Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability, the all new talk Radio Freedom 106.5. Joining us now is a gentleman whose opinion has been widely shared. He's been commenting on matters related to national security and crime and some some other things.
Let's welcome to our program former NOC director. That's Gavin Hira. Good morning to you.
[00:00:28] Speaker B: Hi morning, morning, Satish. And morning to our streaming and our listening audience and to your production and technical team in studio. Good morning, Trinidad and Tobago.
[00:00:37] Speaker A: Nice to have you with us here this morning. Now, I know the name. Gavin here is a, it's a household name. You've, you've been around making a lot, lot of comments. People are fully aware. But just, just for those listeners who may not be up to date with some of what you've been involved in, let me allow you the opportunity to familiarize some of our listeners with you and tell us about some of what you've been involved in when it comes to national security.
[00:01:05] Speaker B: Sure. But I would really like to comment on your opening statement. A household name. You almost made me sound like an appliance.
But probably we'll use that as the terminology and appliance because I consider myself one who is integrally involved in understanding how the atmosphere has shifted. I think some of our callers would have alluded to that today and the other days. And I am continuing my research, my team and I looking at national security, looking at countermeasures and advising when we do get the opportunity on what should be the corrective approaches and more importantly the strategic approaches as it comes to national security. Holistically, I'm a regional security expert. I do speaking engagements locally, regionally and internationally on issues regarding crime and from a national perspective and supporting some of the agencies within governments to restrategize, shift the goalposts a little bit and to look at the trending criminal, what we'll call incidents that are now showing itself that is not only, you know, isolated or localized to Trinidad and Tobago, the region, and more importantly internationally. Which tells you that even as the conversation this morning, I was, I was privy to here with Pinal and some of the other people.
This thing with extortion is not a Shaguanas thing or a businessman in Trinidad and Tobago thing. This is an international thing that involves transnational organized crime. And we are treating with organized crime groups, sophisticated criminals that are, you know, using the tool of extortion as an apparatus of criminal behavior.
[00:02:55] Speaker A: Yeah. So. Well, you would have heard the conversation and the poll question this morning.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: I did, sir.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: The poll Question this morning was about whether or not people support businessmen taking actual, Taking action, taking matters into their own hands.
Durbasa Tracy is very descriptive in his contribution. Bus let in their tail. You know, that's. That's a sentiment I've heard from some people. It feeds into the old stand your ground perception. And this gentleman that the Shagon May was talking about yesterday at his press conference, you can tell there's a level of frustration. There's a level of probably he feels that he's a victim and nobody's on his side. But as having the experience that you've had in this industry, what's your take on this pronouncement that some businessmen could deal with this thing on their own?
[00:03:50] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I heard the statements. I actually saw some aspects of the clip. And what in fact we are hearing is the echoing of a frustration. You're quite correct, but the echoing of the sentiments of businessmen who are basically saying, we have had enough. However, we have to be very cautious, we have to be very careful and we have to be very planned and structured in how we approach this sort of pushback.
It is also necessary to listen to what law enforcement is saying and to all to work closely with the body that has been given the authority to protect and to serve and to guide and to advise citizens in Trinidad and Tobago. The counterargument is, are they doing enough? Are we hearing from them? Are they really ready to treat and to deal with this? I have been the victim of. I have been receiving the fear factor. My family is under threat, threat my property. So you have a series of counter arguments that has now caused these type of utterances. But we have to be very careful because if what is being said is perceived in the wrong way, it can be taken as a trigger for vigilantism. And Trinidad and Tobago, not only the businessmen, are the breaking point when it comes to crime and to criminality. And, you know, people are already grouping together that if it comes this way, we are going to fight back. We're not going to take this. We're going to treat with this a certain way. Because there seems to be an underpinning of dissatisfaction with the service, of what the police service might be offering or how they are treating the disease. Yes, I am very acquainted with Mr. Smith. I know his capabilities. I know he's a good police officer. He is really a good person to be in charge of the anti extortion unit. But that unit is not just the receiving of reports to investigate. It has to be a predictive intelligence system. And as the conversation matures this morning, I would like to lend some of that support advice onto what a sort of holistic EU should really be looking at and how it should be structured so that we can treat with this whole extortion and demanding money by menace, you know, from, from a whole, from a 360 degree sort of approach.
[00:06:22] Speaker A: What, what advice would you have in particular for businessmen? Let's take Shagona so to the equation because it's across the country, it's not necessarily in, but we're hearing more about it in, in north and central South Trinidad has not necessarily reported as many if any at all of their business people being targeted or facing this kind of problem. So let's just say business people say, well here we're going on, you see this anti extortion thing and the police and this one and that one and whoever, they're not doing what I think they should or I don't feel that I'm protected, I don't have confidence in what they've done. I would like to do something, a couple of my friends, all of a business people, we want to come together and put something together to protect us. Is that something that is feasible? Is that something you'll encourage and if so, what form would that take?
[00:07:17] Speaker B: Yeah, well there are a series of actions and that can be taken and we will take the opportunity in this morning's conversation to address that.
But you also have to understand that when a group of people, let's say maybe a street or rule, a merchant's role within any business sector decides that we want to act against any, any sort of advances of extortion or demanding money by menace and they want to put together a plan. It first starts with your mindset and I know there might have been some public, whatever I'll call statements with regard to businessmen involved in, in illegal activity, I'm not going to go down that road. I don't have the empirical evidence to so do. But what I can say is we have to exercise due diligence. We have to be extremely vigilant in with whom we engage for business purposes. This is transnational organized crime status. And it is important to understand that the sophistication of the criminal is not the ordinary guy. It's standing outside of your business, looking at how you operate. These are people who are masking themselves as associates, getting into your system and understanding the rhythm of your business, the involvement of your transactions. The banks with whom you deal with and your associate partners, they are fitting in to the groove to understand and to learn about you so that they have the right portals to breach and to enter into your space so as to threaten you or as to demand money, especially with the movement of your family and that type of exposure. So the due diligence that I am speaking about comes to what is known in the industry as hardening your target. You have to make it difficult for people to get information about, difficulty for people to be able to breach your perimeter and to actually threaten you. But a lot of us are complacent, a lot of us are drilled and we are driven by the dollar bill. And therefore we see the business opportunity, but we don't see the risk and the threat factors. And therefore conducting RTVAs in your business role according to your industry and your service is very important. It is as critical now for your survival in your whole business career and what is known as the longevity or the business continuity of what you do. The RTV is risk, threat and vulnerability assessments. So I am advancing this advocacy that we need to conduct rtves, come together as a group and ensure you harden your target. We have seen in some areas, such as Tunapuna and I think some other business zones are now looking to put up their own cameras, monitor these cameras, integrate that camera coverage with a rapid response capability from accredited security provider, employ and what I call bring into your own space, your own private security and protection. So those are some things that you can do, but it also involves the cyberspace. Satish listeners this morning, viewers, the cyber area of your business. Because everybody's moving money online, everybody's purchasing and they get into your cyberspace and they conduct surveillance on your type of business and who you're associated with. And as I said earlier in our opening statement, the sophistication of these criminals are now able to be in the quiet corners of your cyberspace in order to threaten you. And therefore your awareness of cybersecurity and the countermeasures to protect against that for detections and for intrusions also has to be in place. So I would caution against utterances and behavior that leans towards vigilantism or they'll take what they get and that type of stuff and utilize that energy and emotions to harden your target and make it difficult for these criminals to basically breach your perimeter or get in or intrude into your space so as to threaten you or to hold you ransom. And I don't say this with any reservations, hold you ransom against these actions.
[00:11:49] Speaker A: Yeah, it sounds good and it's good advice in the digital world. You need to Be mindful of all these things. But in reality, how do you deal with a situation where trick gangsters walk into your business place and say they won't talk to you and. Or they meet you somewhere and embrace you and say, here we're going on our partner, you know where your wife is, we know where your child is and that kind of thing, and this is what we want and if we ain't got it, this is what gonna happen. Or they pick up the phone and call you because as a business person, you know, all over the place and they call you and say, well, here, what going on now? So by so, which is what happened to Pablo Doubles and a couple others of them as well. So how do all these measures that you're outlining, hardening your target and all that, how does that factor into these two situations that I outlined?
[00:12:39] Speaker B: Okay, let's say those two situations didn't have some of the precautions that I mentioned a while ago. And take for instance, I just want to rewind the tape a little bit. In Tobago, as we're dealing with this whole demanding money by menace extortion issue.
This thing was on the ground a long time ago.
We had to ask rhetorically whether we moved on it too late. We have to ask the question whether law enforcement, National Security Day is looking reactive to something that was always on the table and always an issue and a pain point for our business, for fraternity, but nothing was really being done before. When you had a situation of a threat or the phone call or bracing, as you rightfully explained, you had to go to the police station, you had to face the police officer behind the desk who would treat you based on his own whims and fancy to take a report if he so wishes. And you were not satisfied that any sort of thorough, meticulous investigation would have been executed. As a matter of fact, some of you may or may not have ever heard after from the police service and the threats continue and eventually bowed the turret and had to start paying money or paying taxes. That, that, that is all this. Now we have a unit and we have a hotline number, I think. So that's a whole different conversation. But I wanted to go all the way back to the schools where there was something existing and still existing called taxing, and that started in the primary schools.
So my, my thing is that when you have a criminal behavior trending, like how we are seeing bullying actually starting to show its ugly head again, when you have a criminal activity trending from the level of the primary schools, it warrants immediate Urgent attention by the state, by the agencies and by the gatekeepers who have been employed so to do. And I don't think we saw that. We let the horse bolt and now we are in a reactive mode. I wanted to clear that up as the situational awareness. So we have to work and work fast in order to counter that. Now, with regard to the businessmen who might have been braced or the phone call and that type of stuff, had you had installed in your system panic buttons, for instance, were you vigilant enough to recognize these things are happening? I've heard it happen to those guys down on the other street or in the warehouse over the road. You start prepping yourself. But there was complaint complacency. I don't want you to lose this thought, Satish. Yes, it's hard. What am I going to do? A man brace you, he send you a picture of your wife, whatever. But because of complacency there was an opening to do that. Had you been on that high alert, had you had installed for instance panic buttons so that if you feel threatened or you trigger your panic button, so a response comes in right away, or if your system is monitored at all times, so if they see you in some sort of situation, there can be a response prior to the police service to treat with it, the message will start to be sending that this is a hardened target, this issue is difficult to breach. And if the calls continue to come, monitor, there are systems that you can install that can record these calls, know exactly where they are. But money has to be spent. That's the decision here. Money has to be spent. And the question is, why would now hard earned businessmen who are contributing to the economy of Trinidad and Tobago and sustainable development for its citizens and the communities now have to spend extra money in order to be protected? When this should have been a provision, maybe by the state, there should have been a deterrence that could have pushed back the criminals. We are dealing with people who are sitting in planning rooms, Satish, who are sitting in groups. And the same way that we are countering measures to push back against crime, they are designing methodologies and new strategies to conduct crime, to continue crime and to make money illegally. So you are dealing with transnational organized crime, which is the business mind behind criminal behavior in Trinidad and Tobago and the region. You're dealing with a bigger elephant in your room. And therefore we have to just up our game now as a business fraternity and ensure that we elevate our standards. Remove, remove the complacency, become vigilant and push back with the availability of the legal, the legal structures that are out there while the police have to do their stuff regarding investigations and all of that stuff, all of that. But there are, there are systems in place that you could consider that you could install. Of course it's going to be a spend that is going to prevent pushback and deter against acts of crime, especially extortion and demanding money by menace.
[00:17:29] Speaker A: Do you think somebody would be justified if they are confronted in a situation of extortion and they defend themselves and someone loses their life?
[00:17:42] Speaker B: Well, that's really a question for our legal experts because there are thin lines between what you can do, what you can do and if you do, if you can be held culpable. But I do know that if your life is under threat, you can defend your life and your property. So you have to ensure that your actions, spells, reflects and demonstrates that your life was under threat, your family's life was under threat, your property was under threat by these individuals or individual. And you basically had to defend your space. That is your argument. What I don't have are the intricacies of the legal T's and I's. That is something that I think you could employ or engage a legal mind to advise accordingly. Because this matter goes to court. Whether you like it or not, legal or illegal, you are going to court. So you have to be able to stand up in court and defend your actions and produce an established evidential base that it was defending of a life or property.
[00:18:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Mr. Hira, and for those of our listeners as well, locked on this conversation reminds me of a statement that was made by Bas de Upande when it related to mass kidnappings for ransom that we had in those years, I think it was 2006 and seven or somewhere around that time, and people were being kidnapped all over the place, business people. And so. And Mr. Pandey said that business people and wealthy people are going to take measures to do exactly what you're saying to become hardened targets to prevent themselves from being attacked. And he said when that happens, the criminals will have to look for softer targets. And the softer targets will be the average individual who feel they have plenty money, but to whom $10,000 or $20,000 that the banner could get from you would be a lot. Now we're in a situation here where business people are under attack. There's no other way to describe it. I don't think there's another way to describe it. They are under attack.
I know business people who have sold off everything and have left and I ain't talking about.
And this is across the spectrum, this is small business people, medium business people this large. Across the spectrum, you've had this. And the country really cannot afford to continue losing our entrepreneurs and our business people who make significant contribution to the economy. They provide jobs, there's a spin off with their suppliers and the list goes on and on and on. Now we have this unit. Tell us a bit about. Because you spoke about it a bit this morning, some of our listeners may have missed it. And for those of you who joined the conversation midway, we are speaking with former NOC director Garvin Hera. This, this new unit that has been set up anti extortion.
Tell us your views on it. Do you think they're doing it right? What else? How do you think they should be approaching the thing?
[00:20:52] Speaker B: Yeah, well, as I told you, I want to compliment the, what I'll call the policing expertise of Mr. Smith. I'm hoping at this point, I don't know because I can't get behind the wall. So I don't know speaking out, we're hearing or seeing.
I think at this point what we should have is an isolated unit. Mr. Smith has to be repositioned somewhere separately from the run of the mill, what I'll call police work. It has to be separately established with a staff members of the police service who have been thoroughly vetted and background checks. So we're looking at a specialized unit occupying a space outside of the whole police perimeter, equipped with advanced and modified resources, the technological aspect of criminal investigation and of course utilizing modern resources for investigations and tactical operations.
In that unit there should be a robust platform for cyber investigations, cyber surveillance and cyber countermeasures. Because the same way you can launch a tactical operation or a sting operation with regard to extortion, you can launch tactical cyber countermeasures in the same space that they attacking you and you could break down their systems. This is what I'm saying. You hit them where it hurts.
This unit should be closely linked with our international counterparts.
As a matter of fact, I would advocate further we could even consider engaging international counterparts to work here in Trinidad closely with the unit. So there is a joint approach of internationalism with regard to operational planning and executions for the AEU so that they can carry out investigations.
Some of these payments are being done online, some of these payments are being done via systems that are not easily tracked and would therefore need or warrant the scientific and advanced support of our international counterparts so that they can assist us in following tracking money payments or money demands. And of course add towards the prosecutorial process so that people can be incarcerated not only in Trinidad, but outside of Trinidad because it's transnational organized crime.
Further to this aspect with the unit, I have a strong feeling that it can be a multi agency unit and involve other agencies of the government to support it. And it should not only just be a police unit, it should be a national security unit so that there is greater oomph and of tentacles to treat with the transnational organized crime, including customs, including immigration, because of the far reaching capacities of some of these agencies.
And it should not only be Mr. Smith, there should be a directorship that involves brain power for the specific planning and structuring of the anti extortion system. When we did face that upsurge of kidnapping in this country, a unit was formed to which I was part of the special anti crime unit to bring and to break the back of kidnappings. I'm starting to see it rising again and closely with the anti kidnapping unit of the police service and the UK Scotland Yard. There was that fusion of expertise and autonomy to investigate and to prosecute. And of course there was a fear factor that was driven into the hearts of the criminals that there was a new boy on the block and he meant business. And that is the type of narrative, that is the type of strike. We need to hear from Mr. Smith and his unit that this is a new thing and we are coming at you and we are going to get you. Not a sort of passive we are investigating, make your reports and we would look at it and we will. No, no, no, no. Businessmen don't have the time for that soap opera. So I am complimenting the establishment of the unit, but I'm advising that it needs to have a voice of power and a voice of command and a voice of fear so that when they speak or when they are moving or when they are investigating, criminals are going to start thinking twice because they're going to send a strong message. It's about time. And you're correct. We're reaching a point of frustration that the fist has to come down on the table and come down hard and therefore that message has to be sent by something that looks the part, that acts the part and more importantly speaks the part of authority and command to treat with a threat issue that has the business fraternity, contributors to our economies back against the wall. Satish, I am close to my completion but we can always have a part two of this conversation.
[00:26:40] Speaker A: I know that our time, this is where we're going to have to drop the curtains on our interview. But this is a discussion that's not going anywhere anytime soon because we seem to be so far off in dealing with it effectively.
And when you have a businessman can get up and say, you see me, I go handle that my way. Next time I come around, you can tell that the levels of frustration are at break. Yeah, definitely. Mr. I want to thank you for being with us here this morning.
[00:27:10] Speaker B: I want to say one thing. I don't want people to lose this, this extortion, taxing, demanding money by ministers in the primary schools, taxing young people, taxing young people, people taxing young, young people taxing young people for their lunch money and that kind of stuff. It is in the primary schools.
We have to pay attention to this issue holistically.
[00:27:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you so much for being with us us here this morning. Best guys, that's how we drop the cadence on our interview here this morning with our special guest, former NOC director. That's Gavin Hera. The Best insight, Instant Feedback, Accountability, the all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.
