Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, Accountability the all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5 let's welcome to our program co chair and co founder of pride, TT Rudolph Anamji. Good morning to you.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Good morning Satish and to my fellow citizens. Thank you for having us.
[00:00:19] Speaker A: It's nice to have you here this morning representative of the organization because we're having a lot of discussions about this for the obvious reason. It follows on the heels of the inauguration of Donald Trump in the US and some of the policies that he's put in place.
Interestingly enough, we have here at home some comments being made by, well, the opposition leader. The government has been more or less silent on the matter. They've not adopted if they have opposition, they've not made it public one way or the other. And it was interesting the press release issued by the the opposition leader and some of the matters that she sought to highlight.
People there have been a number of comments about what she had to say and people are comparing it to what other leaders had to say and all those kinds of things.
Let's set the foundation for the discussion.
Tell us a bit about the organization itself.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Praytiti, thank you for that question. Praitti started in 2018 on off of the heels of the Jones vs Trinidad and Tobago matter. I mean Pride, Gay Pride or Queer Pride had been celebrated in Trinidad for 30 years before that. But in a more private setting and of course with younger people joining advocacy and changes in world politics, you did see a more public movement to taking shape. The organization, which was founded by myself, Kennedy, Mirage and Josh Ryan, was really meant at that time Satish to organize very specifically annual LGBTQ pride activities in the country. And it there is a protest component of that type of work because even though there were other groups at present in the ecosystem, some of them focused on bullying in schools like Silver Lining foundation, the Equal Opportunity act, which was Kaiso's work, and HIV AIDS awareness, which was Friends for Life. There was no one group that brought the entire community together.
So that's the background of it. Full disclosure. Two years ago I did hand it over to Kennedy, Josh and younger people because I do believe in succession planning and I wanted to take on a broader role in society in advocating for all at risk and vulnerable communities because I do believe that people with privilege and certain comforts, we should be the ones that are using our voices and our resources to ensure that space is created for people who can't do that for themselves. So that's the background of it. And over the last eight years the organization has been able to engage with both the opposition and the government. And to your point, both the UNC and the People's National Movement and some other parties have on occasion skirted with the community that is the queer community. They have made statements. The prime minister, when he was first sworn in 10 years ago, he made a blanket statement that he believes that all persons should have free access to the law. And of course Kamala Passad Biseser, in an interview when she was prime minister in London had said that she would take the matter to the people of Trinidad and Tobago and have a referendum on it.
But unfortunately we still sit here today where the Equal Opportunities Act Satish is the only law in Trinidad and Tobago that categorically says this does not include sexual orientation. It is the only law. And I am a non practicing attorney. I could tell you it's the only law to my mind that has such an exclusion. So that's where we're at. That's what the organization was founded for upon. But I would like here today to share with you a wider voice and I'm hoping that I can do the best to represent the broad community because of course I don't represent personally all of the different segments, but I'll try my best.
[00:04:47] Speaker A: What are some of the objectives? I know you went into some of them, but in greater detail. What are some of the objectives of the organization? What does it seek to achieve?
[00:04:57] Speaker B: The main objective of, of pray TT and I would like to say all other queer activism groups is very similar to other human rights movements. When Wayne Krublalsing, for example, had his hunger strike and he was trying to mobilize people around a principle. You know, how you govern, how do you include everyone in the decisions that a government has to make? The main objectives really would be to showcase to Trinidad and Tobago that queer persons have always existed. As a matter of fact, every year when we celebrate Independence Day, I laugh to myself, how many people know that the national flag, and we're talking about the coat of arms, it was also part of Carlisle Chang's work. And Carlisle Chang was an openly gay man. So a gay person designed our national emblems and we love them. Peter Minshull is one of our greatest icons. Raymond Chukong, another icon. So Trinidad and Tobago has been a place where queer people have existed.
They have flourished in some regards, in others, not so much. And that is what the objective of the organizations really is about. It's ensuring that queer people, along with all other groups of at risk communities, find a more equitable space in the national discourse and that public policy is developed in a manner that does not exclude them any longer. So Jaden Young Jayden, who took his life a few months ago, the parents said categorically that he was bullied partly because people thought, thought underscored that he was gay. We don't even know if the poor child was really gay. I could tell you. And we went to the same college. Had it not been for the teachers at QRC and Angela Ifill, the guidance counselor, and my own parents, I would have probably had a different trajectory at school. But my friends and the teachers really created a supportive mechanism. But being bullied every single day of life is not easy for any child. So public policy comes in where the Ministry of Education has to have a zero tolerance policy on those types of issues and has to be very transparent and use the words, say, we will not accept bullying because of people's sexual orientation. But for some reason, satish, the public officials, they, they skirt around the issue and they never really deal with it. So Silver Lining foundation was able to issue a survey a few years ago and they got some support from the Ministry of Education, but not full support. And they haven't been able to recreate that survey to see what the baseline now says. So the organizations really ask. They use public events as a form of protest to highlight the issues and to bring the community together. But at the end of the day, that's all the organizations want, is public policy to be more equitable and inclusive, to protect people who are vulnerable and at risk.
[00:08:14] Speaker A: How large is the community in this country?
[00:08:17] Speaker B: So years ago, people always ask that question.
There are some data points that international organizations have put out and interestingly, through the HIV AIDS arm, which is the National AIDS Action Coordinating Committee, over the years they have been able to go out throughout the country and identify that for every 10 persons, it is believed that at least four of them would identify as queer. So if you say 40%, that is.
[00:08:49] Speaker A: 40% of the population.
[00:08:51] Speaker B: Because remember, queerness is a spectrum. I have friends who identify. Maybe when I say identify, most of them would do this privately, right? I have friends, girls and boys, who have identified over their lives as bisexual, for example. They have had both male and female partners. Then you have people who will stick to one specific vertical, so they'll either be lesbians or gays. And then you have a mind within those minorities, you have a smaller minority of people who identify now as non binary or transgender. When I was younger, those terms weren't as public or as present as they are now. So I could tell you from my own data and working with Prytti etc, I would say maybe between 25 to 30% of the population is a safe estimate. And remembering of course that a lot of people will never identify in their entire life. So there are married people, let's be plain talk bad manners. There are married people who pass as heterosexual or non married people who do the same, but in their private lives they are not practicing heterosexuality, let's just put it that way.
[00:10:13] Speaker A: I, I don't think we'll ever get the exact number that it's a tough thing to get because as you say you have people who are of the orientation but just don't will not come out and say anything because we are, our society is one that is not as accepting for want of a different term and we have a long way to go when it comes to that. Some of these developments on the international front, some people suggest are going to take all of the advancements way back. I don't know if necessary, that's how it's going to go. Where do people start to have a problem?
Because I'm of the opinion what you do in the confines and sanctity of your bedroom, that's your business, who you choose to do it has no bearing on me whatsoever.
[00:11:04] Speaker B: Which is what the High Court said in the Jones matter, right?
[00:11:07] Speaker A: But where do people start to have a problem? Because one of the discussions in the US for the presidential election was the use of public restrooms and gender reassignment of children. And that's where, if I'm to offer a suggestion, people start to get uncomfortable with this thing saying that that's a fair statement. If you are of your orientation, all well and good, but trying to impose it, and I use the term impose, deliberately trying to impose it on others is where people start to say, hey, well here, what's going on? You know, but where are we as a nation?
[00:11:48] Speaker B: Well, quick answer. As you rightfully said, we are not yet where we need to be. I mean there are enough examples, I've cited some of them to prove that statement. I hasten to add though, that relatively, and I guess life is always relative, right? Compared to some other islands, for example, or even parts of the world in Saudi Arabia, in Asian, Asian countries. Trinidad and Tobago is not killing queer people in Woodford Square. We are not seeing the police run into people's bedrooms and arrest them.
So in a strange way, I mean you've had people like Joelle D'Souza, who was a senator of the Republic, a transgender woman.
You have persons. I could tell you I can't call their names because then they may say otherwise and sue me for defamation. But I know that there are people in both the PNM and the UNC who, and as high as the Senate, who are members of the community.
I'm sure Trinidad is a small enough place, people can figure out exactly whom I'm speaking about. But the point is that for all the gains that we have made, for all the advocacy, I mean, we have public pride now. For seven years, there's been no real opposition. Nobody has been killed in the streets.
What worries me, Satish, is that the young, especially the younger queer people coming out in other parts of the country where they don't have the support that their family might need to give them or they don't have access to certain resources, those people may be facing discrimination. They may not get opportunities to eat in certain types of events or at school, they're bullied, or when they get into the workplace, people may take advantage of them. Transgender people have reported to organizations and the police that they are sometimes beaten. They are sometimes not included in health care.
So what we are advocating for, again, is very similar to an environmentalist or a youth armed movement or any other minority group, even prisoners, former residents of correctional facilities.
You are advocating for a small group of people within a wider population. And it's always difficult because the wider population's needs, the majority in a democracy tend to be what people say is important. But if you take crime, for example, we say we want a reduction in crime.
But when you break crime down into its components, there's a piece of crime in there where queer people are being harmed. There's a piece in there where children are being abused.
So there are these intersectional issues. There's a high rate of domestic violence, gender based violence. There are intersectional issues that run across crime. So if you want to bring crime down, you have to look at all crime, not just one type of crime. So that's where we are. We are in a better position. But yes, as you said, there's some ways to go. And I do think it's time starts in the education system. Because bullying is a learned behavior. And if parents are training some of their children to look at other people and say, you're too skinny, you're too fat, you're too gay, you're too whatever, you're too smart, you're a nerd, and using that to harm people, then the schools have to have a mechanism to retrain those children. For the wider society, one of the.
[00:15:45] Speaker A: Well, they say whenever America sneezes, the rest of the world catches a call. And now there's a lot of intense focus on what's going on in America. Donald Trump has made it abundantly clear that moving forward, at least for his four years in office, the American population, the government, will recognize only two genders, male and female. There was a raging discussion about sport.
[00:16:11] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:16:12] Speaker A: And. And how do we. Can we allow men who identify as women to take part in sports? And. And it started a whole, whole discussion, swimming and everything else. And.
[00:16:25] Speaker B: That'S.
[00:16:26] Speaker A: That. That's one of the issues that may directly be affected because they said no. And I think, and I'm just going off the top of my head, that men will no longer be allowed to participate. Biological men. Biological men will no longer be allowed to participate in women's sports. And some people see that as a victory. There are some people who see preventing biological men from using a female washroom as a victory. What's your take on it again?
[00:16:55] Speaker B: I sometimes. And I get. I'm not a. I'm not a transgender person. So I speak here using what the transgender community has shared with me, what my friends who are advocates in that space have done alongside me. So take it. Take it as you will.
When I went to UE 2003 to 2006, so that's 19 going on. 20 years ago, there, there were washrooms in UE that were unisex washrooms. I just came back from Europe, and most of the washrooms in restaurants and other public places actually have a sign where there's no. There's no one room of restrooms for men or women, because it's just more efficient. And I always laugh to myself sometimes. For those of us who take part in Carnival, every single year, woman take it upon themselves to enter the male washrooms and use our washrooms.
If men were to do that, it would be frowned upon. The point I'm making is that if you want to re. Engineer a space so that anybody, regardless of what gender or non gender they say they are, you can. It is already happening, this argument for transgender people to be seen. And again, I'm using my words carefully, but, you know, the English language only gives you so many words. The movement to have transgender persons who want to identify equally as the gender they have chosen. So to use your example, if a transgender woman who was a biological male and transitioned into being a transgender female, some of those persons want to be seen recognized legally as a woman, they want to drop off the trans, if you will, and just include them automatically into all other women. Right.
To me, that is an overreach.
It is going to take many years, maybe decades for societies across the world, and particularly patriarchal ones and religious ones in the Caribbean, for the wider population to really wrap their minds around that. So my advice has always been, and companies are doing this, the private sector is doing this in Trinidad is either you move to these unisex bathrooms where people just go into a stall and you have, I have no clue who's in it next to me, or you do create a non binary space and let those people comfortably. Because what you're trying to find, Satish, is a balance between the status quo and the change that is coming into the ecosystem. And it's not so foreign to us. You know, we come out of colonialism. There was a time when black people couldn't work in the bank. There was a time in America when you had a colored sink and a white sink and a colored restroom and a white restroom. Even in NASA, the colored people who were helping us go to the moon had to go all the way down to our next building. So these are similar issues. I want to run quickly to that because I know it's going to come up. It's the issue about the underage transition, right?
People are right to a large extent. When you are young and you're finding yourself, you can, you can have a sense of what you are and what you like and that can change over time. And I go back again to some of my friends who started off thinking they were straight, but then they got an experience and they realized that, well, wait a minute, I'm not. I actually, I'm gay or I'm bisexual. The reverse happens that people experiment. Children experiment based on what they're looking at on television or. And in the most unfortunate circumstances, which again categorically I want to denounce child molestation. It is disgusting and it. We need even stiffer laws to reduce and deal with those issues. But there are instances where children are abused by adults, not just gay people, but mainly straight people molesting children.
But either way it's wrong and those children become confused. They don't really know where they are going yet and they need to have professional help to figure themselves out. So there have been instances, not in Trinidad, in the. In more advanced countries, especially where young children have, with their parents consent, or even in some cases, a few cases, without the parents consent, the children have chosen to start a transitioning process.
I do agree with Joelle when she said that they that issue has to be looked at and that has to definitely include the parents input. And because if you want to be equitable, all medical procedures for children should involve the parents. And to my mind the state should only step in to say parent, your choice is wrong. And we are going to take that away from you and we are going to do it if it involves the life of the child because there are parents who might make decisions that for whatever reason and put the child's interest at a deficit. The state could step in there because they do it with adults, so why not do it with children?
So again, these are very complex issues. But my criticism of the opposition, opposition leader came from the point of view that if as a responsible prime minister in waiting and hear me out, I do think that we need to look at an alternative government. The current administration has not met the KPIs that we need. But if the opposition is supposed to be the progressive government in waiting, then there is a much more responsible way to treat with these issues. Because bashing an outgoing president and highlighting certain issues without nuance, without being responsible about it is going to do two things. One, it is going to turn people off who are open to supporting you but have a more responsible and intelligent way of looking at life. And secondly, worstly is going to create harm for other people. And that is where my criticisms lie.
[00:24:21] Speaker A: Yeah. What about the opposition leaders statement did you take issue with? Because I remember Kamala Persabi says and I mean we saw the videos people, some of the comments that she had to make and some pretty strong statements in the press release that that fly in the face of some of what she had said prior. So, so tell us about it.
[00:24:43] Speaker B: So let's start there. I want leaders and the prime minister is not the best example and neither is Kamala Passad Biseser. I want political leaders who are consistent about their positions. And if you make a change because you can change your position, say why you have made this change and refer to your former statements. Be responsible enough to say five years ago, three years ago, even at the UNC's National Council meeting, I want to say it may have been last year January or it may have been the January before when they had all of that cultural with the motions and whatnot.
She in her statements she included LGBTQ persons calling for them to be included and to have protections from the state. So that is the starting point. Why the waffle? Why this knee jerk state statement that seemed to and again because of how it was couched it, it gives people that impression that all of a sudden you are not about inclusion. And I want to give Kamala Passad bises the benefit of the doubt. Maybe she did not communicate properly. And that is why people like myself who are independent have to push back and ask these questions because it gives the politicians an opportunity to clarify. The second reason I was critical of it has to do with the diplomatic relations.
I am a beneficiary of tutelage by the outgoing UN Secretary General, Mr. Francis. His Excellency Francis. He taught me diplomacy at UE and as a prime minister in waiting on opposition leader, you don't only speak for yourself and your party, you speak for the entire nation. And you have to understand and accept that. And it's the same criticism when the prime minister makes irresponsible statements or when the Minister of energy talks about the fact that we will always be an oil and gas nation and he downplays the importance of renewables. And he and the government is, you know, loving up with Venezuela, not understanding the movements of the, of the geopolitical space. And look what has happened now in America. So that is the second criticism from a diplomatic relations point of view. It does not paint a good light for a potential incoming prime minister to make a carte blanche statement that an outgoing president term was a disaster, to use her words. Because up to this morning on your program, many people right here in Trinidad and Tobago might assess Kamala Passad's B tenure as a disaster. So she should be more fair and more balanced. And because as I said in my statement, it was carried in the Guardian, there were many policies of Joe Biden's administration that benefited our families. We have a huge diaspora in the States. We have immigrants who are Caribbean people. And their administration did support the Caribbean, not just Trinidad and Tobago, other islands with access to funding and technical assistance and what. And other things. So that's the second. And then thirdly, as a queer person, as a taxpayer of Trinidad and Tobago and someone who has been an advocate in this space and has had conversations with the UNC and the PNM and every other political party about these issues, again, I found that adopting these hardline positions that the new administration has adopted without showing sensitivity for your own people, your own citizens, as I said before, she was the one who appointed a transgender woman as a senator, her of her party that are from this, the queer community. Why would you do that to them and undermine their rights and the advancements made. So you want to be prime minister? No problem. Fight for it. But make more responsible statements so that people like myself can make a lucid justification that yes, you have done better than the Prime Minister, you deserve my vote.
[00:29:09] Speaker A: It's an. So it's a discussion that I don't want to say it's come full circle, but the discussion has been around for a pretty long period of time as to what would constitute the threshold for us to say, well, we have achieved what needs to be achieved. I don't know if we can ever set a goal post as to what that could be because you're talking about people's emotions, you're talking about people's need to be accepted. And that is going to be controversial always because you will have someone who thinks that, well, I believe that I should be allowed to do this or I should be given access or equal opportunity to do this. And then somebody somewhere is going to say, well, no, and this is why we say no and this is why you say yes. It's always going to be a back and forth.
I do not think our population is mature enough to have these frank discussions simply because we still too taboo. There are things that we don't want to talk about and if we don't talk about it, they don't exist. And be cool. We're happy with that. But in almost every family in this country there is someone who subscribes to this train of thought or probably actively engages in this type of lifestyle. And it's not to cast aspersions against them or to cast them out or everything else, but it's to acknowledge that it exists.
And in order for you to address an issue, you have to acknowledge that the issue exists first. It's like going by the doctor. If you go by the doctor and tell the doctor your head hurting you and he treats you for something in your foot, you're not dealing with the issue at hand.
But as to whether or not we'll ever be able to strike that balance, I don't know. It's a wait and see game, as you say. It might take us decades before we're able to get there. Let's take a couple calls. Let's see if we have a couple people there. You may need to use the headphones to be able to hear the callers. Let's see if we have somebody here.
Hello, Good morning.
[00:31:31] Speaker C: Good morning, Satish. And good morning to your guest, Mr. Hananji.
[00:31:36] Speaker B: Good morning.
[00:31:37] Speaker C: Princess Tong here.
I want to acknowledge, well, the work of all small groups or minority groups or groups in society. And probably I want to commend The LGBTQ group for their advocacy, which they have every right so to do. In fact, as Mr. Haaland himself pointed out, they seem to be. They have done reasonably well, all things considered, over the years and they seem to be well represented in the Parliament, in the Senate, in the.
I think all things considered, they have done well and well. They must continue to press on for their rights, etc, etc.
And you know, you have other minority groups in the society which have been alienated to a large extent. And I can just allow me, please look at the disability community right now. In the past Parliament of Santa Bingo, both in the lower and upper house, and even local government, there is not one single voice, not even half of a voice that can. That any of these parties can safely say that represents the voice or the interest. Not even for cosmetics. Nothing. Nothing at all. It is a group and we have been around for hundreds of thousands pleading and begging and advocating.
So to some extent, I could say I probably envy this group.
They have made strides over the years and I wish them well. But at the same time, I wish to point out in society, we need to acknowledge that there are other groups in the society who have a legitimate right in us to be treated with some kind of equity and justice. Thank you, Princess.
[00:33:40] Speaker B: Don Satish, if I could just quickly say, we've been working with other minority groups over the last three years, especially in the private sector, because of Trump's. He doesn't like it. Dei, diversity, equity and inclusion. And there are intersectional issues. Princess Town is. Is so right. Do you know in Trinidad and Tobago, we do not have an assented disabilities Act.
That is that. That by itself is a failing of this administration and prior administrations. Why can we not pass that legislation and start implementing it? So I, I endorse what you say, Mr. Princess Town, and yes, I would stand with the disabled community any day because believe it or not, there are disabled queer people and there are queer persons who have family and friends who are from the disabled community. So we must all stand together.
[00:34:37] Speaker A: Let's take another call.
Hello, Good morning.
[00:34:41] Speaker D: Morning, Zatish. And morning to your guest calling from Chaguanas. I want to tell your guests that DEI is a very destructive idea. It is plain and simple racism and it discriminates against people.
It has been used as a weapon in the US to hire certain people and it has. Any company that has implemented DEI has suffered great losses in revenue. So it doesn't focus on competence, it focuses on your identity. And that kind of practice is what you should be advocating against because you are Advocating for people.
[00:35:28] Speaker A: I.
[00:35:29] Speaker D: You know, let me get this clear.
Whatever you do in your bedroom, that is your business, right?
Let me explain with the dei. This DEI and esg. ESG doesn't focus on. On profit. It focuses on. Is basically the same principles as dei and companies that implement these. They have Bud Light and all these companies in the US that went that way, and they suffered billions of dollars in losses. They had to fire their PR managers and so on. And I'll tell you something.
The Biden administration may have been a boon, a boon for the.
For the LGBT community, but it was a disaster for the rest of America. And I'll tell you why. Because the LGBT community in America under Biden, there's something called the tyranny of the minority. And that is what they did. They tried to indoctrinate people's children in schools and tell them it had 200 genders and all kind of nonsense. Right. When there's only two genders. And I could prove that, because if you dine every one of us when we die and dig up our bones a hundred, 200 years from now, they could tell if someone was a male or someone was a female by their bone structure around the pelvis.
[00:36:55] Speaker A: Okay, thank you so much.
Get the gist of what it is you want to say. Let me just take another call before we're almost out of 10. Anyway. Hello. Good morning.
[00:37:04] Speaker E: Morning, Durbasa. Tracy, good morning. Yeah, I was thinking of the same point. If Elon Musk is to populate Mars and he sends all these transgenders and trans women transformed into men with women who have stayed women when they all die out, Mads wouldn't have anybody.
Men are men, and women are women. Now, if you want to cut and, you know, fit and so on, I'm fine with even that much, what you do in your private space. But a man is a man, a woman is a woman. If you want to be gay and all of that, that's your business.
But why do you feel the need to propagate that among people who say, well, here, now you. You do yours now, and let me draw up my children my way. Thank you.
[00:38:05] Speaker B: The callers. I mean, I listen to your program, as you said earlier, and I do know that my fellow callers have a certain level of intelligence, and sometimes they betray themselves, because obviously, we are talking about a half of a half of a half. And you continue the decimal point percentage of the world's population that identifies as transgender. So I don't think Elon is going to be sending many of them to Mars dub us a trace. But I understand the analogy you're trying to make transgender people and queer people do not pose any threat to humanity continued evolution. As a matter of fact, we've always existed. As I said, I just came back from Europe and where you go through the museums and you look at the artworks from thousands of years ago, you will see that we are well represented. And as a matter of fact, some of us created some of those beautiful things. But to go back to the first caller, the second caller's pointer, DEI and esg and full disclosure, I am the chair of the Trinidad and Tobago Chamber of Industry and Commerce's ESG Committee. I work for EY Global, which is the world's largest professional services firm, especially here in the Caribbean. And I can tell him categorically that what Budweiser did was actually a bad marketing campaign. But it has nothing to do with the overarching principles of ESG and dei. Because you have to find a balance between people, planet and profits, especially in this world where consumers are much more engaged as to where they're putting their money. And we have local and regional and international examples where by allowing equity of opportunity, not outcome. So you still have to have the merit. So you could be a black person or Chinese person or a queer person or a short person, but you have to have the merit for the position by allowing that diversity of thought in the room. That is where innovation comes and they have made billions of dollars because of it.
[00:40:24] Speaker A: We are out of time, but the discussion is engaging and I think it's a discussion while some people couldn't care to have it, it's necessary for many reasons to figure out some of the things to demystify some of the perceptions people have for other people to get their points in because people are very, very vocal and to get public policy.
[00:40:44] Speaker B: In the right space. Because I don't agree with tyranny of the minority, but I also don't agree with the majority silencing the minority.
[00:40:52] Speaker A: Yeah, this is where we're going to have to drop the kid. Thank you for being with us here this morning. The best insight, instant feedback, accountability, the all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.
