Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, Instant feedback, Accountability the all new talk radio freedom 106.5 joining us on our program to speak about some of these things taking place when it comes to UE staff, we have president of the West Indies Group of University teachers as welcome to our program, Dr. Indira Rampasad. Good morning to you. Nice to have you with us.
[00:00:28] Speaker B: Hi. Good morning. Hi. Good morning, Satish, how are you?
[00:00:31] Speaker A: I'm fine. It's nice to have you with us here this morning. We're hearing all kinds of things about what's taking place with UE and these discussions and the negotiations and everything else. On page 86 of the Guardian newspaper here this morning we have our Minister of Finance caller member saying that there's misinformation being bandied about on what's really going on. He said a statement yesterday in which he said what he describes as clarification that the government is not the employer of UE staff and therefore does not negotiate their terms of employment.
And he went on to say, well, the government just simply pays the money, but the negotiations really should take place between WICKET and the employer. And that because of the Industrial Relations act, the government really can't get involved in these discussions. Tell us about this. Is this true? Is it not true? You have a comment as well, But I just thought I'd read the Minister's comment because he's not here and I'll give you the opportunity to respond. Go ahead.
[00:01:37] Speaker B: Well, I believe our position has always been consistent and the same. Yes, The UE is our employer. The University of the West Indies is our employer. We don't negotiate. We do not negotiate directly with the government. However, the UB does. The UE engages in discussion whether, whatever you want to call a dialogue. It's negotiation. They negotiate because the government pays. And he admits that the government pays. So who is going to disburse the funds? Okay, who holds the post? It's the government. All right. Now in this particular scenario, the principal has been engaging the Minister of Finance. The principal has sent us communication to that effect. The principal has said that she's. I believe she said it publicly as well. So she has been engaging the Minister of Finance. So with respect to us negotiating directly with the government, that's true. We don't usually do it. There was a time when we were taking action and government officials, including a Minister of Education and a Minister of labor had come to the campus to meet with the principals who had invited us to meet with them. So there was that situation as well. So we also called to meet with the Minister in the hope of a speedy resolution.
With regard to. I think there was some talk about industrial court.
Yes, we got to have never gone to the industrial Court. There's no precedent of we got going to the industrial court. The precedent that we have is we got going to arbitration conciliation first and with the Ministry of Labor and then arbitration. But your government cannot extricate itself from any salary negotiations because the government holds the post. So it's a, it's a technicality. I think. Minister, if they are trying to exonerate themselves completely from this, this impasse, I don't think they can do it because they are the ones who have to come up with the funds to pay the UB workers sometimes.
Yeah, we got is not the only union on the campus, by the way. There are two other unions on campus.
[00:03:49] Speaker A: Some time ago we had Professor Rosemary Bell Antoine on the program and I had sought the clarification from her on this very same thing because it was about. And she had said that the UAE administration, while it is the employer, is the go between.
Almost mediator. Yeah, almost like intermediary.
I had asked her well, are you the CPO of the entire situation or can you be described as a chief personal officer in this scenario where you're between the two parties but the decision really is influenced by what the person who paying the money has to say.
And she said that's one way of looking at it.
And one would understand that the administration of Uwe Wiley, the employer can't make promises without having the approval of the people who are paid money. Because we have a whole situation now with the Port Authority with the very same thing plays off and the government seeking to not honor the agreement, saying that some of the channels that were supposed to be followed were not followed. And because of that they're not honoring the 12% that that port workers say they entitled to get at this point in time. So if we have as is postulating the Finance minister taking or wanting to take our hands off approach to the thing to somehow as you say, exonerate himself or the government or whatever else from some of the criticisms for this matter dragging on as long as it is and the UAE administration being caught in the middle, how can this matter be resolved.
[00:05:31] Speaker B: So they can't extricate themselves?
The campus or university is not the cpu. So let me get that very clear. I don't think the principal would say that the CPO makes the offer. The remit comes from the government. The CPO is an agent as an arm of the government. But what we were being told at the very beginning of all this, when this principal started to engage them, it was being shuffled, it was being shuffled from Minister of Finance to CPO to Minister of Education.
Okay. Then the, the CPO gave us a remit, the 002, which we rejected outright. Then the principal began to engage the Minister of Finance because she was told that he's the one in charge and he holds the purse. All right? And she engaged him. She actually met with him. They had a meeting and that's what she's been conveying to us. I, I don't, I would not want to think that in any way the principal is telling us untrue. The principal met and she gave us the message. She relayed messages back to us that we were supposed to do. He requested a revised, a revised salary adjustment. We did that long document. We worked together, we and the management worked together on that document. And it was submitted in March 2024. And since March 2024 we hadn't heard anything until the issue was reached in the Parliament last Friday.
So the government, whether it's the Port Authority or whether it's the SWWTU or the OWTU or the PSA or any of these state funded institutions, and I'm saying state funded institutions because they may be seen as public institutions on the one hand, but there's an element with regard to UE of autonomy as well because it is a regional organization, regional organization that is funded by governments and the governments of the various campuses have been funding their wages, their salaries, their operational costs. Okay, so in this case, yes, he's been talking about the disbursement, the subvention that the government gives to the campus. That subvention is for operating costs, okay? That's for student fees running the campus generally. But with regard to WIGOT and we got salaries, a different set of funds have to come from the government targeting that to pay for that. Okay. And that is, that is where they extricating themselves. So I think it is a new strategy now being adopted by the government with regard to these unions which have an intermediary employer and they are saying that the employee employer has to settle it, but where is the employer supposed to get that kind of money? The University of the West Indies is, as you know, a preeminent tertiary education institute. It's a not for profit organization.
Okay? So you know, the student fees, they're minimal. They're very minimal. Student fees have not been increased, I believe since 2002. So that cannot Generate money, certainly not enough money to. To pay employees outstanding salaries. And keep in mind that these are outstanding, that this is our just use. This is not additional money we are seeking. This is money that's due to us. We haven't had a salary increase since 2014. So we are now going into the 11th year, you know, of that, of no salary increase. It's 11 years. And it's a position of several other unions. This government had announced in 2015 before on the campaign trail that they were going to settle all wages and negotiations, all negotiations regarding salary, outstanding salary settlements. That was a campaign promise. As you know, politicians make all sorts of promises in the platform. And today in 2024, that has not materialized. What they've shown at people is 2%, 4% over six years. Some people have opted to accept that because they can afford to do so. And most people have not. Those who have taken it, some of them are regretting when they saw what they get, when they actually get in real terms. I don't think they really understood what they were going to get in real terms. So we cannot possibly accept that because that would not bring us up to par with the cost of living and the rise in inflation. Cost of food and fuel and housing and transportation, all of these commodities plus are increasing astronomically. So that 2% just cannot work. It wouldn't cut it.
[00:10:13] Speaker A: Yeah. What are the possible outcomes in this scenario moving forward?
[00:10:19] Speaker B: Well, we continue our action until we get here. Some some positive news. We continue. We have this week plan is another white week. Our members are going to sit and rest and reflect and research in their offices. And we're white in solidarity with the union. So it's a sort of, you know, it's not even go slow. It's a halt in terms of campus activities. So it's all system shutdown of all the departments and libraries. The human resource division, the Registry, Marketing and Communication, the bookstore, the student services, the department of Facilities Management, the offices of the principal and deputy Principal spec, The graduate study section, examination section, admissions, all campus department centers and institutes. So we are calling for a shutdown basically for the day of rest and reflection and research. A week of rest, reflection and research. This week they're wearing white.
And next week it's not another week of black, okay. Where we would see that all those that are not essential workers don't have to even be there if they are there, the essential workers, they were black. But we would see a shutdown of all these departments as well. Their classes have ceased because the students are going into exam next week. This week is a week of reading week for the students.
We have agreed to allow the exams to go through next week. But come January we can see the withholding of students grades.
[00:11:59] Speaker A: Somebody asking a question here via WhatsApp message about students and whether or not they are getting the kind of support that they would need at a time like this from whoever would render that kind of support. Is it a situation where the education of these students is suffering as a result of the industrial action or all that's taking place or are students being catered for regardless?
[00:12:25] Speaker B: Well, we don't look at that, look at it that way because we're not targeting students and we are not even suffer students. Okay, so when the antec blackout in protests, whether it's a day or night, I mean there are implications. You know, there is, there's, there's cause. So we believe we have a just cause.
The guild president, acting guild president and secretary has expressed their solidarity with our cause. They understand the cause. They understand that this is a means towards an end and the students are not the targets. There is action. We don't expect everyone to, to be in solidarity with our action. And it certainly not get towards suffering students. And I don't think the students are suffering per se because this is their reading week.
And it's not targeted to that, it's not aimed towards, you know, causing suffering to students. So that's not the way we look at it. And I think the students, when they were interviewed, many of them identify with our course. Their parents are undergoing the same thing because many of them are public servants. Some work with uwtu. They were in different unions as WWTU Port authority. So the students are understanding what is happening.
The parents are in the same boat and several of them, many of them are part time, part time workers. They're actually employed also in the public sector. So they're part time students. So they understand perfectly what is going on. I mean there will be those who are, who, who would not agree with the action. We expect that, we always expect that. When Wasa cut the water and the population has to endure some hardship because of that for a while, then so be it. That is the nature of trade unionism. But with the action is geared towards expeditious resolution. That's the purpose of the action. It's not geared to targeting students to suffer that that may happen. But it's geared towards a quick, speedy, expeditious resolution. So we would be willing, if tomorrow it is settled to go back, you know, to Go back to normalcy at the campus.
[00:14:37] Speaker A: So can we expect is a situation already, I'm not sure where students are joining on the side of WIGOT in protest because they support the cause.
[00:14:48] Speaker B: So they haven't come out openly and said that. But the Guild, guild president and secretary has expressed their solidarity. They actually have having elections, if I'm not mistaken there by election because the last guild president resigned.
[00:15:01] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:15:01] Speaker B: So there's an acting president. So I think they are caught up with that election right now.
[00:15:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:06] Speaker B: No, that's their main focus.
[00:15:08] Speaker A: The Minister of Finance in today's story is citing sections of the Industrial Court act, the Industrial Relations act that says that this matter cannot be taken to the Industrial Court because the. And it. I'm reading it here, it says section 2, 3C of the Industrial Relations act explicitly excludes university teaching staff from being classified as workers eligible for recourse at the Industrial Court.
If that's. If we to take what the minister is telling us as true, this matter can only be resolved if there is some sort of acceding from either side. Either the Ministry of Finance decided here we're going, we're going to give you more money so that they could cater for this increase. Or Wigard says, well here we'll back down on what we're asking for.
Which of the two seems more realistic?
[00:16:12] Speaker B: The gut is not going to back down. I just told you we have a hole. We have weeks of activities planned. We're not accepting 002. We're not. This is our just use. We're going to fight for justice. We're going to fight for justice and we're going to continue to fight for justice. Okay? Because we believe that what we are doing is right.
This is. This is not unreasonable. What we are doing is right. So the options are this. So it's not a minister, it's the Industrial Relations Act. He rightly cited the Industrial Relations Act. We do not go to the Industrial Court. We agree with that. So that's one thing we agree on. Because it's the Act. It's not a statement from the Minister. It is the Act. It is the law. Okay? We abide by the law. We have law abiding union. We negotiate in good faith. Okay? So yes, we do not access the Industrial Court. You're asking what are the other measures? So there's alternative dispute resolution, which is conciliation and arbitration. Conciliation through the Ministry of Labor, which is usually the first step. And then after that it's arbitration. But with that you have both of those, you have to get the consent of the parties. Now the question would arise, who are the parties? Who are the parties here? So the employer is a party and the union is a party. And the government could be brought in as a party. Right, the government could be brought in as a party. And if the government refused to consent, that is. That is something that can even be challenged in court. Because if you are paying the.
If you're paying. If you're paying the salaries, if you're holding the boost, how can you abdicate with your responsibility to do so? So if he's saying it's not him, then who in the government is responsible? Because there has to be someone in the government who has to disburse the funds. Okay, The Minister of finance holds the bills. The CPO is the one who the offer goes to and provides a remit. The line minister is the Minister of Education.
And traditionally we've gone to the Minister of education, but we were told that. I mean, I think it's even by her that she's not. She's not in charge of these negotiations. So it's passing the buck. It's political football.
It's political football kicking the unions around from minister, line minister, whichever one it may be. CPO to Minister of Finance. And this is the game that they are playing. However, interestingly, we say that they can determine their own salaries. They can determine their own salaries through recommendations of the Salaries Review Commission because it has to go to Parliament for their approval through the legislation. Right. So we've seen a different kettle of fish when it comes to them. So all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.
Vast inequities in the system.
[00:19:03] Speaker A: What is. I don't know if unfortunate is the right term to use, but it's unfortunate that the situation with these negotiations have gotten to the stage that they have. University campus in St. Augustine, prior to some of these developments, was not known for this kind of activity, for the protests and all of the activities that we got is being forced to undertake at this point in time to. To move the negotiations along.
And I don't want to. I don't know if I. If I'd be correct to say that it's an indictment against the people who can make a difference from wanting to make that difference or not. And from what you've outlined to us and what the minister is saying, the track record of this Minister of finance is that he does not bow to Prussia.
He does not take too kindly to some of the exertions that trade unions try to, to put forward in matters like these and push them along. He's not that kind of individual. It doesn't seem to have the impact or effect on him that one would expect because he has shown time and time again that he stands resolute with his position in the budget presentation. He made some pronouncements on wage negotiations. I think he made some on these about we got take it or leave it or whatever else he had to say.
This is not a matter that from all that's in the public domain is going to be resolved anytime soon.
How long is we got prepared to stand its ground?
[00:20:32] Speaker B: As long as we have to.
Like I said, we're not, we're not going to relent. We are unrelenting in the face of. On the. In the face of injustice. By the way, yes, there will be got activities in the past. I've been in the Union since 2008 and even before me. I mean from my time, long time. I mean this is where, this is how we are. Where we are. The unions have fought the unions of what by the way, the Minister of finance was with that member. I believe even with that executive member. If I'm not mistaken, so was the Prime Minister. They were both without members at the university. So they understand, they understand the needs of the staff.
So we're not going to relentless. We have, there has to be, there has to be some solution at some point in time because things, things are going to come to a head very soon. Very, very soon. Things are going to come to a head when the impact is going to be felt. I see. The value of the UE needs to be understood. Satish. We are the preeminent tertiary institution in the Caribbean. Our global rankings are in the top 1 5% in the world. Okay. Our Vice chancellor frequently cite those statistics.
You have to understand the value of teachers. We are not just teachers. You have to understand the value of the employees. Academic, senior, administrative and professional staff, the group that we represent. If you do not understand the value of this group, okay, then we can force you to understand. We can force you to understand because you cannot just pick up lecturer on the side of the street and expect them to go in front of our classroom and teach students, do research, publish and everything else that we do at the university.
[00:22:16] Speaker A: Yeah. I want to thank you for being with us here this morning and giving us some perspective on the discussion as to exactly what's going on, who are the players and some of the eventualities that might come as of this situation. What's clear though is that there'll be the need for a part two to our discussions as things unfold or as they fail to unfold moving forward, depending on what happens. I want to thank you for being with us here this morning. The best insight, instant feedback, accountability, the all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.
