Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5. We are getting set to chat with Mr. Jai Lidad Harsingh. Did I pronounce it correct?
[00:00:15] Speaker B: Yes, Jai Lilad Har Singh.
[00:00:17] Speaker A: Lilad Har Singh, the coordinator of Confederation of Business Chambers. And it has to do with a story coming out of page eight of our Guardian for the people. This morning trade unions joined forces with Business Chamber to bid for refinery. Let's talk a little bit and welcome to Freedom 106.5 FM. Sir.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Good morning, sir. And good morning to Trinidad and Tobago.
[00:00:38] Speaker A: All right, good to have you on board. Let's talk a little bit about the bidding process. What is this bid? Explain this to our listening audience, please.
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Okay.
Maybe bid is not the word to use. Now what I want to do is give our background before we get into the whole issue of bid. If you don't mind, of course.
[00:00:54] Speaker A: I want you to go ahead.
[00:00:56] Speaker B: Right.
As you have noticed in the campaign trade. All seasoned journalists like yourself have noticed that the OWTU was on the United National Congress platform, part of the coalition of interests along with the PSA and other trade unions.
What I want to say to the country is that there were certain organizations that was marginalized and isolated by the last government.
One of them was the trade union movement. The other one was the Confederation of Regional Business Chambers. Let me make that absolutely clear.
Right. We were fighting for the cause of the small businesses and the medium sized businesses spread throughout Transnebago.
The name of our organization is a Confederation of regional business chambers. 14 Business organizations under one umbrella where we advocate for each other's issues and speak with one voice. Although each business association is independent as well.
Now what has been happening is that the 20th of April, the results spoke for themselves and I am aware.
Again, this is a discussion we saw on the platform where the union, the owt, you specifically the president, General Anson Roger called for the reopening of the refinery. This is a position taken by the Confederation of Chambers and one of our members, Mrs. Daphne Bartlett, President of the San Fernando Business association has been advocating for the reopening of the refinery to bring back economic prosperity. Now I get into your question, David, but let me say one thing. For the last nine and a half years our country has been hit by a train wreck of failed policies on the part of the government, including the closing of the refinery, including that impacted our foreign exchange supply, which they didn't seem to understand before they close the refinery. And secondly, the aspect of bitumen to fix Our roads. That is why our infrastructure is crumbling. Besides the last ministry of actually doing no work, you think about it is I look at the roads we drive on, look at its state. So it's imperative we start back that refinery is imperative. We enhance our export capability within the energy sector. That doesn't say that we don't deal with other sectors like agriculture, enhanced manufacturing, services and technology and may I add tourism. Excuse me David, but what is important is that we need to kick start the economy and we need to go fast. Now the OWT you I assuming have been having back channel conversations with the government.
They have a plan. They have told us they have a plan, a startup plan. They have an operational plan.
They just need some assistance for training and some strategic planning.
We are also working with them to access global markets where energy could be could be exported to. They are also working on raising capital on the international markets for the startup of the refinery and continued unsustained operations. I want to make it clear the whole refinery cannot start at once. There are many inherent risks involved, Davy. So what is important is that it starts one plant at a time. And the talks we had on Wednesday is a framework how we could start collaborating the Chamber, the Confederation of Regional Chambers, Jatam Natuk, the owtu, how we could work together. So it is our first meeting. We hope to have another one sometime in early June where we could ratify roles and responsibilities and could lead to MOU and then could lead to a project plan where we will be taking things in steps with specific timelines. This if it works, I hope by almighty God it does, will bring back prosperity to the country and we need a new beginning. David, thank you, thank you very much.
[00:04:51] Speaker A: For that comprehensive detail insight as to what is happening and what took place with Petrotrend and the plans for future on it. Now the thing about it is when you look at seven years after the shutdown of Petrotrend there is a renewed push to restart the operations. And of course with this collaboration between you guys, the Confederation of Regional Business Chambers and several other trade unions including the oil field workers trade union. Now we have been told time and time again, first of all, let me ask you a question.
Did the previous administration in closing the refinery.
[00:05:26] Speaker B: Okay, I'm giving you my personal opinion.
[00:05:28] Speaker A: Your personal opinion.
[00:05:29] Speaker B: Is that all right?
[00:05:30] Speaker A: Of course, I welcome that sir. You are a learned individual in this field. So tell me.
[00:05:36] Speaker B: They feel too much.
The government made a very bad policy decision to close down Petrotrend. While it is that there were talks and narratives that the refinery need to be rationalized.
If there was an issue of diversifying the refinery or selling off part of the refinery to other international bidders, that would have been fine. But the comprehensive closed of the refinery is an error. Should have continued as a going concern because let me say something Davy and people of translation don't know when the central bank needs foreign exchange. In the past they would ask Petrochin to send some a lot of the US to them and they will pay them the equivalent of of course petrochemical need to keep a certain US equivalent for continued international markets and purchase of petroleum and other international equipment from international markets. But that is where the foreign exchange went to the central bank and then the central bank disseminated and distributed their effects to all the other commercial banks. So you want to travel to the US Navy and you need certain amount of US dollars, they get it without a problem. The closing of the refinery exacerbated the shortage of foreign exchange.
Now that was a huge mistake and also destroy the earnings of our country. The false narrative that Petrochin was making losses is not true. When you redistinguish people like Anthony Paul and Mr. Lashley and others who commented that it should not be closed down, it goes contrary to that cruel and political decision taken by the last government.
[00:07:11] Speaker A: Oh no, happy. Because it have a lot of people.
It have a lot of people. All right. Believe that the.
That Petro Trin was bleeding Trinidad and Tobago and that Petro Trin was not earning money.
That was what was being said. That was the consensus being said. And coming from you this morning with some such clarity on the issue, I you remember bwia?
[00:07:41] Speaker B: I remember BWA very well.
[00:07:43] Speaker A: You remember this, this former Prime Minister, the late Patrick Mervyn Augustus Manning.
You remember when BWIA had to be bailed out twice in one year because they could not make their financial obligations?
[00:07:57] Speaker B: That is true. Right, go ahead.
[00:08:01] Speaker A: So went Petrotrin and I wanted to make this clear with Petro Trin. They were not functioning at a loss.
[00:08:08] Speaker B: They were not functioning at a loss. They were continually making operating profits and.
[00:08:13] Speaker A: I thank you for that. I thank you for that. I wanted to get that clear now in the former Prime Minister and former Energy Minister Stewart Young. He has warned that the country could face bond defaults, lawsuits and sovereign credit downgrade due to what he described as serious oversight by the UNC government in their recent ministerial assignments. He said in a statement on Thursday. He raised the alarm that over the May 13, 2025 gazette note assigning responsibilities to cabinet Ministers saying it failed to acknowledge three key state agency companies. Trinidad Petroleum Heritage, which is TPHL Heritage Petroleum and Paria Fuel Trading Company. Now with this refinery being open. Right.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: Well proposed to be open.
[00:09:04] Speaker A: Proposed, proposed. He explained that the following restructuring of PetroTrend the three companies were formed to assume responsibility for significant financial obligations including refinancing of some US850 million bond that was due in August 2019 and separate US750 million bond. Now having that information out in the public domain. Let's back it up a little bit. We have the refinery has been closed for a number of years now.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: About seven or eight years.
[00:09:36] Speaker A: Seven or eight years in 2018, thereabouts. So the thing about it is this, right With a vehicle that is running your motor car, you leave the country and you bus out for a little while and you come back and your motor car.
Oh, oh let me back it up a little bit. I usually would see people like to buy. You ever buy a second hand car?
[00:09:56] Speaker B: Yes, of course.
[00:09:57] Speaker A: Right. They said the seller tried to tell you well this car is hardly driving. It always park up. You know we don't really use this car. There's a goodbye. I mean the body looks nice it clean but it pack up, it park up. We'd hardly drive it.
But you see this one here, you might like this one but we're driving this every day, every day on the road. People tend to think it beat out it on the road right through mileage but this one park up, there's a better buy.
But we know when you buy that car that parked up and you start to get some licks you start a function engine monk burst, rubber burst disc gone because they're just dormant and it parked up. So all these things that looking new and properly well functioning when you start to operate it because it has not been operating for so long. Dry rot during COVID people's shoes dry rot because it wasn't going nowhere. Their shoes.
What sort of. How to put it.
[00:10:52] Speaker B: You're concerned about the integrity, the integrity.
[00:10:54] Speaker A: Of the unsustainability of petro train current, the current machinery there now right.
[00:10:59] Speaker B: And I see where this is going.
I am aware that the equipment are functional because there have been energy, energy service companies that have been hired by.
By Trinidad Petroleum I shouldn't call it. They have been hired to ensure that the integrity of the equipment is kept intact and there are people who are in petrol trend inspecting looking, testing equipment at this particular point in time. So it's not that you just close a refinery and Everything is just left all alone. They are checking the integrity of the pipelines, they are checking the integrity of the equipment. They are making sure that everything is kept intact for a safety issue.
If you leave that equipment and nobody's looking at it, a colossal accident could take place just like that. Look at how the, the heat that we are experiencing right now under the weather that could cause a fire if that was left unattended. So I know for a fact that there are personnel in the refinery checking on the equipment very regularly. You just can't sell. Well, those that propose to sell it was going to sell it with bad and faulty equipment. They want to ensure that the equipment is still somewhat functional. There is going to be some change out of equipment. I am not an engineer, Davy, but I anticipate that is going to happen. And there is something I want to make clear in your narrative. This whole thing about the $850 billion bond and everything.
The government at the time could have refinanced it, not even refinance it, restructured it as well.
That 850 bond came from the failed gas to liquids project. That was done by Patrick Manning and Malcolm Jones. They were the ones that put the whole refinery into a deep sovereign debt. And that is what caused this whole thing to happen. But the refinery could have paid it and paid off it once we had restructured that particular bond on softer terms. And that could have been done a long time ago. The gas, the liquid was done and now it was solar scrap metal. Really was a colossal failure. One of the worst colossal failures of this country.
[00:13:04] Speaker A: Now there was talks amid the fact that when they closed it down, we needed to push out something like 150,000 barrels and all of that we were barely able to push out 50,000, 60,000 barrels. And that based on, you know, talks on the ground. It was supposed to be a daily, a daily effort by Petrotrend to sustain it. There was also talks afoot that you waged bills in. Petrotrend was astronomically high and of course senior executives, they were being paid best international standards and practices and so forth. However, the bill remained high and they blamed workers for it.
[00:13:39] Speaker B: I wouldn't go down the narrative of blaming workers.
Every company have their processes and systems. The systems is a living breathing thing that's like obviously the constitution is our live in breathing thing. It has to always be align, align, change. It has to be always reviewed in order to ensure that productivity is seamless.
The thing about it is that there is a narrative going out there to blame the Union.
The wages, if there is an expense, if there's 100% salaries and wages may account for just about 15 to 17% of all those expenses. You have plant and equipment, you have transportation costs.
I don't know if people know that. But we are also a large importer of crude. Many times petrochemical was refined. We refine the oil and we sell it back to the respective country at a cost. And that's how we make our profits. Like heavy Sumatran oil, heavy oil from Malaysia. Oil comes from all over the world to our refinery to be processed.
So I just want to make it clear that if it is, that the management would have been able to work a little better with the union and were able to convince the union that look, we need to work together. We want to change the culture, we want to change the tone of how we address each other and manage the problems that things would have been much different.
Now Petrochin was bought out by the state and they had managers appointed by the state to run the refinery.
But in my opinion they could have bought in a couple of investors. But I am of a firm belief, and this is my opinion, my personal opinion, that the refinery belongs to the people of Trinidad and Tobago. You could have had investors, they could have do a lot of technology transfers, help us access other international markets and work towards profitability. Anybody who invests, what a rate of return on investment. Nothing is wrong with that. But all in all, the refinery is a state asset for the people of Trinidad and Tobago. We live in prosperity owing to the operations and efficiency as best as we can of that asset. Closing that asset put the people of transaming into dire poverty. And I make no bones about that.
[00:15:56] Speaker A: Wow, those are some startling revelations.
What do you anticipate will be the cost factors involved to restart Petrotrend and get it back up to where it's going now?
[00:16:06] Speaker B: Okay. I have heard from other learned commentators that it will take at least US$1 billion to start a refinery. What is absolutely critical, two things, the supply of oil to refine and to the markets to sell that oil to.
Once that has also been established enough to be part of the plan, we will call for the owt. You along with other parties. Then I could see we are on our way. But I don't want to comment on it now because that has not yet been discussed.
[00:16:35] Speaker A: Because I was about to ask you, have you all target markets in terms of having oil imported again to this country for refining and then re export it to these individuals and sell back? Because currently we export in oil.
[00:16:48] Speaker B: Currently we export in oil and we are also importing oil.
[00:16:52] Speaker A: By the way, when we import it, we import in the refined product.
[00:16:57] Speaker B: Refined product.
[00:16:57] Speaker A: Right. From Jamaica and other. Right.
Imagine that from Jamaica, who does not have natural reserves.
[00:17:05] Speaker B: Well, maybe this is what I'm coming to. We are supposed to be the energy hub of the Caribbean. Yes, I acknowledge that there are significant resources in Guyana and Suriname, but we are the energy hub. We are one of the first countries to discover oil and commercially produce oil 120 years ago. We, we have been operating in the oil industry before Venezuela, before many countries in the Middle East. So then, so then Tobago.
[00:17:30] Speaker A: So then we have to ask ourselves, what was the former Prime Minister thinking when what conversations, what feasibility studies was undertaken by the former Prime Minister Dr. Keith Rowley, to make such a drastic decision that this refinery is bleeding the economy? When this refinery was paying its bills, there was the same consensus with tstt. TSTT was paying its bills. However, they blame workers. They say the negotiations, not the negotiations, the wage bills high. The unions within the respective bargaining timeframe want to sit on the table, have these bargaining discussions and so forth. We can't sustain it no more. And that's the consensus. That's the general consensus. The public walked away with Petro train bleeding us.
[00:18:11] Speaker B: Blaming the workers is a cop out. It is a failure of management to effectively hold the organization together. But the decision to close petrochrin is strictly political.
And that's all I prepared to see.
[00:18:25] Speaker A: I mean, we could go, we could go deeper.
[00:18:27] Speaker B: You could laugh and we could go deeper.
[00:18:28] Speaker A: We could go deeper.
Yeah, we could. But let's rest it a little bit. I mean, the previous PNM government had announced about the. I think it's the, the Ondo, right, the Owando as a preferred bidder for the refinery. However, Prime Minister Kamala Pasabi says has since made it clear that her government will not go ahead with that company and that they will not honor any deal signed by the pnm. Now, how could that negatively affect us if deals were signed by the previous administration to have these companies come in and deal with the refinery?
[00:19:03] Speaker B: I cannot see it negatively impacting us because first of all, you are taking a decision about a major state assets on the eve of an election. That is improper, totally improper. Just as how Trinity Mall was sold on the eve of an election. They could have waited till after the election. There are certain ways a government need to behave when an election is called. That is again something that in terms of good governance needs to be looked at and they have an ag. They have, they have lawyers within the government and they could hire lawyers that could be looked at. I don't want to digress from it, but where I want to go with this is that for the last nine years there has been no new foreign investment in Trinidad and Tobago. Trinity is not part of any global value chains that could add value to our economy.
This is where I think the new government needs to, needs to look at on how to bring in investment. We have Mr. Satya Kamaraj and Dr. Neil go sign as the Minister of Trade, Investment and Tourism. So you have to find a way to make the environment, how can I say, more conducive to investment. Maybe a bottom line. As we say in business, capital goes where it is welcome. We need to welcome capital from around the world. We need to welcome investment from around the world and set the infrastructure properly so that they can be able to conduct business. And we have to address the ease of doing business as well. All of this was not done. So. So again I come back to see it will not affect Trinidad and Tobago because for the last nine years no new investment came into the country.
And we also need to level the playing field when it comes to business because there are certain businesses that have unfair advantages in certain sectors. That has to be addressed, it has to be levelled out and have to be made equal. And this whole issue with the multinational corporations in the energy sector. I'm not against multinational corporations, but what I'm against is that we need to seek the national interest regarding our energy sector first. How does it benefit the country, how does it benefit development and how does it benefit the people? That is what we need to look.
[00:21:07] Speaker A: At and that is something that I think I could, I can't disagree with you on. I mean it all boils back down to how we feel. And I mean I have sat in many energy conferences with the former Prime Minister, especially Hyatt. When they had these energy conference, we would have carried it live on Freedom 106.5 FM bringing the information to the. And you would have heard Dr. Rowley in the early stages when we talked about the refinery.
You know, it would be a mistake on this country and irresponsible of a government to attempt to refine, to restart something that has been dormant for so long.
The cost factors involved would be significant. And you know, he painted that grim picture stating that we don't have it, we can't afford it, you know.
[00:21:55] Speaker B: But David, that is a false narrative and that has been picture being paid to put into the minds of people that they have made the right decisions. There's a lot of false narratives out there. A lot of things that are out there that is absolutely untrue. It could be done.
[00:22:11] Speaker A: All right, with that being said, I want to thank you very much. Good morning again. Davy.
My question Is it possible that Petrochin refinery was shut down in order for this country to to almost solely rely on the Dragon Gas deal and to destroy citizen supply of the USD?
That's coming from a text there. That's coming from one of Davy.
[00:22:34] Speaker B: Let me make something clear to the country.
Exploration in this country have grinded. There was a lot of exploration done under the tenure of Kevin Ramnerang under Franklin Kahn and under Seorchong under Franklin county there was almost zero. Under Seochong there was some shallow water refining. But they were not attracting people to come in and bid.
There's a lot of processes that needs to be corrected in the bid rounds. That's the first thing I want to see. We need to attract other international players to come and check our waters.
15 years ago Davi and I want to make this clear to you to your audience.
Energy expert Anthony Paul told me and he pointed out a map in the Caribbean. He pointed offshore to Guyana and offshore to Suriname. There are large pools of oil out there. He pointed out to the east coast of Trinidad deep water and he said there's oil and gas out there. We just have to find it. Guyana found their oil through Exxon. Suriname is working with a consortium of international firms one being total of France. If they are able to explore a gas field north of Suriname waters. It is one of the largest gas fields in the Caribbean. Just like the Lauren Manatee. Okay. The thing about it is that how do we become the energy hub of the Caribbean? Guyana, Trinidad and Suriname. That is something that needs to be hammered and worked out. But let me say something. There is hydrocarbon resources on the east coast, the Porter northeast of Tobago and in other waters in Tobago that we have not yet exploited. Those are our waters, our territory. It is our hydrocarbon resources that we could exploit. Going after Dragon Gas deal was a colossal mistake. Especially when Mr. Maduro had us to go Barbados make a promise to the US that he will pay a free and fair elections which was not held. It was only a matter of time before the US start implementing sanctions.
[00:24:28] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:24:28] Speaker B: Also canceling the OFAC crisis.
[00:24:30] Speaker A: I have one question to ask you before we depart this morning. How would Petrochrin says Well, I shouldn't even ask you that. Question. Because it has to do with you securing deals with foreign countries to have oil come into this country.
[00:24:44] Speaker B: Supply and market.
[00:24:45] Speaker A: Supply and market.
[00:24:47] Speaker B: We have to have the oil, the source and the oil in order to put wood in the refinery and the markets export the refining products to.
[00:24:54] Speaker A: I often believe that you can't open a grocery if it was stock the shelves, you can't open the supermarket. So is it that you all are going to try to get these deals in place before attempts are made to restart or you're going to restart, prepare the refinery and then secure these deals very quickly please.
[00:25:08] Speaker B: All these trucks will be done simultaneously. We have to secure the deals. We have to work on the engineering aspect of starting the refinery and other things too and sourcing the hydrocarbons which is the oil to refine.
[00:25:19] Speaker A: And how long do you anticipate this will take?
Not, not, not the, not the securing of the deals but the actually the, the getting the refinery up. Are you estimating a year, two years from now? How long can should you guys be successful with getting government on board?
[00:25:34] Speaker B: It is very difficult to put a time frame but I believe listening to the unions and their narrative they are looking at us at a time frame of one year to a year and a half.
It's the best I could say at this time until we go in there and see exactly what is inside here.
[00:25:50] Speaker A: Well, I put in my application early with you Ajay. Once Olia get it. I'm looking for a job.
[00:25:55] Speaker B: No problem.
[00:25:56] Speaker A: I'm working on radio still balancing the actual balance.
[00:25:58] Speaker B: Yeah, we need good fellas like you.
[00:26:01] Speaker A: But I inside with you guys on the ground and I will bring back information, comprehensive first hand detail information as to how the refinery is working. As an employee, I am in there and we're going through the rhetoric with it man.
[00:26:13] Speaker B: When we doing the walkthrough Davy, I'll make sure and invite you to come.
[00:26:16] Speaker A: Listen, my producer just heard you so don't say something you can't keep her producer heard you and she's going to make it happen. She aggressive like that.
[00:26:23] Speaker B: That's all right. We will invite you to come and take a look along with your other colleagues. I have to be fair and open.
[00:26:27] Speaker A: To everybody and we appreciate that. Thank you very much Dai for chatting with us. Morning. We do appreciate as best as you could answer you were you as honest as you could have been and we appreciate that somebody was now asking me from which market that you were planning to get these deals. But we could talk about that in a future show. Thank you again so much for being with me this morning.
[00:26:43] Speaker B: You're welcome. And good morning to Trinidad and Tobago.
[00:26:46] Speaker A: Have a great one. Bye.
[00:26:47] Speaker B: Bye. Have a great one.
[00:26:48] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.
