Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: As we switch gears this morning, we say good morning to my guests this morning as we get into our 15 minute discourse with Dr. Mark Curtin, Director, center for International Border Studies. Good morning to you, Dr. Curtin.
[00:00:22] Speaker C: Good morning.
[00:00:22] Speaker B: Good morning to you, Dr. Mark Curtin. How are you sir?
[00:00:25] Speaker C: How are you? Not too bad, thanks. I'm sorry about the.
[00:00:28] Speaker B: That's okay. Technology.
Yes, it's all right, I understand and we are patient and we here with you.
It snuffed a bit of our time but we can still get into the crux of our business as we talk in tha elections, Tobago business relations with the region.
Let's just allow you to tell the audience a little bit about yourself before we delve into this. Quick, quickly please.
[00:00:52] Speaker C: Okay. I've actually been part of the Institute of international relations at St. Augustine for about 12 years before I retired back to Guyana where I work for a small group called the center for International Border Studies.
And we have, you know, participants and fellows from the region and beyond.
And we do, I would say we've been focused quite recently on issues related to the region, especially in the context of the recent Venezuela US issues and some of the potential impacts on the region itself. So that's my current area of focus.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: Beautiful. Thank you so much. As we deal with the tha elections on the ground in Tobago, what are your thoughts coming into this throughout this campaign? Getting into today? We're not campaigning much but you know, based on what you're seeing happening this morning, Akash Samaru and our other reporter Gonzalez, they would have reported a smooth sailing so far. What are your thoughts on this process so far?
[00:02:01] Speaker C: Well, I would hope that whatever the outcome, it benefits the people of the Tobago and the broader Caribbean in the sense that, you know, Trinidad and Tobago have been very strong allies, traditionally, very, very strong regional allies, I would say. But recently we've seen some fragmentation and we hope that perhaps these elections could bring back a stronger level of regional unity across both Trinidad and Tobago as.
[00:02:41] Speaker B: It relates to what Tobago needs right now in terms of education, tourism, sustaining the economy on the island, maintaining regional integration, especially coming out of the fact that they would have had drop in tourism sales. What is the expectation going into this election and coming out of it, the anticipation of yourself and others?
[00:03:07] Speaker C: Well, I would say generally, broadly that in the context of the relations with countries like Guyana, which I'm Guyanese and I live here, we hope that with the new sectors which have emerged in Guyana and that I think there could be some stronger linkages, economic and social, which could have mutual benefit.
So I would say that for us, an expectation is that there would be the enhancement of trade and economic relations, which I believe is possible, and that we have to have the political will in both states to enhance that and to bring it to fusion.
So my hope is that both Trinidad and Tobago can now benefit from, in a sense, mutually and engage in, you know, the oil and gas sector more robustly that has emerged in Ghana. And we can see economic benefits to both, understood potential benefits to both.
[00:04:21] Speaker B: But do you think it is prudent enough?
And I like the fact that you have included Trinidad as part of it, because a lot of Tobagonians, when we talk, you know, it's always along the lines of autonomy and being able to diversify their own economy and stable, you know, and more or less do things for themselves. Because my next question to you would have been phrased in such, how does Tobago come forward and maintain regional integration without that of central government?
What would that look like?
[00:04:49] Speaker C: I believe that at this stage you have to do what I term the gradualist approach.
It must be for me, and I've just been looking quite personally at what is happening in Tobago, but I think at this stage there must be a Trinidad and Tobago approach.
In other words, it can be one part of the island state and just leaving the other part to Fendi itself.
What we're seeing in the region is that fragmentation, which I would hope would not extend significantly to Trinidad and Tobago at this stage, because I'm not sure from what I'm seeing that Tobago couldn't do it alone.
So there must be, I believe, joint efforts, obviously, in this region have to have a sense of unity. And it has to start in Trinidad and Tobago, because once you have that distance, in my view, then you get a further level of instability and levels of fragmentation.
[00:06:11] Speaker B: Okay. One can anticipate that with Tobago screaming to the top of their lungs. Asking for autonomy means that they want to segue away from central government in Trinidad, given the fact that they do get an allocation from central government every budgetary year, where they can take care of Tobago affairs, pay salaries and whatnot. Let's take a quick commercial. Not commercial, but a quick phone call. Good morning.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: Good morning, Devi. And good morning to you, guest.
When you speak about the whole question of borders and association, I want to make an observation here. When one looks at the wealth that exists in Trinidad and Tobago, in Guyana, in Suriname, in Venezuela, there's enough wealth within this region to make us and all the islands of north the envy of other sectors around the world.
What you need actually is the political will to assemble this wealth and assemble the people to take advantage of it. But once you have a situation like what took place a few days ago in Venezuela, it caused this segregation and it develops all sorts of things that you don't want to develop among the peoples of this region. And in a case that we probably forever remain starving, like in the abundance of water, the fool is thirsty. So I'm saying to you, what we need to do is to extricate external powers from our business. And we're not supposed to get involved with them when they want to interfere with other sovereign states in this place. Speaking about Trinidad and Tobago, Tobago radar and the Venezuelan incursion, I listen to your comments.
[00:07:55] Speaker C: Hello?
[00:07:56] Speaker B: Yes, we're hearing you.
[00:07:58] Speaker C: Well, I think that your colleague, your caller, is correct in some ways. Now, I have been advocating quite recently, seeing that Petro Caribbean, for example, is going to be impacted by the recent issues that emerge in Venezuela.
So what we might want to consider is a region is the establishment of Petro Caricom where you can use the oil and other minerals, well, oil, especially out of Guyana.
And as you know, there's going to be the emergence of Suriname as an oil producer in a year or two. And we can use the refinery facilities of Trinidad, which could be retrofitted because they tell me, and I'm not an expert in that area at all, that it is now structured for heavy crude and that I believe using those facilities could develop that regional, could bring back that regional spirit. And more particularly, I think a level of energy security regionally could be established. So we're talking here about bringing or rebuilding that unity and cohesiveness in the Caribbean.
So I think that situation in Venezuela allows for us to retool and to develop once again a level of political will across the region that can have benefits for the small island states. They are still very reliant on Venezuelan oil. And we see where the US Administration is saying that they are now responsible. All the oil will be under the control of the United States. And you don't know what the allocations would be. So here we have the opportunity to consider both the technical and political elements of the development of, you know, of that type of consortium to have Petro Caricom. Now, we've seen some acrimony in the region in the last couple of days. All right.
[00:10:20] Speaker B: Okay, let's take another call quickly. Hello, good morning.
[00:10:24] Speaker D: And to your guest there, Caricom is a constant, not a view. CARICOM is here to stay. But we're going through a little period here which you have problem understanding. But CARICOM is constant and is here to stay.
[00:10:39] Speaker B: Thank you, Paul Sweden, thank you very much. Hello, good morning. Quickly please. All right, 625-2257.
While we have you on the line, let's just touch with CNC3 very quickly and get a little insight as to what's taking place on the island with the Tobago.
[00:10:52] Speaker E: Not really.
[00:10:52] Speaker D: There's usually there's us align but like.
[00:10:57] Speaker B: For me I find the process was kind of faster.
[00:10:59] Speaker C: Okay, yeah, yeah.
[00:11:00] Speaker A: There are a lot of people inside.
[00:11:04] Speaker B: This is just giving you two voters that just emerged. So we Elizabeth Gonzalez giving us some insights. I thought I could have catch up some more but we'll keep monitoring the situation. So Dr. Kirk, as we continue, let's take another call quickly. Hello, good morning.
[00:11:19] Speaker E: Good morning Devi and good morning to the doctor.
Oh, I had to agree with Eric.
[00:11:24] Speaker B: This morning but Eric was going all over the place. I was kind of lost. But go ahead.
[00:11:27] Speaker E: No, because in the abundance of water the fool is thirsty because what Eric is suggesting that the entire first, first let me explain one of the consequences to hit reverse. Cuba gets about 40,000 barrel oil from Venezuela every day to keep Cuba's economy going.
If Cuba is unable to get that, that is one Caribbean country is going to collapse just like everybody was about Haiti.
[00:11:58] Speaker C: Right.
[00:11:59] Speaker E: And there are one or two other countries and the man is telling us that if he gets control of this oil that the price they're getting it at presently they would not be able to pay that they had to pay the standard market value.
Cuba can't afford that and some of the Caribbean that make up. Right. So if we decide to join that union that Eric was talking about which made plenty sense. But you think the man who sit down the presently now with a law that is why there's a division with Trinidad and Tobago and Caricom because we are supporting the views just like what Du Bois said, make America great again. Make America great again with the economies of the States outside.
[00:12:44] Speaker B: So, so what's your question to the doctor this morning?
[00:12:50] Speaker E: Well, to me what the doctor is asking for is somewhat how to put it that means Caricom has to take a stand.
That is how to put it. Anti politic, anti socialist America. And anytime you take a stance towards America in that nature, it cripples our economy unless we could get all our economy together in one.
So until we talk about $1 or whatever call it bricks until the car come in, decide to come. That's something like bricks and come one currency, one dollar.
We just talking, talk. All right.
[00:13:31] Speaker C: But if you note, I'm saying that strategically, we may want to start with PETRO Caricom, because I see where Petro Caribbean used to be the lifeline, the oil lifeline for small states of the Eastern Caribbean especially now, I could see that being abandoned.
And the preoccupation of the US at this stage seems to be the control of the oil and they're telling countries which countries will be able to be supplied. Now I'm saying that if we have that unity across Caricom where we can use that facility which could bring back a level of trust and mutual respect in the region, using oil from Guyana, some from Suriname, and the facilities of Trinidad and Tobago, then we on our way, I think, to a new type of regional integration effort and some level of energy security.
Now even look, a few days ago, we saw where the United States is removing itself from organizations and institutions which have had some benefit, which have brought some benefits to the Caribbean. For example, I see where they're moving. They're not going to contribute any longer to the climate change. The United Nations Climate Change Facility and Committee, also United Nations ECLAT Economic Commission for Latin America, the Caribbean, those are institutions which basically have had some positive impact on the Caribbean so that we are left alone in some ways. So we have to develop a level of interaction which could demonstrate our resilience and could bring people's benefits closer to them. So we're talking here about leadership, political will and engagement, sustained engagement across this region. And one of the. One of the issues I think, that could bring us together again is consideration of this Petro caricomage where we can look to all contribute and benefit.
[00:16:06] Speaker B: All right.
I had another call that was coming through and apparently we lost it.
So I want to tell you. Thank you so much. Dr. Mark Curtin, Director of center for International and Border Studies. I do have the call coming through. Hello. Good morning.
[00:16:23] Speaker A: Doctor, before you go, the recent incursion into Venezuela and Trinidad and Tobago's supposed participation. Do you think the fallout is over? Listen to your comments.
[00:16:37] Speaker C: Well, I would say that Trinidad obviously operated in this national interest, but I think that we have to go beyond that. We have to bring that regional thinking into a level of oneness, convergence of interests, because our strategic interests have to be both carefully articulated and this is why it has to be a regional effort. I don't know if the fallout is over, but to answer directly I would say that we heard what the interests of Trinidad and Tobago were.
I think we have discussed some of the negative impact of that. But I think now it's time to go forward.
[00:17:20] Speaker B: I agree. Hello, Good morning. Quickly.
[00:17:23] Speaker D: Bless you. Honorable professor there. I believe the Mondo Doctrine, the U.S. send him a search to be owned and controlled by Western democracies and nobody else.
We do accept the Western democracy, especially in the Western embassy. Would you comment on that, please?
[00:17:42] Speaker C: Well, undoubtedly there's an effort to return to the sphere of influence idea and to utilize the Mondo doctrine. Well, I would say more the Roosevelt corollary and now something but what's being called the down road doctrine to control.
Now, this is where I believe as poor sovereignty in this region, you know, and strategic interests of all the Caribbean could help to thwart that push to really what some people see, a recolonization.
And I believe that what is important for us, especially as small states, we are still small states in an environment of a symmetrical kind of power relationship, we have to demonstrate ourselves first of all that we are together in the process.
So I would say that there is that push to regain influence in the region, but we just can't walk away and leave it. We have to recognize that the US is the maybe the great power of the hemisphere. But how about diversifying our relationships? How about seeking new alliances with countries in the hemisphere, for example, a greater linkage with countries like Brazil, which is emerging as a regional middle power, so that I think those things are possible to kind of put a limit to where the U.S. seems to be going.
[00:19:23] Speaker B: All right, Doctor, I want to thank you very much for getting up this morning and sharing your thoughts and insight with us here on Freedom. Do have yourself a beautiful and blessed day ahead and we will talk soon again in the not too distant future. Have a good one, doc.
[00:19:37] Speaker C: Thank you so much.
[00:19:38] Speaker B: You're welcome.
[00:19:39] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability, the all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.
