Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability the all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Let's switch gears a bit this morning. I did tell you guys I have a guest and it's coming. Ms. Cavell Joseph. I remember Ms. Cavell. Ms. Cavell, good morning to you.
I think you'll have to unmute your phone.
[00:00:23] Speaker C: Good morning. Devi.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: There you are. Ms. Covell Joseph, President of Human Resource Management association of Trinidad and Tobago. Hermat, good morning and welcome to Freedom 106.5 FM yet again.
[00:00:37] Speaker C: Good morning, good morning and thank you for having me and of course having the association on your program.
[00:00:45] Speaker B: Always, always a pleasure. Our topic this morning deals with businesses that fail to address workplace diversity.
Now, when we look at that situation, we accuse the government of the past for failing to have diversification in the economy and putting all their eggs into one basket, such as the energy sector and neglecting the orange economy, neglecting the green economy and other sectors. Even the creatives in this country, we push aside.
What is the meaning of workplace diversity? Let's start with that.
[00:01:20] Speaker C: Well, interestingly and what I find curious, when people talk about workplace diversity, they always seem to zero in on one element of it and don't have a full appreciation for what workplace diversity actually means.
We are living in a time, Devi, where it's the most diverse population in world history. Right now in terms of the generations, the different collective mix of differences and representation in the workforce. Right now this includes, you have the non visible things like race, gender, age, religion, sexual orientation, physical abilities, education, socioeconomic background. Diversity covers all those things.
And in the workspace we have the most diverse workforce. When we consider the different demographics that exist, that we have five generations in the workplace that experience the world very differently. And therefore it continues to be a relevant issue because of the differences that we have in terms of what represents the workforce versus what happened many years ago. At one point women weren't even permitted to work, for example. Now you have a lot more women in the workspace. What does that mean for people who grew accustomed or grew up in a time when it was not like that? Now you have migrant and migrant issues as well in the workspace as well. How do we welcome people with differences into that space?
And so therefore it really covers the collective presence of a wide range of human differences within an organization. That's essentially what it is.
[00:03:07] Speaker B: Now when we look at workplace diversification, there is a common myth or an ideology that you had a higher unqualified person's positions.
Can you speak on that? What do you think about that widening the net, you know, so even if you're not qualified, we want to diversify. So you're coming in. Does it mean that.
[00:03:39] Speaker C: No, it certainly doesn't. And again, I find these arguments to be so interesting, especially when we consider what happens in other countries, right? It does not mean hiring unqualified people.
It simply means that we focus on removing barriers to find qualified candidates from different backgrounds. So sometimes, and I could tell you, as an HR professional, over the years, I have encountered colleagues who deliberately choose to hire only students who graduate from a particular institution. I knew one person who looked for Bishop Gills, and this is true. This is a true example, right? If you graduated from bishops and C High school, you had a good chance of getting hired in that organization, because that is the people she wanted. That is what we're talking about when we say DEI and removing barriers, that exists. So somebody else who did not go to bishops have an equal chance of getting the job. When you have the initiatives. It doesn't mean that we are breaking down on removing all the required things that qualify you for the job. There was an interview with a gentleman that I saw online, and he said blatantly that when he sees black pilots, he automatically has a fare when the pilot is black. And I couldn't understand it, because the fact that he's a pilot meant that he went, he studied, he got his qualifications, he did the hours, and therefore he's qualified to fly that plane. But they have the perception that when somebody. When there's. When there's. When there are DEI initiatives, that somehow the requirements to get hired in the job is removed. That is not what it means. It means giving everyone an equal chance, regardless of your race, your gender, what background, whether from a village or a major city, it does not matter. Once you are qualified and you top a process that you are hired, that it's not going to someone else because they went to a prestige school and you didn't go through. And the other person went through secondary school. All these biases exist that we are trying now to remove from the workplace.
[00:05:54] Speaker B: That is what it means when we look at that. And I'm glad you mentioned the pilot. I am very passionate about aviation. I'll probably send you a message and tell you why. But the thing is.
Females. You mentioned females. Now we have female astronauts.
And I remember I was boarding a flight to Miami and a gentleman came on the flight.
He didn't express nervousness because the pilot was black.
He expressed nervousness because the pilot was a woman.
And on her shoulder, she had four bars.
She looked young.
And the first officer seems to be an ageable gentleman.
And he nervous because I heard he was talking behind me and I had to ask him, I said, what's the issue?
I felt so happy to see this woman piloting this what could be perceived as 75 or even $155 million aircraft.
And we travel into Miami. And the thing about it is the stigma attached to his comments, the biases in his tone. So because the first officer is aged, looks a bit aged and she looks to be maybe in her late 30s, the officer looks to be maybe in his early 50s or whatever, he felt that it should be a switch around and that she shouldn't even be there. She should be in the back serving coffee and tea.
[00:07:21] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And unfortunately we do have a lot of people walking around with those views. And as I said, there are five different generations at play and they all see the world very differently. What you've described is ageism. And ageism exists even when we look at recruiting elderly or people who are more mature candidates. And it also exists when you look at recruiting young professionals as well too, recognizing that sometimes in some workplaces there's unfair treatment and stereotyping of people who based just simply based on their age. So there's a gender, what you've described as a gender and age combination in one right now that can negatively impact a job seeker at the end of the day, hiring and posting of jobs and interviewing and, and all of that. Some that again, because I have so much years experience and for some reason my career took me down the path of being in an industry that is very male dominated. You find that even in how some people frame questions, they favor particular candidates based on how questions are framed. Whether you're looking for a younger candidate or you assume that you want an older candidate. I've even interviewed people who said in the interview, this is the interviewee now they'll be hiring me to come and report to no young man and no young woman. You know this, this was actually said in an interview room, right. By a candidate. So biases and ageism exist as well too. So therefore, over the years, even within the HR field, we've come up with competency based questions and interviewing now so that you focus on somebody's experience, experiences and whether or not they could actually effectively do the job rather than ask them where you see yourself next five years, what are your strengths and your weaknesses.
If you were an animal, what type of animal you would be moved away from those type of questions. And it's more competency based. So irrespective of your age, your gender, your race, whether you come from a village over there, you live in the capital city, you, it matters not. Based on how you respond to those questions, it determines whether or not you have a competency to do the job. So that is some of the ways. Now you try to remove biases that exist within a system and make things a little bit more equitable and inclusive for everyone. And that is the point of dei. And we go back to why DEI still remain relevant, because unfortunately, we do have biases. And I mean, as humans, you're dealing with at the end of the day too. So you try to remove subjectivity as best as you can from the equation as well.
So with a mature candidate, you may think this person, oh my gosh, has all this experience and has the most amount of experience, and then with a young candidate, that person is qualified, right? Has been tested, tried and tested and bringing in fresh perspective perspectives that a company may actually need. So why not try to get the best out of both worlds in a workspace? And that is why DEI initiatives become important.
Because now we try to get the best out of everyone's lived experiences and even people who are new entrants into the workspace, they have value that they can now add. Because we're dealing with a totally different education system. We're dealing with new technology, new ideas, and if we marry that with what existed before, an organization has great potential to do well rather than to hold on to certain views and perspectives. Like if you only went to CIC or Fatima College, that you have to be great, as opposed to someone who may have gone through a very good secondary school system and excelled and did well and is in fact just as qualified.
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[00:12:21] Speaker A: Now engage with Davey on the allnew Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.
[00:12:42] Speaker B: We are chatting with Ms.
Just to remind you guys, Cavell Joseph St. Omar. Did I, did I get that correct?
[00:12:51] Speaker C: Yes, and you left out the sentiment earlier.
[00:12:53] Speaker B: I, I now remember. I realized, you know, you see, I, I like it when it's just Cavell St. Omar. I don't know where the Joseph coming from.
[00:13:03] Speaker C: What do you mean? I was Border Joseph.
[00:13:05] Speaker B: Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Your father no longer responsible for you. The man who married you responsible now.
So I mean, if it was me, it would have been Cavell St. Omar, full stop.
[00:13:16] Speaker C: I hear you.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: Mr. St. Omar, good morning to you wherever you stand and thank you so much for sharing your wife's thoughts with us this morning. She is the president of Human Resource Management association of Trinidad and Tobago, fondly known as hermat. With that being said, you mentioned something a few moments ago and I want to ask you about it because it is something I often wonder. I remember sitting before a panel of about five persons 20 something years ago when I was applying or got into TSTT a long time, there was eight people on the panel. Three went to lunch by the time I got into the room for the meeting.
However, that was my first experience before so many persons.
[00:14:00] Speaker E: Right.
[00:14:01] Speaker B: While applying for a job in the past. It's one person and you why the need now? Why the increase in a panel conducting interviews to bring in recruits? Why is the panel necessary and not one person or two, perhaps?
[00:14:18] Speaker C: Well, I mean, it depends on the role within the organizations. Organizations may use large interview panels to evaluate candidates simultaneously and to reduce individual hiring biases as well.
Because with that you get multiple perspectives.
In terms of my current role, for example, the panel was five reasons when I was interviewed and I went through four phases of a process including an assessment center, a psych evaluation, all these different things. So employers or organizations use multiple ways to hire and hire for the right candidate. And also it's a way to reduce bias because when you have the combined scores from a panel like that of that size, you could see now from the diverse evaluation and the diverse perspectives, the panel may very well collectively zero in on the right candidate for the job. It's one way to reduce biases in some instances too. Again, I said it depends on the rule. So it may be a position that has a cross functional, that has cross functional responsibilities. In the organization.
And therefore you want the input. So HR would bring together different supervisors or managers or technical experts from the different departments that the person who will likely be selected out of this process will be interacting with. So there are some positions you have to interact with multiple departments within the organization.
Efficiency could be a way as well too, in terms of consolidating multiple persons in one space rather than having one to one interviews and having around one, around two, around three as well. So it's probably an organization way of being more efficient rather than having it one on one on each occasion. And to me, it also demonstrates some level of democracy in an organization as well. That style, when you have, when it comes down to it, the scores and then the mean of each score is now what will be, what will be used to determine who is the best candidate. So in that regard, I could say I could see some benefits to having a panel, you know, at least above, at least more than three persons on a panel, an interview panel.
[00:16:49] Speaker E: Right.
[00:16:51] Speaker C: And that's, that's the reason why an organization would do that for the candidate now and the persons who are preparing for interviews like that. And to me, in today's world, anyone who is presenting themselves to an organization should be prepared for panels no less than three. And learn how to have the level of eye engagement and interaction, because remember, you're being assessed. So how you interact with the panel, the eye contact you make and all of that says a lot about you, the candidate as well too. And all of that, your body language and all of that is being assessed in the process. So it's not only your response to the question, but the level of engagement and interaction with the panel is also, also being assessed.
[00:17:36] Speaker B: I'm very happy that you say that. I, I understood the process years later about being a part of it. I'm opening from the lines, please. 30 seconds. Ask your question and let's move on, please. Hello. Good morning.
[00:17:48] Speaker E: Morning. Well, I support the AI in certain environment, like if you're making fun of, you want to give everybody a break. But if I'm going to a dentist, a dentist clinic, I don't want any DEI in that environment. I want the best of the best, only going forward.
That's your opinion. Thanks.
[00:18:09] Speaker B: Okay, I don't disagree. I don't think the dental office will hire anybody outside any less qualified to be in there.
You describe a furniture store.
A carpenter shop is different. You know, you could go in a carpenter shop and learn on the job, but you, you can't learn to be a dentist on the job.
[00:18:29] Speaker C: And again, there are so many myths, and it's unfortunate that sometimes a term is demonized the way sometimes DEI is. It does not mean that you're lowering hiring standards. It does not mean you are hiring unqualified people.
That is not what DEI means.
None of those things happen.
It means everyone has an equal shot at getting a job. So when you are the dentist, of course, is a qualified person you'd expect to see, regardless of what they look like or what background they're from. That is the point. It is not about lowering a standard. The standard is not lowered.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: So they think diversification, equality and equity. What does the DAI stands for?
[00:19:16] Speaker C: Diversity, Equity and Inclusion.
[00:19:18] Speaker F: Right.
[00:19:18] Speaker B: So they feel that because it's. It's inclusive that unqualified and unsuitable persons will get a position. That's what that means for people out there. That's the common.
[00:19:27] Speaker C: That is what some people mean and I think it means.
And at the end of the day, that is not even what inclusion means. No, inclusion really is how you create a space where everybody feel like they belong. You know, you come into an environment, you're well equipped, you're well qualified. And even this includes how we treat persons who have kids versus people who don't have kids. You know, all of that is part of it, right? When you don't have inclusive policies or policies that is unfair to one group versus another as well. Inclusivity is just how you make someone feel. That state of being and belonging into an organization.
Fair treatment, whether we embrace differences.
So whether or not I choose not, I mean, I don't have any kids, so you could find me sitting in an office very late and not even realizing the time. And that actually happens, right? I'm like, oh, this is the time versus someone who may have to leave early to pick up her child. She shouldn't be disadvantaged because she has that responsibility. That is what it actually means.
Creating a fair working environment or workspace for everyone.
So DEI doesn't mean that the dentist that is treating you is unqualified or less qualified.
[00:20:40] Speaker B: Thank you for saying that.
[00:20:42] Speaker C: We have not lowered the standard for hiring. The job description is what it is. The requirements, some positions, the requirements are in law. It's law at the end of the day that, oh yes, the candidate has to have these things in order to be considered. The legal practice is one that is regulated by law. For example, now you have in health and safety regulations, in procurement regulations, there are laws in place. And any employer who is found guilty of hiring someone who's not qualified for A job also could face negligence challenges as well.
[00:21:17] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:21:18] Speaker C: So try and understand that. And in the United States there is something called negligent hiring.
[00:21:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:24] Speaker C: If you deliberately and a company has penalties in place. So I don't know why people who hold on to that perception that it means you give somebody a chance. It does not mean that it means as a recruiter, any person that is qualified, competent, regardless of whether they went to a prestige school or not, whether they come from south versus North. Because when I was going to university, I am from south originally. And I could tell you we would tease for being Southerners.
[00:21:56] Speaker E: Right.
[00:21:57] Speaker C: Wes was the best this.
[00:21:59] Speaker E: Right.
[00:22:00] Speaker C: So at the end of the day, it removes all those things. I participated in a program years ago. I wouldn't call the organization name, but I recall the internship program that they had. And one of the companies that participated in that program, the HR manager stood up and said she did not want anyone who came from behind the bridge. At that point in time, I did not know what it meant because I was young and I was from south. So I never, I did not hear that concept. But at the end of the day, every child in that room was a university student.
So it matters not whether from the bridge, behind the bridge, over the bridge. To me, those things don't matter. So DEI Initiatives is to give everyone who is qualified a fair chance. You know, nobody's saying that you're not qualified.
[00:22:51] Speaker B: There is something very pertinent that you stated enshrined in law, employers for specific jobs, certain professions. If those qualifications are absent and you are hired still to do the job, the employer face negligent charges.
An airline company, for example, hires a pilot but is not qualified.
Or a company discovers that qualifications presented by a particular candidate that was hired has proven to be false, it was fraudulent. The company now has a legal obligation to dismiss such a person and perhaps report them to the fraud squad.
So if for some reason somebody else comes in, do due diligence and discover, wait, these papers submitted this certificate, who you said sign it in Cambridge. No person said there was never enrolled. There's nothing. And you may find it out years later. It may take a few months later, you know, you may find out, I'm not going to hold you accountable if you're now, if you find it out a year and a half later, the person gave you fraud papers. Because people are very good at becoming fraudsters these days. So I have no problems if you find out later. But once you find out, when you become aware, you address the matter. That's My concern. Good morning. Quickly.
[00:24:09] Speaker F: Morning, qdv. Morning.
Now, which to me this is a real good topic with respect to dei.
Now, what model that you think we should have in Trinidad in relation to discriminatory act, because you just refer to the states in relation to legislation to deal with what something hiring. Do you think we should have that here? And David, let me give one example. There's a particular company, very good company in Trinidad.
The employees is really diversified. However, there are religious factors that they bring into space where even if you have been an event, if you're unmarried, you can't come, your children can't come. These things. Should there be laws for these kind of things to more or less prevent an employer from bringing the religious aspect into the company so that people can have their way, not loosely, but to work in a comfort that they wouldn't have to take into consideration religious factors. And morning to you again, Kavala, you don't know who you're talking to, but me talk.
[00:25:07] Speaker B: All right, Cavell, you want to respond?
[00:25:10] Speaker C: Well, the thing is, I mean, we have somewhat of a platform to work with already with the Equal Opportunities act and the Equal Opportunity Tribunal that exists to treat with some matters. We know it doesn't cover all possible forms of discrimination as the case may be. There are some gaps.
[00:25:30] Speaker E: Right.
[00:25:30] Speaker C: But there is in fact a model that we could at least work with. So that model now could be expanded a little bit further. Whether you call it the anti discrimination expansion. I mean, it's something that the government could consider. But certainly that legislation is a starting ground and could be expanded, core mechanisms.
We've had civil society organizations like KAISO and a few others who have advocated for some for directly building on the established infrastructure that already exists with the EOC and the eot, which is the Equal Opportunities Commission and the Equal Opportunity Tribunal.
Right. So the arguments over the years have been that this mechanism that currently exists is a little bit more reactive and compliant, planes driven.
And we need a model that is a little bit more proactive, that would force organizations to implement programs or to at least I guess to prevent discriminatory practices in the workplace, something to force that is a little bit more forceful. So we've had civil society organizations advocate for that right in terms of waiting for an individual to file a claim or lawsuit.
We need models that legally obligates public and private organizations to actively design inclusive environments through their policies and procedures as well.
A lot of it could be driven by the market. So we see for example, now ESG and a lot of companies now trying to comply with that ESG model, which will favor, you know, in terms of even in their procurement practices and all of that, the kind of paperwork and submissions now that you'd have to make under the ESG model.
It requires or mandates that organizations have certain policies and codes in place in order to get opportunities, like even from the UNDP funding and things like that. So there's the ESG model as well, that could be used as coverage.
So at the end of the day, we know history will tell us in our country and based on our culture, that legislation is what forces us in a particular direction.
We knew, we saw it with seatbelts, something as simple as seatbelts. People were getting into accidents, lives were being lost, and the seatbelt was always there.
People just choose not to wear it until law came into place and it became illegal for you now to be driving and to have a passenger, especially in the front seat, without seat belt on. The same thing with US and US regulations. And it took law now so that a workplace could be safe and construction sites could be safe and the employer gave the worker a safety boot and the hard hat and all of that. But before that you go to work and it's a pair of slippers, no harness, all these different things.
[00:28:33] Speaker E: Right.
[00:28:34] Speaker C: So we know culturally legislation is what forces compliance, unfortunately. But we do have good companies out there who has done a lot of great work in this area without or in the absence of legislation. They've gone ahead and have their policies in place. They've ensured that their practices are right, that they don't discriminate and things like that. So therefore, I would suggest, based on the callers question, that certainly the model that we have now, that it be amended and revamped and strengthened and that we do have the reporting of it, so it does not become reactive, but a way for companies now to comply by their submissions annually. The same way we have to file tax returns and all of that each year. Some way of filing, like what would happen in Scandinavia countries and all of that, you know, in Scandinavia, Davy, they actually, because they want to ensure equal pay for equal work, they actually have audits of payrolls. Companies are audited. I mean, of course, not every company each year, but similar to how NIB would audit to make sure you're complying with the submission of NIS payments every year, some companies are selected in other countries just to ensure that you are actually paying people fairly and all of that. They audit your books as well too.
[00:29:52] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:29:53] Speaker C: So. So there are different models that could be Utilized. But we know in our society law is the strongest, the strongest way, piece
[00:30:04] Speaker B: of mechanism to hold people because of
[00:30:06] Speaker C: our behavior naturally as well to an easy way to force or to change behavior. To change behavior. Yeah. It is really legislation because of culturally how we behave as citizens.
[00:30:18] Speaker B: All right, two things before we wrap the interview. One, Texas says, hi, good morning. Another question.
Let's say there's an ad for position and only one type of person. Let's say a woman applies.
Is it that there. Is it that DEI or diversification means we are only going to hire three women because there are 10 positions and there are six positions. And we want to make sure that the other positions are filled with diverse businesses about persons or, you know, what about orientation, gender, race and best person.
[00:30:54] Speaker E: Right.
[00:30:54] Speaker B: So they're asking if it's if you will try to hire a woman just to show diversification even if a woman didn't apply for the job kind of thing.
[00:31:03] Speaker C: No. And again, I want to reiterate, that is not what DEI means.
[00:31:06] Speaker B: Good.
[00:31:07] Speaker C: It does not require an employer to hire an unqualified candidate or to fill a quota. It's not a numbers game. Let me tell you.
Some professions are feminized, right? HR is one of those professions where it's predominantly women in the field.
So if the same, the same could be said. Now you go into an organization and you look at the HR department and you see a whole set of women.
But if it's a feminized industry, because men are not.
Men are not studying to become HR professionals or shine away, it doesn't mean an employer have to go see searching for one male to hire a male just because of the fact that they're looking to fill a quota. You know, the same way with accounting. Accounting has become very feminized as well.
Some elements of the legal fraternity, like the magistrates and all of that, you've seen a lot more women as magistrates. Now. It does not mean you are filling a quota and trying to find somebody who not qualified just to say, hire a male or you hire a female. If that is, if that is if based on your ad and the people who have responded to the ad, and it was predominantly women or men, you go ahead with your process.
[00:32:19] Speaker B: Nice.
[00:32:20] Speaker C: It doesn't mean that.
[00:32:21] Speaker B: And final question, and final question, as we get set to the news coming up at the top of the hour and we say thank you to Ms. Covell. You mentioned the animal. I know, I seen the cause there, but we can't take anymore. You mentioned the animal, right? If somebody asks him, you Are HR professional? You're the president. And they describe themselves. They say well I is a snake. If you ask me what kind of animal I like. I like snakes. Because there are people who have pet snakes in the world, right?
What they saying they are snake. Would that assist you with hiring the person the type of animal that they say? I mean, you mentioned as a question we moved away from. But I'm just going back a little bit to understand what HR was looking for when they asked about the animal.
[00:32:58] Speaker C: Well, the thing is, if you see yourself as a snake, there are positive qualities and negative aspects of a snake, you know, so you have to ask the candidate why you see yourself as a snake. Whether or not it has the ability to contort itself and therefore move and be more agile. There are a number of arguments that could present itself in favor of that candidate.
And look at the positive qualities of a snake. A snake doesn't always. I know when we speak in laymans
[00:33:27] Speaker B: you get a point.
[00:33:30] Speaker C: Might be someone who is. Who will betray you.
[00:33:33] Speaker A: Right.
[00:33:34] Speaker C: Who is a tattletail, however you choose to describe it. Right. Someone who. Someone who cannot be trusted. Usually that's the connotation based on layman's term about what a snake is. But if someone describes themselves as a. As a snake, it doesn't have to be a negative connotation.
There are positive attributes of a snake.
So that. That would be my response. And you would ask the person to express what they mean by that. What do you mean a snake? And then by their response you'll get a deeper appreciation for what they mean. But it doesn't mean. Oh my gosh, you say a snake so they automatically dismiss.
[00:34:12] Speaker B: Yeah, because I could be a pit viper that I will attack our clients. I would go after them aggressively. I would make sure that the competition I will bite into them and chew them. Is venom for them. They can't come across here. And I can slither into places and get into rooms where other persons can. You know, there's so. And I like the angle because I want to show people that the DEI process is not one to fear, is not one to see. As you hear it. Oh my gosh. They had to include. No, just as I mentioned the snake. That's the comparison. And you answered it pretty well. Ms. Covell. Joseph St. Omar, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to sharing with us this morning.
This is a topic I would like to revisit with you. So I'm putting it out into the universe and I'm going to speak to the producer. I would like to reinvite you next week to join me again maybe around the same time Thursday for us to have a part two in discussions as we deal with diversification in the workspace. Yeah.
[00:35:02] Speaker D: Okay.
[00:35:03] Speaker C: David. Well, thank you so much for giving her ma this opportunity to discuss this topic. Firstly, we more than welcome the opportunity to demystify certain topics as well.
[00:35:15] Speaker B: Lovely.
[00:35:16] Speaker C: I think the average person out there, they have a lot of things.
There are a number of things that are misunderstood. And if we could add some clarity to it, we welcome that opportunity. Thank you so much.
[00:35:27] Speaker B: You have just given me an idea. HR and you, what does it mean? I think we could create a segment with it. Ms. St. Omar, I think we could look at it because I often come to the conferences and we cover the conferences with Hermat and it's always a pleasure when I meet with you and we chat and we laugh and I interview persons. I think there's a lot of misconceptions and myths out there when it comes to HR that we can clear up on Freedom. So I would put it out there to the producer to bring you back next week, Thursday around the same time for us to have a part two today's discussion. I thank you.
[00:35:58] Speaker C: Thank you so much and have a blessed day to you and your listenership, of course.
[00:36:02] Speaker B: Thank you very much. Have a good one. All right.
[00:36:05] Speaker A: The best insight. Instant feedback, Accountability. The all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.
