Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, Instant feedback. Accountability, the all new talk radio Freedom 106.5. Good morning and welcome back to Freedom 106.5 FM. Davey Murray is my name. If you're just joining us, it is the Morning Rumble and we are chatting with Ms. Jamila Harris, economist and researcher. We want to talk about MYLAT and other youth programs that are at risk. Good morning to you, Jamila, and thank you very much for your patience. Good morning.
[00:00:26] Speaker B: Hi, David.
[00:00:27] Speaker C: Good morning. Good morning to your listeners.
[00:00:29] Speaker A: We see what is happening on the social issues that are affecting Trinidad and Tobago, especially with our youths. Just in the news, we saw another youth lost his life in a vehicle reported stolen.
I remember hearing about this MYLAT program, among other programs that has now been disbanded or suspended by this government.
What are the risk involved with government suspension of these programs that seem somehow to be assisting youths even though there are some sectors of society say it was a waste of time. What are your thoughts?
[00:01:10] Speaker C: Thanks, Evie.
So I guess the first thing I would say, and that is it creates a sense of uncertainty because of how the news is relayed.
We have been told by the Minister of Defence that the program has been suspended pending a review this month. So we should know at the end of this month what happens. There are two things about that that I want to flag.
One, we've heard a similar thing with the Civilian Conservation Corp.
That program was also suspended pending a review.
And the next news we heard, which was July last year, was that staff was being terminated.
So I think in that sort of context, it makes a lot of people uneasy. The second thing around uncertainty is that there are a lot of young men who would have been preparing to start the program and that opportunity, they don't know what that would look like anymore because as far as they know, it has been suspended. And I think there's a real problem because if we think about other groups in society, we would be very concerned.
Imagine if SCA students were preparing for SCA and then in February, a month before the exam, they were told that the exam was going to be suspended. The whole country would be in uproar. And my point on that is you don't do that to young people and you especially don't do that to the young people who are we would consider to be most vulnerable and at risk.
[00:02:48] Speaker A: My whole thought on the issue as it relates to those programs is, let's take mylat, for example. There are some programs under government's purview where you're expecting financial returns. All right? So when I Looked at the reason for the suspension, they said the financial viability.
What do you think they meant by the financial viability of the MYLAT program?
[00:03:18] Speaker C: So I mean, this is where I put on my economist hat, right? And we think about financial viability and we think about dollars and cents.
When you have a program like this, or any program for that matter, the government should be doing some sort of cost benefit analysis. And this is where they try to have an estimate of what the cost is, but also an estimate of what the benefit might be.
With these types of social programs, the cost is extremely easy to determine because the cost to the government would be how much they're spending. And from what I understand from what the minister said is because the residential program that makes it so expensive.
So it's not just the training aspect, but some of the boys were board and they have to consider the accommodation, the food, etc.
So we know what it cost is, but it's extremely difficult to measure the benefits in a financial sense.
And this is the problem that we have. We call it in economic sense of a market price. And I'll explain what that means when you go to Massey, you know, or true value or whatever, wherever you do your shopping, you know how much a bottle of water costs, you know how much a box of milk costs, right? There's a market price for that. There are some things that we cannot value in terms of social programs.
We cannot value what it means for that young man who goes through my lot and has his life completely turned around. So you've just given it. You started our conversation with an example of someone who lost their life. For a young man who's completing mylat, that program could save his life because it could help him to turn away from a life of crime. How do we value that? We can't place a monetary value on that. We might even want to be more specific and say someone who goes through that program might get five CXC passes from the last date. About 60, 60% of them end up with a full certificate. So it's not an insignificant amount, right?
That person that goes on to get a job, they might pay taxes as a benefit to society.
They might become your next mechanic, your next electrician. That is a benefit to society. But those benefits do not occur at the time of the program.
So it is not fully costed and it's difficult to cost it. So when we think about the financial viability, we also need to think about, okay, fine, I'm going to push it a little bit, right? What if that Young man ends up in a life of crime, we're going to have to pay for the cost of incarceration, but the state is going to have to pay the attorneys in terms of the trial. There's so many costs that will be involved.
And I don't think that that is necessarily being seen and appreciated because it's not easy to put a value on those things. It's very easy to say this program is costing us.
I don't know. So I would call a number. But X dollars per per student or per trainee who's enrolled.
But what is the benefit? And I think the decision makers really need to sit down and think through what the benefits to society are. Because it's not just a benefit to these young men. All of us benefit from this program.
[00:06:39] Speaker A: A couple things.
There was an interview done by an individual.
I think it's one of the lecturers at mylat speaking to a young man.
This young man no doubt.
Came off the streets and entered the program.
And for two years he was so grateful for the program because in his respected opinion, it saved his life.
He says, sir, there's a true story I'm telling you here.
And this is in the MYLAT program.
What I gonna do when I go back outside when this thing finish, what gonna happen?
He says, because I feel this program saved my life. Because when, when I outside there, he says, you see these tattoos on my skin? Apparently the gang initiation thing is how to tat yourself and stuff. There is call me to kill people. There's called me to commit crime crimes.
But all you ain't here, boy. All you this whole we dong boy, sir. But then what do I do when I leave? And it begs to differ.
Well, not to differ, sorry, but the question where such a structured program where this individual was now dead because he left the program. It was finished. There was. He was successful in the program. He felt, you know, reinvigorated, you know, a renewed sense of spirit.
And of course, in exiting the program, life of crime caught up with him and he's no longer here with us.
But his words resonate as that interview. I can probably send it to you. But the point I'm making is this. With a program such as mylat, how can we streamline what I would want to term the aftermath that we can. I mean, from one product. How can government assist persons, as you rightfully mentioned, with if they. If they get the full certificate of five passes or six, to have them coming as interns in various sectors parts of society, whether it be government or the Corporate world, you know, where they can engage businesses, business owners or even governmental departments if they have the space to pull these ones in under an internship program. And if they perform well during the internship, then they put them on probation and then they have a job, as you rightfully say, contributing if they didn't get a full certificate. But they end up in TechVoc where they handling cupboards, mechanics. Where can we channel them into. Into areas and into society where they can contribute. Because I don't want to call names per se, but the housing sector, HDC needs plumbers, masons, carpenters, you know, on a daily basis. There's rental properties by government that needs maintenance. You know, what structure in place to help persons out of the program, coming out of it to get into something else. Because this young man was screaming for it, but there was nothing.
[00:09:40] Speaker C: I think that's a really excellent question, Devi. And I want to touch on two things. Like one, one is about the program itself and reform. And I think what you've mentioned here, and I would say, like, if there's anybody who's listening to this program this morning who is, you know, sitting has the air of those who make decisions, reform is not a bad thing, right? So if you're seriously looking at the program, one of the things we should be thinking about is how can we make the program better?
And that question on transition is one where there could be improvement. It could be improvement if there's more connection between the employment and the training.
So you could sort of smooth that through apprenticeships, on the job training, but also through mentorship. Because these young men, they leave a very structured environment where they have adults who they can look up to, who show them respect, who offer them discipline, and is for some of them is like going from 100 to 0 or to 10 or to 20. And that's something we have to be cognizant of. I'm not like nd mylat program to prison, but the research that we have in the literature, so I'm an academic, so I'll draw on that. The research that we have in the literature points to recidivism for those who leave prison, often for minor offenses, because when they leave, even though they turn their life around, they go back into a situation where they might be vulnerable and they could get caught up again. And they would end up. And they would end up in prison again.
And you can see some similarities where if you leave the Mylar program, where you have structure, you have that discipline, you have opportunities, and you come back out and it's just taken away. And oftentimes we say that these young people are at risk. And we use that word, at risk because they are at risk. So being in the MYLAP program doesn't mean that they're no longer at risk. It just means we've given them something different for two years, but when they come back out, they still go back in a situation that make them at risk. Because being at risk is not an individual characteristic. It's about the situation that you're existing in.
The second point I like to make on that is I think it's a general problem, that transition from education or training to work. And we see that not just with vocational, but all the way up to university training. We have a lot of graduates in this country and most of them cannot find a job in their field. And most of them are what we would call in economics, underemployed because they work for a job that does not actually require a degree or pay them less than what they might expect as a university graduate.
So I think that is a fundamental challenge that we have because we have created skilled people. And I say skilled, I use the word very broadly because I think a plumber is equally skilled as a university graduate. They're just skilled in different ways.
So we've created a skilled workforce, but we haven't created the jobs that could absorb them.
And this is across the board. So that experience where someone from Mygaard comes out and they're feeling, you know, they're feeling motivated, they're feeling ambitious, they're feeling looked after and they can't find a job.
That same experience might happen with a graduate. The difference is the graduate is coming into a situation where they could probably rely on mom and Pops to help them with that transition.
And an at risk youth coming out of Mylet most likely might not be able to rely on mom and Pops. And that sense of belonging will come from the gangs and they will go back into it. So I do think that is a conversation for reform and not a conversation about suspension.
[00:13:44] Speaker A: But do we really believe in reform at all? Because we talk about it.
But Jamila, how do you feel about someone coming into your personal space to build some cupboards?
And that person was recommended by a friend. You know, he's a really good carpenter and he pulls up and he's building cupboards for you and you, you comfortable? You may, you know, he seems decent and he's performing well.
So this cupboard building is taking a week. He says, okay, so he's took out the old infrastructure. You've been there. He has been transparent through and through. You give him the money, he go, he gets the material. He shows you your bills and you are satisfied because he's bringing the stuff. And he's saying, this is what I went. He went, he got it sometime the same day. Oh, God, I need to get some screws. You know, Jamila, I would need a pong of screws. You say, okay, well, here's $100. Go get it. He goes, he get his screws. It cost him $27.50. Brings back your change. He said, jamila, hold this. He said, but what you get is cruise. Yeah, it was a little more, a little less than I thought. All right, so hold on. And he's been very transparent with you. But halfway through this job, somebody says, gil, you are here in your place.
You know, he went, he was in prison for so and so. He did end up accused of raping this little girl down the road and he was a thief and that some last. And he think he did breaking. And then they lock him up. He learned that in, in jail, you are he in your place.
You none the wiser. You going in the back. You're not even studying every. You come back every day. This is day number number three in the project. And nothing is misplaced. You are comfortable.
How do you feel after that? Getting that information from a good friend now all the time, the man doing a good job. As a matter of fact, the referral was so good because you saw the work the pay on. The man is proving himself, he's reformed. But then this information comes to light and when you look at it, check it out for real, you realize, nah boy, information is credible. How do you treat with it after that? How do you personally feel? Now, I'm not asking you this question because I want you to give me the right answer, but I want you to really give me an honest one. In the sense, you know, honestly, you might give him the chance. Yes, but how does it make you feel inside thereafter, knowing this information?
[00:15:57] Speaker C: Yeah, I think excellent question, David.
[00:16:01] Speaker A: So I think that not the correct answer, the research economist answer. Give me the layman taxi, taxi driver. You, you know, working in a store and you discover this, or you with some, you know, person in our office somewhere, CEO, business person somewhere, and you discover that, how do you feel?
[00:16:21] Speaker C: Right? So I think for any, anyone who receives that information, you know, you would, you would rethink the. The person.
You might rethink the relationship.
I think the crime that was committed would be important to that sort of thought process.
So, for example, if, you know, if it's a sexual assault case or something like that, and this is where we should have that sort of registry, right? Just to sort of put a, a tangent on that. So you should be able to go and check that because, you know, like that, that's, that's kind of different if, if there's a, a young man and somebody say, let me go on a run day and see this car, you know, that's, that's different in terms of the bodily harm involved in, in different types of crime. So you'll feel away.
I, I think that the geek Samaritan in me might want to, you know, carry on your relationship, especially if this person has demonstrated themselves, have changed their life.
But you would approach it in a different way. You know, you might be a bit more watchful over the person. You might leave your keys hanging around. But the point that I want to make, and I'm not saying it's an easy decision, right, I don't think it's an easy decision to make, but we are living in a country where there's high levels of crime and to some extent increasing.
I will have more people like this.
We'll have more people who commit crime because the numbers are just telling us that more people are committing crime. The numbers are also suggesting that it's probably more people committing crime at a younger age.
And we have to deal with these people in terms of reintegrating them into society. Right.
And I'll give you two examples. I used to live in the uk. I studied in the uk, and there's a program. Well, it's not even a program, it's just a company, a private sector company.
And you would think it's extremely hilarious because they work on shoe repairs and cutting keys and they absorb former prisoners into that business. So you're going to have your key cut and as a former convict, cutting your key for you. Right. And the program has been widely successful. And it's a private, private guy. And now he's been asked by the government to help them with their program to help reduce recidivism and help prisoners be better integrated into society.
The second case I want to give is very different, but it shows an example of how a country could absorb people who we know have committed crimes. And as a case of Sierra Leone, I used to live in Sierra Leone for a number of years as well.
And most people associate Sierra Leone with blood diamonds in the movie. And that civil war with the child soldiers, right. It was a harsh war for the country for 10 years.
And a lot of people were involved, either as a perpetrator or a victim.
And to move past that, you can. You can lock up everybody. They had to agree to forgive and they forgave. And when I was living in Sierra Leone, like, I would see people and they would be driving the motorbikes. They call them okadas. And one of my friends said, yes, he was a child soldier, but he's. He's in society now and he's an Okada driver. You get on the back of his motorbike and he would take you from point A to point B. And you have to have the trust that he has changed his life and he has decided to reintegrate into society.
I don't think that everybody is that way.
And there will be people who would abuse that trust.
But we can't shun everyone who is. Who goes through the prison system. What I will say is, if we want to get there as a society, our prison system has to move away from just being about punishment to being about rehabilitation. And I don't think we are anywhere there.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: There we do have a proper correctional facility. And notice the term I'm using, correctional facility. You know, I see them building things all over the place. And I think the time has come when I look at international correctional facilities and I say that, you know, to show you that I think we need to be there where prisoners are segregated and, you know, they are pooled in different areas and sections of the prison system. Because, as you mentioned, I remember another prison story.
I was the emcee for maybe about three years. The calypso competition happening at the Royal Jail in Port of Spain up on Frederick Street. And, you know, I used to ask a lot of questions. And I remember one year I was in there and there was this. This young man and I noticed he was very reserved, you know, not just shy, but he jumpy. He real jumpy. You're talking. He was out there irrel. Jumpy and stuff. And he was among some of them, what is called lifers, and they went wrong. So I see it was a lifer and thing they said as a person will never come out of prison unless in a body bag or the state. They would have served a life sentence for many years. And now they. They're 88 and that kind of age, according to the thing. But most of the time, no. And they have him, but he's not alive for. They say, no, but he's sick. So I'm like, he's sick. I think in Mental right.
Not knowing he contacted hiv that of course blossomed into AIDS because there's no treatment, he wasn't accessing it and he got that in the prison system.
Why did he get into the prison system? He stole some mangoes from a yard owned by somebody and he stole the mangoes and stole some tool to put the mangoes in a bag and whatever and police held him and he got.
He was sent to not. He wasn't serving a prison sentence, you know, he was arrested and he was supposed to be in the remand section.
They buggered this. This boy was about 7, not 7, 18 at the time. When I met him and I saw him he was 19 and by the time I went back he died.
He died, he passed away.
Organ failure they called it or whatever. But the point I'm making, he went into the prison system and for teeth and mangoes and as shares them, shares some small tool.
And there was no way to separate his crime from those who, what we call in Trinidad and to hardened criminals in society.
All right, persons who interfere with children, persons who kill people who are accused of murder, some of the most heinous crimes in this country.
He was among persons who were in there because they didn't pay their child maintenance.
And I was told that when he got in they say bring him here.
And one officer who wanted to not give his identity, he said he heard the screams of that child.
Well, he was 18 so he's now he's not on YTC, he's here.
But I said so he said I couldn't assist because that part of the prison wasn't controlled by me. I couldn't go down there.
And this was Pre dawn hours, 1:00am, 2:00am in the morning, this child, this young man screaming. And since then he has been a shell of himself and today he's not here.
So our prison system, which I see mylat as a savior from preventing persons from getting into that this government decides to pull it back because of money. But then when we look at the primary school and secondary school system, do we not hope that these young men and women doing SCA getting into this act come out and be constructive members of society? Can we put a cost factor to what we pay teachers, cleaners and guidance counselors and the faculty, the staff, the maintenance of the school? Can we put a cost factor to that? Then why are we putting a cost factor and looking for economic viability and stability when it comes to programs like CCC and mylat? Why are we doing that? We have persons prominent in society that pass through the CCC program. One SOCA artist, I know he's a very, very big SOCA artist today, but he went through that program. I want you, as an economic and a researcher, economist and a researcher to tell me, did government.
Are we earning as a society when we look for financial viability in the outdoor, in the outlook of these social programs, which clearly is doing well for our society?
[00:25:26] Speaker C: So I.
Did government make a mistake or not? I think it's a subjective question because different governments have different policy priorities.
And I might disagree with this policy priority, which I do, because I don't think my lot should be suspended.
I think if there's any sort of change, it shouldn't come with a suspension. It should come with an ongoing review and a gradual transition to something new. Because I fear that a suspension is a word now that might mean it doesn't come back.
But I think what you are raising here is a point about the communication between our politicians and the population.
Because when our population, when our politicians, sorry, campaign for elections, they don't tell us about their policies in enough detail.
And we do not ask them because we are caught in this blind support to a particular party on one side or other or the other.
And we don't really question the priorities of the government.
We haven't had a real conversation in terms of visualizing the type of society we would like to see.
So I'll ask you and your listeners, right, can we accept the principle that in a good society, all children who we assume to be born free of their own era should have broadly similar chances of succeeding in life, depending on their talents and effort?
And I think most people would say yes to that because if you think about a newborn baby, we just want the best for that baby. We love up that baby. Oh, baby, so cute, right?
But somewhere along the road between that newborn baby, it could be as early as age 8, age 10, age 9, age 16, children start to look different and they start to look different because of what they have exposure to. And oftentimes it's no fault of their own.
Someone born into a tough family didn't choose that, nor did someone born into a more stable environment.
But I think as a government, your responsibility is to ensure that regardless of where that child is born, they have the best chance to realize their talents and their potential.
And those talents and potential and potentials might not necessarily be academic.
And I'll say this to you, Davey, I am from Mover, right.
And I have a PhD from the University of Oxford.
[00:28:24] Speaker A: Congrats well, thank you.
[00:28:28] Speaker C: That is because I had access to free education. I would not have been able to do that. I got a scholarship, right? I got a scholarship and I went to the UK to study.
The government provided that through the taxpayers. But that was my gift. My gift was academics and I excelled in academics. But some people, that is not their gift. Why can't we support them too?
Why can't we support them if their gift is with their hands and they're a plumber or an electrician or hairdresser or seamstress? We should be able to support them in the same way that we support our academic talent, we should be able to support our sports people, our musicians and I think this is where the priority of the government is not in line with what I would like to see.
[00:29:20] Speaker A: I'm very happy that you mentioned that. Let me take this call quickly. Good morning.
Hello.
[00:29:26] Speaker B: Good morning Mr. Devi. Good morning and good morning to your honored guests.
I hear you and yes, I, as a Society I agree 100% that we have to have systems, mechanisms, policies in place and so on for the development of all our people, et cetera. But I hear you talk about the support of moms and pops when some of these guys get out of the program.
And I am wondering is it that we are not dealing with some of these issues from the source and some of these programs is just a reaction and then we say the default is if you don't have them, well then default alternative is crime.
I mean how did we end up, for example, with institutional single mothers and all? I am saying we need to address these societal problems from this source, the root, from beginning, from primary school because we have, I mean we have this primary school. Why can't we have in the schools? I know, remember when the junior sect first started, they had skills and all those, a wide range of skills activities at all these schools right now in the country of a shortage of technical people, of tradesmen and whatever and you're hearing that people can't find jobs so there's a disconnection right there. So I am saying we need to rationalize all these programs. We have used the school system as it is right now to reintroduce these skills training. You have community development, you have ytp, you have Servol, a number of other options, you have Alta plus. You could expand the school system and get back into post primary education which can involve skills training and a whole range of other things can be done which can be cost effective and beneficial to society.
[00:31:19] Speaker A: Thank you. Appreciate. Listen to this. 1.
[00:31:21] Speaker D: Good morning, Mr. Davy.
[00:31:23] Speaker A: Good morning, ma'.
[00:31:24] Speaker C: Am.
[00:31:24] Speaker D: Mr. Davy. I had someone who was doing work in my yard and then a friend told me that he was in jail.
That didn't make no difference to me. The man was doing a very good job and I ended up being very honest. And I say, here now, boy, I heard he was in jail. I said, but here, whatever you went to jail for, right? You just continue to be the best that you could be in your, in your field of work and don't ever try to get yourself back into trouble.
[00:31:57] Speaker B: That's it.
[00:31:59] Speaker A: Listen, Jamila, we'll have to talk again.
I look as early as next week as we continue to look at these challenges facing our youth. I thank you very much and I see what our conversation brought out. That lady was very honest. She talked to the person, but she kept them. So thank you very much, Jamila. I do appreciate it. And again, congrats on your academic success and I will see you next weekend. I'm gonna petition my producer to get you back next week.
[00:32:24] Speaker C: Thanks very much.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
[00:32:27] Speaker A: Take care. The best insight Instant feedback. Accountability. The all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.
