Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, Instant feedback, Accountability the all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5 at this point in time, ladies and gentlemen, we do have a very special interview for you and we're discussing it. I think we discussed we had an initial discussion on this some time ago on UE's Legal Aid Clinic. And we welcome to our program at this point in time to discuss some of these matters with us. Let's welcome to our program.
I'm reading here from the titles sent in to us. This is the Caribbean team lead at Incarceration Network, Nations Network and Teaching Associate at the University of Nottingham. Let's welcome attorney Alexis McNally. Good morning.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: Hi, Good morning.
[00:00:59] Speaker A: Nice to have you with us. We also have Deputy Dean of Student Matters at the Faculty of Law of the University of the West Indies in St. Augustine. That's Dr. Timothy Alfonso. Alfonso.
[00:01:11] Speaker C: Hi. Morning, Mr. Morning, Mr. Bahavir.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: Nice to have you with us. And we have as well, lecturer in the Social Work Program in the Department of Behavioral Sciences at the University of The West Indies, St. Augustine, that's Dr. Camille Huggins. Good morning.
[00:01:28] Speaker D: Good morning. How are you?
[00:01:30] Speaker A: Good morning. Fine. Nice to have nice to have you all with us here this morning to discuss something that I'm sure can be of great benefit to a lot of the people who are listening in to us who may need services. It's UE's legal aid clinic. So let's begin by setting the groundwork and explaining to people who may have not heard, heard about it before, who are totally unfamiliar with what's going on.
Who wants to explain to us what is UE's legal aid clinic all about?
[00:02:01] Speaker C: Yes, Mr. Mahabi, I'll take a first stab at it. I first want to thank you very much for giving us a second opportunity to speak about it, because the first clinic on the 16th of November in El Dorado.
[00:02:11] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:02:12] Speaker C: And you allowed us to come here to advertise it. And the persons in the clinic said we had an amazing show, but they said because of this interview they knew about it and they were able to come.
[00:02:22] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:02:23] Speaker C: So that's why this was an integral part of our marketing campaign that we have to get onto your radio station.
Our second installment of the justice on the Move Legal Aid Clinic will be in Mayaru on Saturday 1 February, from 10am to 3pm and the BPT Resource center on Biomont Road in Mayaru, we will be bringing a team of volunteer lawyers and social workers.
And this time we will actually have our partner from the Incarceration Nations Network where We bring a holistic approach to legal services and psychosocial support to anyone who needs the assistance. It is free and we are able to provide it legal advice on any area of law. And if anyone is in need of social work, as we realized in our first clinic in El Dorado that there is a need for that kind of support, Dr. Huggins and her team will also be there to lend support to those individuals.
[00:03:25] Speaker A: Just on a note, if you're heading to Mayaro, just a bit of advice. I'm not too sure which constituency this was for then Komoto Manzanillo or if Mayaro properly.
I don't know if you've been in touch with him, but the MP does have an amazing network to get messages like these out and he's going to be a valuable. This is not about politicizing anything. It's about spreading the message and getting as many people who would need the services to come because that's the overall objective of an initiative like this and as many people as you can get. Getting to in touch with the MP would go a long way. It's not a time we have been.
[00:04:07] Speaker C: Looking, we have been working with his office, Mr. Neil Ramdath, who is the manager of Mr. Bar's office. And they, you're correct, they have an amazing network and they've been willing to promote all our motivator, our marketing material. So they've used their network and they're also lending support with food and water for our initiative. So they've been having an invaluable partner in this project.
[00:04:30] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Before we move forward, let's, let's look back. Tell us about this first one in El Dorado. I know that after making the appeal for people to come in and take advantage or avail themselves, people would have done so. Tell us about the response, tell us about some of the issues. Without identifying obviously the people, some of the issues that were brought to your attention, to the group's attention.
[00:04:53] Speaker C: I'd love to hand over to Dr. Huggins just to say on the legal side, we were expecting about maybe 20 or 30 people. We got over, I think over 70, 75 people and we were working nonstop with the persons. And because of the nature of the work, some of the attorneys, all of whom acted for free, they were, they were willing to take on the work even afterwards to give them follow up support. And Dr. Huggins can speak a little bit about the social work aspect of it.
[00:05:19] Speaker D: Yeah, I was very surprised as well. I was surprised. I wasn't surprised about the turnout. Right. So we had about 11 lawyer students as well as we had the Hugh Wooding Law School was there. The law association was also partnering with us. Day and I had two social workers on the ground. We had about 12 people come to us. I was surprised, you know, because it was the cycle. They came for legal matters, but the psychosocial aspects they wanted help with. So we spent about like a good 45 minutes per climb, basically to talk about, you know, their issues. They had issues regarding custody of their children and the psychosocial stress that they've had after that. They've talked about elder care and elder abuse issues as well and, you know, really have sitting time with them. We had one family that came and talked about their child having some drug use issues and, you know, really seeing what services were out there. So we were glad to be there to talk about all the social welfare issues and, you know, basically services that are available to them and to really help them follow up. So I know we had to follow up with two clients and I was able to do that afterwards.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: Tell us about. I know that aside and apart from the work at the clinic, you'd have experience in the wider society.
And I think I'd asked this question initially, but after the first clinic, it might be. It might be good to go over it again, some of these services that people can come and get when it. Because when you speak of social service as a broad topic, it can cover so many different things that people may not necessarily know. Well, I have this problem. Does my. Does my problem qualify for me to access some assistance under social services?
[00:06:59] Speaker D: Tell us what services are available. I mean, you know, I have to say, you know, Trinidad and Tobago has a lot of social welfare services available to them. The Ministry of Social Development is always available to do counseling, to follow up with housing, food card, to get you access to getting your birth papers. They also have some resources for, if you have DV issues, domestic, domestic violence issues, to give you referral through 800SAVE. We also have connections with witness protection unit and so forth. So we help in all these different areas. And also for elder care, which has, you know, we haven't done a lot of services regarding helping the elderly, but I think we are definitely giving them more things to think about and how to basically protect themselves.
[00:07:49] Speaker A: I can tell you from my end, I. I mean, I speak to a number of people about all kinds of things.
The program, we do have an element that seeks to make the world around us a better place by assisting people however we can in various instances. And I've spoken to a number of people, a number of elderly people who find themselves in situations that are so untenable. And it's only when you speak to people, you realize what they're going through because from the outside you can't tell it's unless people open up to you. And many instances people just want somebody to listen to them and probably suggest where they can go to get help.
And that's an important element of it because I don't think as a nation we have fully come to terms with what constitutes elder abuse.
There are things that we've seen growing up and we think it's normal that that's how you, you behave, that's how you, you know, you act and you operate. And when you delve a little bit deeper, you realize, well, no, that's, that's not what should happen. And elder abuse in this country is, I don't want to say it's rampant, but it's prevalent enough to be concerning.
And this, I mean, we're lucky to.
[00:09:10] Speaker D: Have a lot of elders in this country. We have over 100,000. It's, it's growing as you baby boomers get older as well as generation X. So we have about 20 to 30% are elderly and it's graying pretty fast. And services, you know, issues that they have experiencing is sibling issues over property. You know, there was no will owned property. So now you have two remaining siblings. These people have no children. So basically it's up to the siblings and, and the fights that they're having. We've had, you know, basically taking Granny's, you know, you know, her pension check because, you know, they believe, you know, people really believe if you're old, you don't need your money anymore. I've heard that a couple of times as well. And so people take your pension checks to pay rent to take care of their issues. And you're just so happened to be a byproduct living in the same home. Another thing is loneliness. Elder adults go through a lot of loneliness even eating by themselves. Somehow they're no longer at the dinner table. They're told to get their food in their room because maybe they have issues ambulating to the dinner table. Loneliness is a big deal. So when you don't, when you eat by yourself, you don't eat a lot. So they lose weight pretty quickly. I've seen one elder who slept with her granddaughter and apparently the granddaughter kind of beat her up at night because she flinged her hand over on the granddaughter and she would come to Sometimes with bruises. So there are many manifestations of elder abuse and we really have not been able to address it because we are all getting older as well and we don't even want to admit our own frailties. So therefore, how can we see it in others?
[00:10:52] Speaker A: That issue of loneliness is one that we overlook so many times.
In some instances, you have persons who are living in a house with a number of people and yet still they're lonely. Yes, because the interaction is not there, the engagement just simply isn't there, as you rightly put it. They just seem to be a byproduct of all that's going on. And that's, you know, when you miss them, when you real, you realize it's when they're gone.
Yes. And you look back and you say, well, I should have spent more time, you know, could I do this, I should have done that and all those kinds of things.
There's another element of our discussion this morning that I find really interesting. Caribbean team lead at Incarceration Nations Network and representing his attorney, Alexis Nali. Tell us a bit about this organization.
[00:11:50] Speaker B: Hi, good morning. Sure. So Incarceration Nations Network, or INN for short, it's a global network that supports, instigates and popularizes innovative prison reform and justice reimagining efforts around the world. INN is a partner led organization that's, we're here, we're partnering with ue, we're partnering with other organizations throughout Trinidad. And it's globally minded and locally grounded. It's attuned to problems but driven by solutions. We're focused on systemic change. And even as we work to clean up the mess of mass incarceration in the here and now, we're hoping to develop sustainable efforts that can continue on long after INN is gone. And so we are committed to transnational solidarity, intersectional working toward a world without prisons and ensuring that those directly impacted by the justice system lead the way to its radical reimagining. And so this organization's founder and executive director, Dr. Baz Dreisinger, she's also in Trinidad now. She's a professor at John Jay College of Criminal justice at City University of New York. And she's the author of the critically acclaimed book Incarceration A Journey to justice in Prisons around the World, which is the namesake of this organization.
[00:13:10] Speaker A: Yeah. So tell us about some of the problems that I don't want to say are more prevalent but that need addressing.
[00:13:17] Speaker B: Right. So of course everyone knows about the, the lengthy remand periods. Right. Individuals sent to, to prison before trial, who Wait decades, you know, before they're ever able to get their, their fair day in court.
There are lots of issues that we've seen in the juvenile justice space where young people who are supposed to have extra protections under Trinidad law, they.
Such as, you know, having a parent present with them during police investigations. Sometimes that's not happening. Such as having duty counsel present during their interrogations. Sometimes, you know, that doesn't happen.
Well, we see things like this happening and instances over and over again. And so the overarching goal of justice on the Move, this project that we're collaborating on with the University of the West Indies, is to strengthen access to justice in Trinidad and Tobago through the provision of civil and criminal legal aid services, as well as capacity building activities for law students and justice stakeholders. So we are hoping to encourage the next generation of lawyers to address some of those issues that I just mentioned.
[00:14:32] Speaker A: I was about to ask that very same question. How does INN address these issues, these things that need to be dealt with?
Activism. Do you sit and speak with administrations?
How does it work?
[00:14:47] Speaker B: Yeah, so a wide range of things, including activism, including talking with leaders and decision makers. For this particular project, justice on the move, we've got three activities. So operating the mobile legal aid clinic that Dr. Afonso and Dr. Huggins were mentioning a bit earlier, that is just one activity under the project. The other two activities include representing young people in conflict with the law. And so we do hope to actually litigate some cases and provide specialized legal aid services to young people. Currently, at the Youth Transformation Rehabilitation center, we're also hoping to facilitate dialogue and convene workshops for justice stakeholders and law students. And that's including individuals who are system impacted, those who have returned home, and those who are currently incarcerated.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: Yeah. I can tell you that in this country we have some serious challenges when it comes to the administration of justice.
And you hear them all the time. You see them. When I spent time covering court.
[00:15:56] Speaker C: You.
[00:15:56] Speaker A: Would hear so often persons who've been incarcerated for very lengthy periods of time, 19 years in one instance, and their court matter has not begun.
And I remember a couple of years ago being called for jury duty. And I remember sitting in the high court and that morning before they got down to the jury business, the judge dismissed 15 matters in the space of 20 minutes, or rather not dismissed, but adjourned for one reason or the other. This one is not ready, that one is not ready. When the state prosecutor was ready, the defense was not ready. And it went like that. And then she expressed the frustration that this is what they have to deal with every single morning. And there was one gentleman who. Who got up after his matter was adjourned again and said that he's been inside for 14 years.
And you can. I mean, that's unacceptable on so many different fronts. And any sort of effort to address that is an effort in the right direction. But the discussions that we've had thus far suggest that this UE Legal aid clinic is much more than just a talk shop.
The issues that are being addressed, the personalities that are being brought in to address these issues, tell me at least that there is great depth to this UE Legal aid clinic. And that's to the credit of the organizers. Dr. Alfonso, tell us about the thought process in bringing some of these players together to make this a reality.
[00:17:38] Speaker C: So, Mr. Mohabia, I have to say that it was actually a group effort in conceptualizing the approach to legal aid. And there are legal aid clinics that are done, and anytime justice is made accessible to the public, that's a good thing. But we felt that there was a need for additional support, because sometimes people think that they have a legal issue, but in talking to a lawyer, it's not really legal.
They just need to talk to someone. And there's another type of support that they need. So, for example, in El Dorado, we realized no one actually went to the social workers by themselves. They came to lawyers first, and the lawyers said, this is not a legal problem, but we can't send you away because you need to talk to someone. Because, as Dr. Huggins was pointing out, there were elderly people who were being abused by siblings. There were elderly people who were being. Whose land was taken from them because they went by someone who said, just sign this. So, yes, it became a legal issue, but the fact is they are unhoused now, and they are being physically abused, and they needed additional support. Now, if you just come to me as a lawyer, and I think sometimes lawyers sometimes feel we could fix all problems that we can't. So we realized that we needed that additional support for persons who are, in fact, encountering serious challenges because of their vulnerability in the community and in society. And that is where Dr. Huggins plays an invaluable role, because sometimes the people really needed to talk to someone who could lend that kind of support. So our idea was, we're calling it a legal aid clinic, but we actually call it justice on the Move, because we think social justice is as important as legal justice. And our aim is to provide that holistic approach to supporting persons who need the necessary resources and who may not for some reason be able to access it either through their economic situation or because there's a lack of knowledge of available resources.
[00:19:24] Speaker A: I can tell you it's a very honorable attention. And from, from, from, I guess from the response to the first one, it's well subscribed and the more people hear about it, the more people are going to come and avail themselves to the, the services that are available. And as I said, you know, after the first conversation and now the second one, looking at the, the broad scope that the clinic has adopted and, and, and we're talking about some of the things. There may be a lot of other things that, that we're not discussing here this morning.
You can tell that this is much more than the average, which urges me to encourage the people listening in to us to take advantage of these opportunities, as I did with the first one and urging people, well, this is in my arrow and you'll give me the nitty gritty again as to where, when, why and how all those other things. But Myara went too far and people could turn it into a road trip as well. Even though sometimes people who might be coming for advice from a legal clinic, their mind may not be on going and having a good time at the beach, but it's a service. And mayor was a large area.
[00:20:34] Speaker C: Mr. Mohavia. Although we did our first clinic in El Dorado, persons from Deep south were coming because they heard about it and they said they're going to take a drive up because they want to access. There was something about the UE brand that they felt they would be able to get independent, impartial advice. This is also available through Law association and other genuine providers of legal aid services. But I'm saying that your reach through the radio station got the message very far. And distance was not an impediment to persons coming to the clinic.
[00:21:04] Speaker D: Yeah, I would have to say there was a lot of specialized lawyers there, which was very helpful. I had a gentleman who came, he had a matter with his family matter for children custody. And I think he had a lawyer before, but he wanted another opinion. And we had a family lawyer there and she was fantastic. He was, he got a new spin on the ball. He understood what he needed to do and he was much more empowered. You could feel that, you know, you could feel like, okay, I finally have something that makes me say, I'm going to be able to really fight for the custody of my child. And that's what, that's what matters. You know, really getting to the heart of what has been ailing him was the. One of the best things that we did. So the specializations of the lawyers was also something that was excellent for, for this particular unit.
[00:21:50] Speaker A: And I tell you, there are people who are confronted with some. Some real serious challenges and, and they don't know where to go. They, even though they have legal representation, they don't feel, and this is not a cast aspersions on the representation they have. Sometimes people just don't feel that, you know, that. That I'm getting what I need to get or this is working the way I want it to work for whatever reason. There may be a number of reasons for that. And speaking to somebody else gives you a fresh perspective.
It may not, if not a fresh perspective, a new idea as to, well, maybe you can try this as opposed to what you've been trying before and everything else. And there are some frustrations that people confront when they're dealing with legal matters of all natures that sometimes they just don't know how to treat with. Because when you're dealing with a court system that by and large, you as an individual can't really engage, you have to go through your attorney, you have to go through the process, you have to wait. It can be very frustrating.
And it's only when you're in that kind of scenario do you understand the challenges that confront you on a mental note, on a financial note, and all these other notes that take place. And family court, I'll tell you, there are some stories coming out of family court that really make you want to sit up and raise more than just your eyebrow. So once again, to people listening in to us, the opportunity is there with the second installment of this UE legal aid clinic, which is free.
We have to emphasize that once again, it's free to the public. You don't have. There's no cost involved because that is sometimes a hurdle that people that prevents people from coming out. So we don't want that to be one of those.
Are there other issues that were raised at the initial clinic that you think the wider public need to know about?
[00:23:46] Speaker C: I think one of the themes that came out is that the most people just the process of law is intimidating, so they tend to trust the words of an attorney. And without knowing more, they sometimes part with large sums of money because they believe this is their way out of this legal challenge. And most times we had to say that there's no need for you to part with this kind of money. In the same way you could go to a doctor if a Doctor says, cut off your foot. You'll say, well, let me just go and talk to another doctor to make sure before you cut the foot, you don't part with all the money. It's the same thing with lawyers. You are allowed to chat, get another opinion. But people are so scared when they get a legal document that they. They just want it gone and they want it moved away. And sometimes, and I'm not saying this is all the time, they lack the necessary experience and they may not necessarily say so. And it's important for the litigants, for clients, for citizens to feel empowered. We need to ensure that we deconstruct the fear and that unknowing nature of law so that people can be empowered when they say, this is not correct. And I tell people, if you feel that what. The advice you're receiving is not correct, take that feeling. Because there's a reason why. And, and I think that the challenge that we were seeing is that large sums of money had been paid. People had mortgaged their properties to pay legal fees and nothing was done. So that I don't know how to undo that after you spent this large sum of money or somebody who spent the entire pension after they retired on a piece of land, but the person who they gave the money to ran away and they didn't even own the land.
Come to a place where there was nothing I could do to advise the person. So I would tell people, stop parting with money. If money is so difficult to get, why are we parting with it? If a deal is so nice that you need to act now, it's not a real deal, let them move on. Save your money. It is the parting of money that was shocking me that people felt that they were going to really get a deal either before the legal issue or in the retaining of a lawyer. And I think we need to be careful about how we just part with money and the advice that we accept.
[00:25:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:47] Speaker D: Another thing I want to add is that the students that you're teaching, you know, in Dr. Alfonso is also important that they are learning what it is to. To give and, you know, to volunteer and to provide, you know, legal advice for free for people who are vulnerable, you know, so I felt my students really, you know, being in the public, they learned a lot about, you know, what's the issues and how to be thoughtful and empathetic and to provide good, good advice as best as we can.
[00:26:15] Speaker A: In any profession, you will have unscrupulous characters that's given.
And it's unfortunate though, that sometimes the Unscrupulous in a group tainted for the rest, you know, and that's just the way it is in every profession in the media. We have some people who I don't think should be in the media anyway, just as you would have doctors and lawyers and other professionals across the board. It's something that you just have to navigate. And this is where I guess let the buyer beware rings true, that, you know, people need to be a little more discerning in how they treat with certain things. We're almost to the end of our interview because I have a couple messages to take us up to the top, but now might be a good time as any for us to give people some of the nitty gritty details as to what's going to happen, when it's going to happen, and so on.
[00:27:08] Speaker C: Sure. So the second installment of our justice on the Move, which is a legal aid clinic, will be on the first Saturday, the 1st of February from 10am to 3pm at the Mayaro BPTT Resource center on Beaumont Road in Mayaro. It will bring together a team of experienced volunteer lawyers who will advise on the breadth of legal issues together with a team of experienced social workers. And even if you are not 100% sure whether you have a legal issue, come down, talk to us, there's absolutely nothing you're losing. It's a wonderful drive down to mayor and we will provide the necessary advice and support.
[00:27:43] Speaker A: Yeah. So for persons thinking about it, because they're listening and they say, well, all right, listen, let me go down and talk to these people about this matter and find out from them what I should or should not do or everything else. What should people bring with them, if they should bring anything at all.
[00:27:59] Speaker C: We would suggest you bring any documentation that you've received through your lawyer from your lawyer from the other side. Bring it if you have a deed, it's a land matter, bring the documents that you think are necessary. We will filter through them. Of course, if it is that you don't bring anything, it limits the advice that we can provide. But the more documentation you bring, if it's a custody matter, any court documents would be very important and helpful when we're trying to provide advice.
[00:28:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And just, just give us once more as we end the, the venue and the, the time and so on. Again.
[00:28:28] Speaker C: Yes, it's the Miyaru BPTT Resource center on Bumo Road in Mayaru and it will be Saturday the 1st of February from 10am to 3pm yeah.
[00:28:39] Speaker A: Gentlemen and ladies, I want to thank you for being with us here this morning because just as you say that the station helps get your message out, in the same breath, I hope that in getting the message out, we help some of the people who are listening in to us because that's the overall agenda. You know, the radio station is about entertainment. Yes. It's about information as well. And I do hope, just as with the first installment in El Dorado, that people left wherever they had to to come and try to get that assistance that they do, because legal matters, as you rightly said and we've been saying, can be challenging, it can be intimidating, it can be very, very expensive at the end of the day. So any assistance that people can get is definitely welcome. I want to thank all three of you for being with us here this morning, giving us the opportunity to spread this message on your behalf. And we wish you all the best on your second installment. Are there plans already for a third?
[00:29:33] Speaker C: There is, there are, but we haven't fully come from the venue. And we'll be on here.
Thank you very much, Mr. Mohavia.
[00:29:41] Speaker A: I look forward to the conversation. Thank all three of you for being here this morning. And that's how we end our interview here this morning, ladies and gentlemen, on UE's legal aid clinic, this second installment taking place in Mayaro. And of course, I urge each and every one of you to go down and take advantage of it and find out, you know, how, how this could possibly help you deal with some of the, the situations that you're confronted. The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.
