[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new talk radio Freedom 106.5.
[00:00:14] Speaker B: Welcome back. As I said to you joining us now, he's been with us before. Let's welcome back to our program director of the police Complaints Authority, Mister David west. Good morning to you. Nice to have you with us here this morning.
[00:00:26] Speaker A: Hi, good morning Satish. Thank you for having me. And morning to your listeners and your viewers who are streaming this podcast.
[00:00:34] Speaker B: We haven't spoken for quite some time and a lot has happened in the interim. One of the more recent developments that has generated some discussion the PCA providing to the police service, I think it's eight body cameras or something like that, and that has restarted the entire discussion of greater accountability. And how do we get that from the police and the pros and cons of what transpired? Let's get from you, why, what was the rationale behind the police Complaints authority providing eight body cameras to the police service?
[00:01:10] Speaker A: Right. So Satish, as you know, we are always striving to improve our investigative techniques and our reach with the public.
As you know, we have our app, which is the first app to be produced that are used by civilian oversight bodies in Trinidad and also in the western hemisphere, because I have been to conferences in the US where they have not, they don't have body cameras for their civilian investigators. So the app was a great success. You know, we have had over 8000 downloads, we've had over 4000 complaints via the app. So based on that, we decided that to further our reach and our accountability and transparency to the public, we would have our investigators, when appropriate, use body cameras. Now, the body camera is a fantastic tool. It is very useful. It gained the confidence of the public that when you are doing something, it is transparent. It also guards the investigator against unwanted allegations against them because the camera, of course, picks up everything and it cannot be tampered with. You know, the camera we have, you know, it has 16 hours of battery life, it's only 145 grams, it's waterproof, it has GPS capabilities.
We can also live stream back to the PCA. So if an investigator is going out on the field, he can live stream back to the PCA and we can see what he's doing and all the interactions. Of course, the camera also captures the whole picture, which makes it easier to document, which makes it easier to document interactions with the public, which you don't have to keep on reminding yourself and taking notes. So it's a fantastic tool.
[00:03:11] Speaker B: Satish it would seem that way, but we've been having a raging discussion about body cams and how they work and who's turning them off and who not using them and all that kind of thing. Investigators aren't necessarily, correct me if I'm wrong, but in my opinion, and probably you'll let me know whether my opinion is wrong, investigators aren't the problem.
The problem exists with police officers who are carrying out their duties and who do things that are questionable and then find them the subject of investigations by the PCA and Professional Standards Bureau and others. So giving these eight cameras to the investigators sounds good, but are we really focusing on the problem that exists, which is when police bust down somebody door and police officers run into a room and shoot a couple people, as we had in move on somewhere. Police run in, there are five people sitting down. They get one gun, they shoot everybody and kill them. And then it turns into an investigation. If you don't have body cameras there, are we really addressing the problem that exists because investigators going about their job, from what I, what I'm familiar with when I was out on the field covering investigators. Yeah, no problem. They face a no gunfire. To say that, you need to question their split second decisions and all those kinds of things. So what is the information that we expect to get with investig eight investigators using these body cameras?
[00:04:41] Speaker A: Right. But you see, you hit the needle on the head and you didn't even realize it.
[00:04:45] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:04:46] Speaker A: What the body camera does, it allows for the evidence to be taken, caught. So, for example, if you have the GPS, right, you say that the police run through somebody's house and shot somebody. Well, if you remember the Jelani Romney matter, it was in rich plain in Diego Martin, where you had a lot of hills. And remember Jelani was on top of a staircase. The police came down to the police on the bottom of the staircase. And of course, the allegation was that Jelani shot at the police officer, where in fact, it was the officer who, who shot the other officer. If we had what happens and when the witness comes like Jelani and shows us exactly what happened, we can then use the GPS technology from the camera to show exactly where Jelani was standing, where exactly the police were standing. And we could show the trajectory of the bullet so he could further give better evidence to support his version of events. All right. And also, too, it allows for the video evidence, allows for the corroboration of the witness statements. So what you get now is a watertight case against the officers who were involved in the police shooting or whatever, whatever indiscretion they were being investigated for. So the cameras are very important. You know, it tightens up the evidence against them. Right. And also, too, you get increased public trust. So you see, when the public sees the officers, when the public sees the investigators come in with the body worn cameras, they can feel safe knowing what they are saying is being recorded, so nothing can be twisted to be used against them and vice versa. The investigator can use that to show that they never did anything untoward against the witness. So it is very useful. Satish and it will take investigations. It will take prosecutions to a different level, where we have digitized evidence which cannot be tampered with.
[00:06:49] Speaker B: What is the, I'm assuming for this to reach where it has, there must have been discussions with the police commissioner and with the police service, the police social welfare association and all those, because they've been raising issues about it for quite some time.
Are they all in support of this move? The police commissioner and the Police Social Welfare association and others?
[00:07:18] Speaker A: Satish the PCA is an independent civilian organization.
In terms of our investigative techniques, we do not have to get permission or corroborate with the police service to tell them what we are doing. We will go about doing our investigations, how we feel fit and what is best for our investigators and what is the best evidence we can gather in our investigations. So that is, that is what we are doing. We don't, we do not have to, you know, ask for cooperation, ask permission to use body cameras. Anybody can take a. Can take a picture.
[00:07:57] Speaker B: These investigators are police investigators or investigators with the PCA. Police investigators.
[00:08:02] Speaker A: No, these are, these are, these are civilisa. These are investigators by the PCA.
[00:08:07] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:08:08] Speaker A: These are civilian. Civilian investigators that work for the PCA.
[00:08:13] Speaker B: That's a clarification that is necessary because discussing it with some people, some people are of the opinion that these are police investigators that the PCA.
[00:08:22] Speaker A: We have satish. We have no police officers working in the PCA.
[00:08:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. You've said that.
[00:08:28] Speaker A: No investigators, no secretary, no clerk, no nothing. No finance, no lawyers, nobody. It says specifically in the act, you cannot be a police servant, TTPS officer, and work in the PCA because it's a conflict of interest.
[00:08:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:44] Speaker A: You see, and we are a transparent organization.
[00:08:48] Speaker B: Yeah, you've said that to me on numerous times in the various interviews that we've had. But it's a clarification that I think is necessary because there are people who are honestly, and maybe because the way the story was headlined or whatever else are of the opinion that the PCA buy eight cameras for eight police investigators to do their job. And there are somebody just sent a question asking, well, how many investigators are there any police service? So clarifying that these are PCA investigators gives more clarity to the discussion. And what you're saying now makes more sense to people who were of the opinion that this was part of the police service and everything else in that this is to ensure that the PCA investigations into allegations against police officers carry with it a greater level of accountability. And you can see exactly how it makes sense. It really does. And talking about the GPs and all those other things fit nicely into the discussion now.
So now that we have this, this additional piece of technology for the investigators, what can the nation expect?
[00:09:55] Speaker A: Sorry, I didn't get the last part.
[00:09:57] Speaker B: What kind of nation expect from these investigations from the PCA? Are they going to be speeded up or what else? Tell us some more what the PCA expects to get out of this initiative.
[00:10:08] Speaker A: Well, as I said, we will get enhanced accountability because it helps the investigators become more transparent and could be held for their, accountable for their actions during the investigations.
I'm said that there's more objective evidence in that the events would be real time, okay, and it would not be. Instead of, you know, you're going to go into a house, for example, and you're trying to remember where the bedroom was, where the kitchen was, where it shouldn't take place. You can video that evidence. So when you come back, you can then write a proper report and you can detail the report, which it will bring clarity to the investigator when he is doing their investigations.
You have increased public trust because of course it shows transparency of what we are doing. It also helps training and education. So when we see the investigator interviewing a witness and whatever techniques he's using, when it comes back, the authority can view it and decide whether or not the investigator was too aggressive, he was too passive, or what should have been done to it is helping the investigator get the best evidence. It also helps him against protection against false allegations that the investigator did something wrong. Because the body camera, of course, indicates, and it's live, it shows everything was happening. And this is important you get better prosecutions. Under our evidence act in Trinidad Tobago, video and audio evidence are admissible in court. That's why you have CCTV footage being admissible. So you get the best evidence from live footage because it doesn't tell a lie. It is what it is. And the cameras are tamper proof. The cameras cannot be hacked or anything like that. So this is where. And they are encrypted. So this is why the camera is so important.
And also, too. And finally, you know, it could also be used as a de escalation tool, because when you go to angry mob and you ask them questions about what is, what just transpired with the police involved shooting, when they see the investigator with the body camera, that would then say, listen, let me not behave in an uncivil manner and let me answer the investigators questions truthfully and honestly.
So this is what we want. We want greater effectiveness, transparency, accountability in civilian oversight, and that is what we get with the body worn cameras.
[00:12:33] Speaker B: Let's talk a bit about the workload of the PCA for this year from January to the present. What has been happening? The last time we spoke, you told me about the numerous avenues that people have now to get in touch with the PCA and how that has. You've seen more people interacting with the PCA, coming forward to lodge their complaints and so on. So from. Let's. Let's take it from the beginning of the year at the present, um, what has the workload been? Have we been seeing the trends continuing as they were? Have we had more instances involving police officers that need investigations? What's. What's going on?
[00:13:10] Speaker A: At least I can tell you the workload has increased. Our investigators and legal department and all the PCA have been under increased, increased workload. For example, I could tell you complaints by division from January to the 1 May, I have figures. In Central Division, we had 71 complaints. Northern Division, 84, southern Division, 50, Western Division, 26. Port of Spain, 37, northeastern, 24. Eastern, 37 complaints. Tobago, 20.
Southwestern, 21. And we've had 44 complaints from unknown divisions. Our number of complaints from, I could say from our financial year, from January, from September 2022 to October 2023, we've had 713, compared with the following with the previous financial year of 569. So you see how much it's gone up.
[00:14:15] Speaker B: Without going into the integrated detail, obviously, are we seeing increases in certain types of complaints or are they across the board, or what are the more prevalent complaints that continue to be made right.
[00:14:34] Speaker A: In the criminal. In criminal matters involving police officers, we have this.
We have police involved shootings, prevalent. We have assaults.
Assaults are present, prevalent, and misbehaving public office shooting with intent.
For disciplinary matters, we have discreditable conduct, neglect of duty and unlawful exercise of authority.
[00:15:12] Speaker B: There was just. It just popped into my mind, so I said, I'll ask you about it. Recently, the minister of national security went to parliament and he said that in the past five years, there were instances where persons who were issued legal firearms found themselves in some sort of issue. And he highlighted that 40 something of those, I believe, came from the protective services either misplacing their gun or misuse of their firearm or something along those lines. Are those cases among the ones that the PCA is investigating? Do you have instances of those police officers and so on misusing their firearms?
[00:15:56] Speaker A: No, we don't have that. We don't have those types of matters. What we do have and what we've seen an increase of ammunition with the markings, ttps and in some cases TTDF. So there has been a little increase in ammunition belonging to the protective services that have been found at police involved shooting sites.
[00:16:25] Speaker B: And is, is that within the jurisdiction of the police complaints authority to look into matters like those?
[00:16:32] Speaker A: It's. I can't say yes or no on that question, Satish. I mean, that involves a deeper investigative manner which we are still investigating. So I can't give an answer on that right now because it's still under investigation.
[00:16:46] Speaker B: It's a tough one, because on one hand, you have these things being found all over the place at crime scenes, nonetheless, where you have the markings of police and what appears to be police and defense force. But when, when questioned, the police and defense force say that they put their hands up in the air and say, well, listen, that's not ours. All of our ammunition is accounted for, which, which leaves the general public in a quagmire because you have this thing, it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck. But the people who own the doc pen telling you that, it's not my doc, you know, so you really don't know what to think and how do these things happen? So, and I understand the nuances that you speak about, about a deeper investigation and everything else that you may not necessarily be able to speak to, as the police complaints authority tell us about when it comes to successful completion of investigations and forwarding to the relevant authorities to take action, what, what has been the track record of the police complaints authority? Are you settling more matters? Are your investigations coming to a close? In more matters, what's happening?
[00:18:02] Speaker A: Well, we are getting, we are getting more initial reports and we are getting more that have been turned into more complaints. Okay. That is, that is increased.
We also have matters that have been going to the DPP and cop that are also on the increase. So, for example, in 2020 to 2021, we had 45 matters go to the cop and the same amount of matters go to the cop for 21 22, but for 22 23, we had 95 matters going to the cop. And so far for this year, we have 37 matters already going to the cop, and we are only now in May. So which seems to suggest that we would beat easily the 2020 to 2022 figures in the DPP.
We had 19 matters. In 2020 to 2021 go to the DPP.
In 2021 to 2022, there were 26 matters we sent to the DPP.
2022 to 2023, there were 20. So that was a reduction. So far for the year, we have eight matters that have gone to the DPP.
So the figures are going up or consistent in some matters with the DPP department.
[00:19:23] Speaker B: Yeah. So, I mean, I know that the police Complaints authority would track what happens to these matters when you send them across to the commissioner of police and the DPP. Do you have statistics to say? Well, after handing over how many of these matters were successfully prosecuted, persons were brought to justice one way or the other. Do you have those statistics?
[00:19:49] Speaker A: No. Unfortunately, after we make a recommendation for either whatever action to take place, that is where our remit ceases. However, the amendment, the amendment that was done in 2020 and 2021 allowed us to ask for, allowed us to ask for a status update. And I can tell you that the cop has been prosecuting matters that we have sent over to them because we have been getting requests for our investigators to give evidence in matters. So that has happened regarding the DPP and the prosecution. Unfortunately, we have not had as many requests or asking for more documents or more information with that which lends to the fact that, you know, the DPP's department has not yet prosecuted many matters. I know they have done one or two matters, but it has not been many matters that they have prosecuted.
[00:20:55] Speaker B: I've made requests, and I'll probably make a couple more for us to have the DPP come and sit with us, because I think sometimes the DPP needs to give his side of the story as to what's going on with some of these investigators. We were told recently that he got a whole number of staff, I think it's 21 of those who sent his office or whatever else. But we really need sometimes to sit and speak with the head of the office to find out, well, what is the process? What happens? Why do things take so long in some instances? Why do some seem to be expedited and everything else? And we're coming close to the end of our interview here. So I know some time ago we had spoken about some of the changes that you would have liked to see take place so that it could enhance the capabilities of the PCA and persons who may have missed those discussions. And probably you can give us an update of what's going on when it comes to those discussions. What are some of the things that you believe the PCA needs at this point in time to do a better job than you've been doing?
[00:21:59] Speaker A: I think, you know, Satish, after dealing with the act for over ten years, I believe that the PCA now has become a body that needs to be able to give finality to complainants complaints. So I think that in certain matters, you know, we should be able to prosecute summary matters or simple matters to begin with, you know, so it will relieve the DPP and the police from doing that aspect, and we can then take the matters to court and prosecute our own matters. That would greatly give, give the public, you know, some satisfaction that, you know, something is going to be done at the end of the day, their complaint.
[00:22:50] Speaker B: Anything else?
[00:22:55] Speaker A: No, I think, you know, that is, that's a big one. And I think if we could, if we can, you know, get those powers, it would go a long way. You know, I don't, I'm not an advocate for, you know, making targets that I cannot keep or it will be difficult to keep. So I think that would be a nice target to go for.
[00:23:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I know that whenever we speak, you are up to the ball when it comes to statistics, and you've given us a lot to consider about some of the strides that have been made by the PCA in dealing with matters. The increased, should I say, participation or reference by the public to the PCA suggests as well that the public's impression, trust in the PCA is growing, because when people are confronted with matters related to police officers, it could be a challenging, intimidating thing, because we've heard the horror stories of persons having issues with police officers and not going necessarily the way one would want it to go. Just probably a final is there a, when it comes to police officers and issues of personal natures?
Because we've seen some of those play themselves out in ways that resulted in death and all these kinds of things. Do we have those still being reported? Is there an increase in them, in reports against police officers involved in domestic disputes?
[00:24:39] Speaker A: Yes, satish that has happened.
The deputy director is very keen, and that's like, keen on that aspect of police behavior. And we have had, unfortunately, an increase in domestic behavior, rise in domestic violence among police officers in terms of officers, you know, who have firearms that they can carry home or even officers who are in a relationship with a civilian. And when, let's say, for example, there's a domestic violence matter, and when they go to report the matter.
That matter is reported to the officer that, you know, X or Y came and made a report and it's kept quiet. And this is something that we're looking into where, you know, police abuse their power as they have a badge, you know, and that they are, you know, the civilian and even all to the fellow police officer find it difficult to make a complaint or find it difficult for the police to investigate their matter. So they have been coming to us and we have been doing those investigations.
[00:25:52] Speaker B: Mister Wesley, we leave our interview here this morning, but I want to thank you for being with us and giving us an update and explaining some of what is taking place and some of the objectives of the PCA as you push forward with what I am assuming is a daunting task every day. Thank you once again for being with us here this morning.
[00:26:10] Speaker A: Thank you very much. It is a pleasure as usual to be on your show and to try and explain to the public what the PCA does. And of course, remember the PCA, there are no police officers in the police complaints authority. I want to leave you and I want to leave the public with that.
[00:26:29] Speaker B: You know, just leave the public and the listeners with all the ways that they can get in touch with the PCA.
[00:26:39] Speaker A: Sorry Satish, I didn't get that.
[00:26:41] Speaker B: Tell our listeners how they could contact the PCA if they believe that there's a matter that the PCA could look into.
[00:26:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. Sure.
You can contact the PCA several ways. Of course. We have our app which I've spoken about. You can download our app in the play store or any Android or any iOS.
You can also to email
[email protected] dot tt to make a complaint. Or you could go on our website at www.pca.org dot tt. You can call us in Trinidad at 722 or you could contact us in Tobago. I don't want to mention our Tobago office. You could call us in Tobago at 639-5722 we had the Caribana building, backyard street in Tobago. So those are the ways you can contact us. Or you could come in to us at one a rising road port of Spain by the waterfront towers.
[00:27:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Mister west, thank you once again for being with us here this morning.
[00:27:54] Speaker A: My pleasure. Satish thank you. The best insight instant feedback, accountability the all new tone talk radio Freedom 106.5.
