. Good morning.
Good morning.
[00:16:13] Speaker C: And to your humble guest here.
[00:16:16] Speaker D: Power comes from the battle of a gun. Right now, China is growing maps of.
[00:16:21] Speaker C: India showing half of India belonging to China. I'll leave it like this. I'll leave it right here.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: All right. With that being said, Dennis, as we. Another call coming through. Hello. Good morning.
[00:16:34] Speaker E: Hello.
[00:16:35] Speaker B: Good morning.
[00:16:36] Speaker E: Good morning.
I would like to the cola before the last one to think of this.
If the Venezuelans came and said they wanted 2/3 of Trinidad, would he agree to that? Because the Venezuelans wanted. They want 2/3 in the last regime, the last regime that's not today's regime, they wanted to claim 2/3 of Guyana.
And I want to know if he will agree that if the Venezuelans come and they say they claim Trinidad, they had that on the agenda. How he will feel if they walk in and they took over here. Thank you.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: All right, your thoughts?
[00:17:26] Speaker A: Well, I think broadly speaking, the fact of the matter is that Diana has said that the time for bilateral negotiations is over for about 50 years. And to go specifically to the first caller's comment about sitting around the table, that is what had been done for 50 years. And Diana said that that is over. And let's go to the icj, which is the highest judicial forum of the United nations, and that has been provided for in the Geneva agreement.
So one looks forward to the ruling and one also looks forward to seeing how Venezuela will react to the ruling, whether they will respect it or they will continue their historical cyber rattling and they try to frustrate investment in the Essequibo region by sending its gunboats and so on into our maritime space, or whether they will allow for a peaceful coexistence and the eventual settlement bilaterally.
That is what you call delimitation of the maritime boundary between Venezuela and Guyana.
[00:18:39] Speaker B: All right, let's take another call. Good morning.
Good morning.
[00:18:42] Speaker C: I doubt Venezuela will give up its claim to 90% of Ghana. Thank you. Will you.
[00:18:50] Speaker B: You see. Okay, let me take this next one. Hello.
[00:18:52] Speaker C: Morning to you, baby. Morning to your guest.
[00:18:54] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:18:55] Speaker C: Yeah, listen, I, I really enjoyed this interview and I want to congratulate the gentleman I disagree with Eric this morning in the area where there was an execution in relation to bilateral and that didn't go well. And to quick my contribution, you all took the, the issue to the US and, and it was resolved partially.
But I want to compliment you all on that part. But the other part too, is your response to these questions where you're not going to get involved in that whole question of the ATRIA guest. I think that's a mature approach and I appreciate the response this morning to all the questions being asked. Congratulations. Really, really good interview.
[00:19:31] Speaker B: All right, thank you very much, buddy.
When we look at the professional and diplomatic stance that Dr. Irfan Ali has taken as it relates to the US intervention, whether unlawful or not, one get a sense that the president of Guyana continues to lobby for democracy, sovereignty of a nation, any actions that are deemed to be lawful, where it push back against drug trafficking, narco trafficking, gun smuggling, humans and all these things. We get that sense of positioning.
Do you have any information there thus far as to whether your president would be seeking audience with Delsey Rodriguez or even Donald Trump as a way forward with pursuing the hydrocarbons and natural resources in Guyana?
[00:20:22] Speaker A: No, I have no information about that. I know that given the intense tension between Guyana and Venezuela over the last few years, Guyana has moved much closer to the United States as its international partner. And we have seen enhanced cooperation in the area of security.
Hydrocarbons and A whole host of other areas.
So I don't think there is a question about US Guyana cooperation. And in a practical sense, both governments, the previous government, before it lost the 2020 elections, had also seen the presence of ExxonMobil in Guyana, the accelerated development of the oil field as part of the overall broader defense mechanism against Venezuela, because that, of course, was regarded as some sort of deterrent. Ultimately, the United States would want to protect its interests in Guyanese.
And we did hear Secretary of State Marco Rubio speak very firmly on this issue when he paid a visit to Guyana last year. He was very categorical, very forthright that if Venezuela made another attempt into Guyanese waters or to attack Guyana, that there would be consequences.
I don't think Guyana could have expected a better reassurance from anyone at that juncture. And it is for that reason I think that Diana will certainly want to take a back seat and not to engage in any bilateral talks with Del C. Rodriguez and her administration at the border question. As I've said before in the program this morning, the question of the border between Guyana, Venezuela is now before the icj and and there is where it shall be until it is settled by way of that decision, there will be no room for that.
Even during the days of Maduro, I think Guyana had taken an open door position that it was willing to talk with Maduro. In fact, they did speak in St. Vincent and the guerillin that was specifically in the border. But now I think if there were to be any talks, it could may just have to be with things and some very minor areas of bilateral cooperation. In the realm of politics, one never says no because politicians are who they are.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: You know, with that being said, all that is playing out geopolitically on the landscape. My morning poll question in Trinidad was whether or not one perceives whether Delsey Rodriguez would work against the the US administration. And oddly enough, I had about 35% of my callers telling me yes, you would, and 65 saying no. From your learned position, you paying attention to things geopolitically, looking at the political landscape within your country, Guyana, outside of that, you pay attention to regional and international politics. What do you anticipate or foresee as a learned individual paying attention to these political luminaries across the globe with the tone of Delsey Rodriguez as it relates to what transpired with her former boss and what she thinks she intends to do, especially with relationships with the U.S.
[00:23:59] Speaker A: Well, I mean, the United States President Donald Trump was very forthright that the United States will run Venezuela now, the Trump administration will not be able to do so in a vacuum. It will need to have interlocutors on the ground in Venezuela to do so. It is virtually branded uttering for them in terms of running another country, especially in such a volatile situation.
So notwithstanding that, I think there will be room for enhanced collaboration between the Trump administration and the Del C. Rodrigo's administration.
In fact, President Trump had said so categorically that he had spoken with Delta Rodriguez. Then we heard Delici Rodriguez stating in very plain words that she is willing to engage with the United States. I know that has caused some internal security rumblings in Venezuela within her administration.
So the dynamics are unfortunate and it can be very unsettling, at least in the coming days and weeks as she seeks to consolidate herself in government and to deal with any sort of possible revolts among people like Dies Dado Cabello, who is a very strong Maduro man. I think both Cabello and Rodriguez were very strong Maduro people. But in the realm of pragmatic politics, one has to find a balance. What is unfolding here, a balance between the US Interests, the safety and security of Venezuelans and the safety and security of the wider Americas through the eyes of the United States and how at the end of the day, politicians can remain in the driving seat in Venezuela.
This is these coming days and weeks are going to be very telling in terms of the future of Venezuela.
[00:26:14] Speaker B: I thank you very much, Dennis, for chatting with me this morning and for sharing insight into Dr. Ufunz Ali's position as it relates to what unfolded on the third of this month. I thank you very much and I look forward to chatting with you again in the not too distant future. Have yourself a great day, sir.
[00:26:32] Speaker A: You too.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: All right, take care.
[00:26:34] Speaker A: Bye.
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