Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: And it's time for us to turn our attention to elections 2025. The election observers here in TNT. Peter Wickham, political consultant, good morning to you, sir.
[00:00:18] Speaker C: Hey, morning. Morning, David. Good to be back with you again.
[00:00:20] Speaker B: Indeed. So I see it was bobbing your head when you was listening to Detailing or that thing. Why?
I don't know if you got it, because coming down to the NSCHANI was. I don't know what you. If you got a little piece, but I will message you. I'll message you. All right.
[00:00:35] Speaker C: Okay. All right, no problem.
[00:00:36] Speaker B: Outside of that, let's take our attention over to the election observers here in Trinidad and Tobago. And of course, as I said, it's no stranger to the political landscape. Regionally, we would have had CARICOM national nations inviting each other to come and observe the electoral process. Now, first of and foremost, to help the average citizen understand what is the. Before I do that, is something else I need to do very quickly.
I need to do this very, very quickly.
All right, good press. Right.
So as I was saying, as we chat now with Peter Wickham, the political consultant election 2025 and election observers. Look, let us get to these, to the point as to understanding what an election observer does. You know, what is it when they come into the country, if you can walk me through the process, so people will understand who these people are and when they come, what they're actually going to do.
[00:01:37] Speaker C: Okay, well, I mean, I want to do that. But first let me give a sense of what is the relevance of an election observer. To start with, I tend to think that election observers are like a paying job on a house.
It does make the house look a lot better. But functionally, election observers are not.
They don't make a huge functional difference in terms of the way that an election works. And I'll explain later why I'm saying that I support the idea of election observers, but I always preface these comments by making the point that Barbados has never had election observers ever in our history. The United Kingdom does not have election observers. The United States does not ever have election observers. They wouldn't think of such a thing.
However, election observers are used in places where there are questions raised as to the authenticity of elections. And I think that's probably the best way I can put it. And they give a seal of approval so that ultimately what it is, the type of person that is used is usually either a university professor or alternatively a politician. So former politicians who are now out of active politics are used heavily by the Commonwealth Secretariat, which is essentially the primary election observer unit in the Commonwealth. And they tend to be the types of people that you pull and then, as I said, university professors, lecturers and people like that. I've been asked to do observation mission on one occasion and then the opposition objected because my name was known in the politics locally. So you tend to look for people who don't have any skin in the game, people who know the system, who know how it should work, who have been part of it, but who don't have any scheme in the game, who are ultimately neither one way or the other. I tend to think that the importance of objectivity in many instances is less relevant than people think. So there was an incident once in one of the Caribbean elections where a former Prime Minister was asked to be part of an observer mission, I believe it was to Antigua. And there were questions raised about the fact that he had a personal relationship with the current Prime Minister that pre existed when they were both prime ministers together or ministers. And this is a challenge that is placed in the Caribbean by the Commonwealth, the CARICOM Secretariat, which is new to the observer game, where you try to pull in Caribbean people to do Caribbean observation. And it becomes challenging because in the Caribbean we all know each other and it makes it difficult because there's an assumption that familiarity breeds contempt, and wherever there's familiarity, that you may have have a bias. And that's the reason why the Commonwealth is. Is ultimately been the better unit, because they can pull people from India and Africa and the Pacific and drop them in the Caribbean, and the likelihood of them having a close relationship with anybody here is a lot lower. So the question as to what they do, invariably when they come to the country, they will start out by interviewing the election management team to see if they have all the dots, all the I's dotted and t's crossed in terms of the setup of the machinery, because they have an idea of how a machine should work, an election machine should work. Then they would speak to both government and opposition to see whether they have any concerns in relation to how things are being done. Things like registration, the kinds of issues that have come up historically would be voter identification, whether it is authentic and rigorous. Trundle and Tobago uses electoral ink, so they may want to test to see whether the electoral ink stands up to the kind of rigor that one would normally expect in terms of people being able to get it off with bleach and that kind of thing. Whether that's possible. And then they would speak to other, well, other like government opposition, other NGOs. So, for example, women's groups have often raised concern about the number of women candidates and the concerns about the fact that they don't have equal opportunity. The church is often interviewed and they raise concern about the moral fabric and the fact that there was too much mobile on the campaign, the trail and cussing and on the platform and whatnot. They raise objections about that. So these are the kinds of pre election activities that the observers would conduct just to see what is happening. And they also speak to ordinary people on the street. You know, they could listen to your program and listen to what some of your callers are raising as concerns, because if anyone has concerns about the conduct of the election, they can pick that up, they will put that into their report.
And then when it comes to election day, let me just fast forward. They would move around to polling stations just to make sure that there's nothing happening. This on toward the point is, in the country the size of Trinidad and Tobago, with thousands of polling stations, it's virtually impossible to have observation mission big enough to have any impact on election day. And that's one of the reasons why I said it's kind of like paint on a house, because there's not a lot that they can do, but nonetheless they can go around to see whether there's anything obvious.
In Saint Kitts and Nevis, in the past, there was an occasion when a large number of overseas voters came in and they were inserted, or there was an attempt to insert them into the electoral lanes. Because the flight came after the 6 o'clock and because of the size of St Kitts, it was relatively easy for the press to alert the observers to get to those polling stations. And essentially the insertion was avoided. So one could say it worked fairly effectively in that regard. So that's what they would do on election day. And then they would monitor the count to make sure that the count goes well and there's nothing untoward. So they would have to select particular polling stations, counting stations, to make sure that the count appears to stand up to rigor. And thereafter they would compile a report and they would report the findings back to the Secretary General of either Caricom or the Commonwealth. And then that would make it available to both government opposition, the winner, and essentially the document is made public. And I think that that is useful in that it gives you a fairly good idea of what they thought in an unvarnished way, whether they thought the election was Credible or not, they don't really have the final word in terms of credibility that ultimately rests with people in the country. But it's useful to read their views and see that they think it's credible. And I think the best example, I hope I'm not going on too long of the effective use of observers would have been Guyana recently where there was an overt attempt to steal an election.
Election observers were on the ground and the way that these theft was taking place, it was very, very difficult for the observers to say differently because there was an amendment to statement of polls and observers were not necessarily in all of the hinterland areas where the statement of polls were collected. But you did have representatives from the parties that were able to capture that information and transmit it and be able to identify inaccuracies in relation to a spreadsheet that was being used to tabulate statement of polls and what the statement of polls originally said. Eventually, the observers were able to ask for push CARICOM to intervene. Your Prime Minister at the time, Keith Rowley, was one of the people who went to Georgetown. A recount was ordered as a result of them putting pressure on the Prime Minister.
And ultimately there was a recount which essentially declared the PPP Civic as the, as the winner and President Ali in finale, as the winner of the election and not President Granger. As was apparent in the initial. That's about the sum of it. And they said, I am, I like observers. I think they're a good thing. I don't think that they're a bad thing. But I also don't overstate the extent to which they can impact on an election, especially in a countryside of Trinidad and Tobago.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: You see, the thing about it, Ezra, my texters are telling me, thank you very much for asking that excellent question. Because they never understood the importance or significance of the election observers, first and foremost, how many of them are going to be on the ground? We have caricom.
Do you have to have a certain degree of qualification to be selected to become an election observer? You have just explained the rhetoric in terms of what has to be done. They come, they question people, they sniff around a little bit, they get a general consensus as to what is happening election wise, and they come and they deal with, with the matters. So what I'm saying to you this morning is outside of that, how much of a significant impact do they have on elections on a whole? For example, they come in and they find out that.
Or they recognize the ink, as you mentioned, is not durable or they didn't like the kind of campaigning that they're hearing is smeared with a lot of mud slinging and all that kind of thing.
Accusations, defamatory, information being spewed against each other, defaming one's character. How does an election observer step in at that point? Do they have a say? Can they stop the elections? Is there a recommendation to some committee that says, hey, hey, hey, based on our observations, this is not a fair election.
We don't like what we're seeing on the ground. How can it be addressed? And just before you answer that, I give you a minute to think. We take our next commercial break very quickly and then we'll continue with our discussion.
All right. Good morning and welcome back. Welcome back. So we was asking the question, just before we take that one quick commercial there on the issue relating to the observers. You mentioned about the Electoral Inc. You mentioned about the process of listening to my show, interviewing persons understanding what is happening on the ground with the election campaign in the instance where they observe a flawed ink.
Now, this is their observation beforehand. Of course, those things can be fixed before the election. Mudslinging, defamatory information being spewed against each other on various platforms, resulting in pre action protocol letters being administered. They didn't like the way how one returning officer or presiding officer dealt with the earlier voters, with the special voters at the polls. What can be done? Can they stop a general election from. From going forward?
[00:12:23] Speaker C: Right. And I mean in. The simple answer is no.
Elections in Trinidad and Tobago are run by the Electoral and Boundaries Commission. The Electoral and Boundaries Commission is a constitutionally sanctioned body that is set up by the Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago to regulate elections. And while the government does have significant influence, ultimately it's not the government's call to run those elections. The money is provided by government and the idea is that the Electoral and Boundaries Commission functions independently. If there's a concern regarding the quality of ink that the Electoral and Boundaries Commission has ordered and the observers raise that with sufficient time, it's entirely possible that there can be an alternative order that has procured. But if there's no time and there's questions arise, ultimately this becomes part of the report that says that this is something that happened. But no, they don't have any power to stop. They can, for example, use moral suasion and try to persuade the chairman of the EBC to make those decisions. But there's never really been an example in history of Caribbean elections, as far as I know, where things like Electoral Inc. Have been that problematic. Anyhow, I think in one or two elections in the past in Trinidad, people have raised concerns about the fact that you can get it off. But the idea that that has caused a flawed election is something which is a bit fanciful as far as the other things they discuss on the platform or whatnot. Look, every single report that I've read for Commonwealth, they have raised concern about the tone and the tenure of Caribbean elections because Caribbean elections are robust. So people get cussed, it happens. And there are a number of people who don't believe that it should be that way. I'm not necessarily one of those people because my thing is that you're going to go in the kitchen if you can't take the heat, you still heat kitchen and that is it. But certainly many of the observer reports have raised concern about the tone. The church often complains about the nasty on the campaign. The women's groups complain about the fact that women don't have a fair chance and that the characters are maligned. But ultimately that is part of the report that comes after there's nothing that you can do to stop an election. What I think is interesting is to look at the ways in which elections are actually influenced in Caribbean elections in Trinidad and Tobago. I think one of the major challenges has been this whole question of voter padding and the extent to which people are shifted into the marginals, either covertly or overtly to determine the outcome of an election. And the fact is that your population is large, it is always mobile.
There is ample opportunity in the marginal constituencies for people who are, for example, going to university to register in that area or alternatively who have a job in Port of Spain that may live elsewhere to register in that area. And I think that that is the kind of thing which can impact on an election and indeed in the past is argued have impacted on elections because voter pattern has been a controversial issue. Fundamentally, I'm not sure what an election observer can do to prevent voter pattern from taking place because ultimately it's the EBC that has to be in a position to say that these people who claim to live in the marshals actually do live there. And you know, if you can't verify seriously within the week or so or the month or so before an election, those verifications have to take place a long time in advance. And I would think that that's the kind of thing that an observer can say, advise, look going forward, you need to have a more robust process of management of the electoral register. And that has also been a report from time to time. But again, that's not Anything that can stop an election. And to me, that is the one way that you can influence the outcome. There are not many elections that get stolen in the Caribbean the same. Not many, to the best of my knowledge, not a lot. And the two more vulgar attempts you.
[00:16:31] Speaker B: Ever had, elections stolen, you say not a lot. That will indicate that some elections.
[00:16:35] Speaker C: Yeah, but that's what I'm saying to you, that the two vulgar attempts would have been both. In Guyana, where There was a 1970s election that the PNC was alleged to have won using the overseas votes that were questionable, that election was thrown into contention, but nonetheless, the winner was declared. I don't believe there were observers involved in that one. And then the more recent one in Guyana, where that has taken place. But I mean, if you look at, for example, St. Kitts and Nevis, which was one I had serious concern about, where the government brought in. They flew in about 2,000 voters. I think it was the number that was given. And the election outcome in many of the constituencies was like a handful of people. 1224, Saint Kitts and Nevis is only 40,000 people. The constituencies are small, and in many instances the margins were quite small. But that had an observer mission from the Commonwealth that said it was robust. Even though the Prime Minister dissolved Parliament, tried to fiddle the boundaries, he didn't succeed in that regard. Even though he brought in 2,000 voters, and even though the, you know, the process was questionable in many instances because of the use of something called a domus cell, which is a complex thing, by the end of it, the election observers said that the election was well handled. Of course, the government lost, which helped significantly, but, you know, it almost won. Which is the thing that I say that sometimes I wonder whether the election observers are as much as they're cracked up to be.
[00:18:09] Speaker B: The thing about it is that when you look at what the election observers do, and based on what you're saying, one tends to the opposition in any country, they're always asking, bring in election observers. But then you're getting a sense that they don't have much authority.
It's all based on their findings leading up to the elections and during the election process, the election day itself. But if they find any anomalies in there, they can only appeal to the EBCs on basis of ethics and morals.
There's nothing hard and fast. So who are paying these election observers? Is it us, the taxpayers? Because we have to house them. They're coming in.
So we are spending money for a body of people to observe us. Our process to Interview us and stuff, but don't really have any authority. If they do find something or unearth something that can be tangible, that they can actually say, hey, hey, hey, hey, or they pull the brakes.
[00:19:14] Speaker C: No, I could be wrong. But to the best of my knowledge, the. Well, certainly the Commonwealth observers are not paid by the country in question, the CARICOM ones, to the best of my knowledge, of finding, the arrangement is simple. So it is done that we come to the government of Trinidad and Tobago and ask them to pay for anything.
There are often cases in which observers are treated. For example, they'd be taken to dinner and whatnot, but you need to be very, very careful with that. And observers are always told, you know, you don't really accept gifts from people. You know, there's a limit in terms of the hospitality that you can accept and things of that nature.
[00:19:48] Speaker B: Now, Peter, we trying to be. We trying to be in a sense of neutrality and unbiased, right? So who is picking you up at the airport? And whoever you are sitting in that car with, they can be talking and swaying you in one way or the next. All these are concerns that come up. Is it a big maxi and everybody, one driver? Are we police escorted? Well, as I said, you know, there was a conversation I had earlier this week and people had concerns about presiding officers or returning officers campaigning. And I say to them, based on ethics and morals, you should not be publicly aligned to a party.
You should not. The perception must be you maintain neutrality and unbiasedness on that day. You just do the job. But does it mean that the CEO or chairman of the EBC or its affiliates and employees, they don't have a political preference? They do. They do have a political preference and they are also eligible to vote. So they can vote either way. But on the day itself, we don't want to see. I don't want to see you campaigning for the PNM or the unc, and then you come in and handle my ballot. I will feel that you, you know, it's a sense. It's that feeling. So with the election observers coming into Trinidad and Tobago to observe this election is welcomed by all political luminaries Right now. All parties are welcoming it. But how can we be certain that whatever information they're going to get during their transition in the country from one place to the next, the questions they're going to ask, to whom they're going to ask these questions, who's going to accompany them? Do we. Do we need to be concerned about these things? Mr. Wickham?
[00:21:28] Speaker C: I would say no. I mean, you can read their reports. The reports are fully transparent. And when you read the reports, you know, it becomes clear that they've met everyone that they meet, every group that they will meet, they will report on. Right. And as I said, these are people who don't have any skin in the game. They're very professional. And as far as facilitation in a place like Trinidad and Tobago, to be honest, if government doesn't get involved in terms of security and transportation, the observers are not going to get anything done because the traffic is crazy. I think that everyone who knows Trinidad and Tobago would agree with that. It's one of the worst traffic conditions in the Caribbean. If government does not get involved in terms of providing police escorts and whatnot for those people, they're not going to get anything done. So they will be involved in that regard. As to who is paying the max fees and whatnot that they go around with, as I said, I'm really not sure, but my understanding is certainly as far as the Commonwealth is concerned, they pay for their own stuff locally and the observers are paid. They're paid relatively well. And again, that comes out of the Commonwealth purse.
So I would say that it's not a bad thing to have it. And as far as influence is concerned, yeah, I mean, the opposition would try to influence the observers, the government would try to influence the observers, the NGOs would try to influence the observers, the candidates would try. It is a responsibility of every party, the press, everyone should try to be as influential as possible in terms of lobbying their own position to the observers and raising concerns that they have. Some of the concerns will be nonsense, some of the concerns will be important and it will be all part of the Commonwealth of the observer report, which helps to shape and to mold your elections going forward. But I just want to stress that probably the best possible level of guarantee that the people of Trinidad and Tobago have for this election is the involvement of the average person in the process and the level of transparency that is normally provided. So if you see something odd, you say something. And I think that that's going to be more powerful than any single observer in terms of raising questions. And when you've had the election since independence and before, and you've not really had any significant problems, I mean, you did have challenges that were created by the even split, but that was resolved ultimately. Not to my liking, certainly, but it was resolved. And I would say that there have not been any real significant issues raised subsequently that really impact on election. Look at a Country like Jamaica, for example. Jamaica has had huge problems with their lists and the management of the lists and the garrison constituencies and whatnot. And even then, they've been able to overcome. One of the big ticket items now is election finance reform, feeling that the two parties spend too much money and there should be regulations or whatnot. And the observers are always speaking about this because this is something that both parties will raise. The opposition especially is concerned. Well, I don't think this opposition is concerned because clearly they have so many. But the opposition are normally concerned about the level of spending.
But again, it's hard to respond to that in any constructive way, because everyone has ideas about what could work as far as finance is concerned. But no one has yet been able to come up with a solution that both sides can agree on. So that's one of the areas that they have often spoken to in reports. But I think that they're fishing in the dark where that's concerned. And as I said, the assurance to me comes from the fact that every man or woman out there knows that what they're doing and there's transparency. They go to the voting booth, and then. The final thing I want to say is in relation to this whole idea of independence. And I know that one of the reasons that Trinidad and Tobago is not part of the CCJ is because there's a feeling that there's a level of familiarity in terms of judges and that you have a better chance going to white people who have no skin in the game and getting a judgment from there. That's something that I fundamentally disagree with, because I do believe that you can know someone personally, you can have a personal relationship with them, and you can still offer an objective opinion. You know, we had a situation in Barbados many years ago where a gentleman left the office of Attorney General and became Chief justice within months. I personally found it was crass and vulgar. I didn't like it. But in final analysis, the judgments that were offered by that individual were fair, they were unbiased, there was no amount of recusals. And I think that it essentially suggests that the type of person that you are should not necessarily impact on the judgment that you give. If you know something is right, it is right. And look at what happens in the United States. You have judges that are Democrats and Republicans, and they offer justice one way or the other. This lady Barrett, who was recently sent up by Trump, who was an open Republican, she's now a Supreme Court justice, and she has offered opinions that have not favored the Trump administration. I believe Caribbean People have to have confidence in themselves to be able to do things as well. I don't believe that because I'm pnm, that everything I said is PNM in claim. It's possible that I can be PNM and say that right is right. You know, so. Or unc, let's say right is right.
[00:26:39] Speaker B: Well, we are being told that, you know, who causing the problem in the country. And we hear in those talks. Let me take one call before we wrap. Hello. Good morning.
[00:26:46] Speaker A: Good morning, David.
[00:26:48] Speaker B: Good morning.
[00:26:48] Speaker A: And good morning, Dr. Wickham. Doctor. The year was.
[00:26:53] Speaker B: No, not a doctor.
[00:26:56] Speaker A: Mr. Wickham.
[00:26:57] Speaker C: The.
[00:26:58] Speaker A: The year was 1986. You may have been in kindergarten. David's mother and father may not have been.
[00:27:08] Speaker C: I remember it well. 24, 26. What was it? Yeah.
[00:27:15] Speaker A: We had a major election in Trinidad in 1986, and it's the first time that Trinidad had observers. So there was this observer, particular observer, who wore color. So that will give you an idea as to what. Where he came from. And he was speaking about the constituency of Batari, which was held by Kamal. And he was saying that he found this, he found this, he found that. And when you see that, that is when the government of the day is ready to steal the election.
On the morning after the election, when the NAR wiped the floor 33 with the PNM, he appeared on TV with Agonist, saying that the elections in Trinidad and Tobago have always been free and fair. They have always been, and it is a free and fair election. Now, the problem I have with him then is that he was saying things prior to the election for which he had no evidence. And I am hoping that when observers come to a place, they would try and hold their tongue and keep their observations to themselves until there's a time of assessment to understand exactly what is taking place. I would only wrap by saying that I believe observers is a good thing. I wish every time we have elections, we have observers because it will also help assist us in keeping our snake free. Thank you.
[00:28:33] Speaker B: All right.
[00:28:34] Speaker C: What was he. What was he saying about Barataria San Juan, though? What was the concern?
[00:28:38] Speaker B: I can't remember. 100. He said so many different things, but nevertheless, let's take in this one.
[00:28:44] Speaker D: Good morning.
I noticed that a certain political party has occupied the entire circumference of a roundabout up in the east.
[00:28:53] Speaker B: All right. I don't understand why is that? For the time being, but as we wrap this morning, I want to say. Thank you very much. Let me take this final call. Good morning.
[00:29:01] Speaker A: Good Morning, Davey.
[00:29:02] Speaker B: Good morning.
[00:29:03] Speaker D: Good morning.
What I want to say is if you look at CARICOM observers, when they do come here, or observers on a hold, they usually tend to give a report. And the reports you want to come out from Guyana, it's available online, where people could go and speak in terms of what was said. When a builder come in your country, they usually hold a pet conference in terms of just telling Eric, they usually hold a press conference and tell you how they have been invited and what they will be doing and their scope of work. So I expect when they come here on the 21st, they will be doing that. In terms of that election in Guyana with the whole issue of chicom and dead people appearing on the ballot paper that create the whole conundrum. I think by and large they do have some level of powers because you had influence in terms of the international community saying, yeah, what? We have a winner. We have determined that the PPPC have been the winner. And in terms of. We've seen the administration acquiescing to that reluctantly. So I just want to point out that. So, yes, they do have some influence power in terms of other countries, in terms of what they dictate, in terms of what they see in terms of election, what's fair.
All right, David, thank you for giving me a picture.
[00:30:23] Speaker B: All right, thanks very much.
And with that being said, I thank you very much, Mr. Peter Wickham, for sharing insights as to how the elections observers are dealt with in, in the respective countries that they go in. One final thought, though. If for some reason they do find questionable things within the election and the election, but they can't stop it, so the election goes ahead and somebody is declared winner, but their report signifies or shows where they have reason to believe that it was a stolen election, a rigged election, what happens thereafter, especially if the opposition is claiming such, and they have findings that could suggest along those lines what takes place thereafter.
[00:31:11] Speaker C: I mean, the quick reference would be St. Kitts, where electoral reform is pursued. There was an election where concerns were raised, the government won it notwithstanding, and there was a vigorous process of electoral reform that was pursued afterwards. And I would say that it came to a reasonable conclusion. So going forward. Yeah, that's really the key, that going forward, the reports need to be digested. And, you know, it's a pity if you have subsequent elections that are conducted with the same challenges and the same issues that have been raised year after year. It does speak to the fact that there's something odd going on.
[00:31:46] Speaker B: All right, so, Peter, I want to thank you very much for chatting with me this morning. I do look forward to talking to you in the not too distant future. It's really good to have you again. So have yourself a safe one. Much advice. Bye bye.
[00:31:59] Speaker A: The best Insight Instant Feedback Accountability the all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.
