PRISON MATTERS ON THE RISE FULL

[00:00:00] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Rajkumar, good morning. Oh, your mic. [00:00:13] Speaker C: Good morning, Devi. And good morning to your listeners. [00:00:15] Speaker B: Good morning, good morning and welcome back to the offices and the studio of Freedom 106.5 FM. How are you feeling this morning? [00:00:22] Speaker C: I'm feeling great. [00:00:23] Speaker B: All right, so as a former prison liaison and a president of the Prison Officers association, we talking some of the things that's taking place in the prison? [00:00:31] Speaker C: Yes. [00:00:32] Speaker B: All right, let's pull the mic. Right? Yeah. In front of you, right. We're talking about the things in the prison and I know you would send me a lot of correspondence during the morning and during the day and we talk regularly, you know, what are some of the latest developments? I saw an article that came out, it was in 2010, they was asking for a prison facility in central Trinidad. [00:00:50] Speaker C: Yeah, I remember back then because of the normal problem that we have severe overcrowding, high remand population, we have gang violence inside the prison and short staffing. There was a call for facility in the Carnee Central area in South Trinidad, wherever it is that the government at the time would be able to have that facility to, to deal with the situation that we currently have, even at present overcrowding. There was even a call for the closure of Carrera Convict prison and that never took place. Now there's a call for the closure of Porter Spain prison. So certainly there's need for a population, a prison population away from the city life so that you could accommodate everything. And that facility needs to have proper infrastructure in place to accommodate remands, remandees. You're talking about prison reform, prison programs, proper rehabilitation exercise to take place. Because this is one of the areas that we've been failing and continue to have a high recidivism rate. So if we do not deal with those issues and address a prison complex in that sense, rather than having eight, nine facilities throughout Trinidad and Tobago, we could have one or two large facilities like the maximum security prison. And this new facility I understand that the government is speaking of. [00:02:25] Speaker B: So they're looking at it in terms of constructing a prison facility, a multi leveled facility, or is it going to be a compound where it's maybe two story buildings, but multiple buildings. I did some research in other parts of the world where state of the art correctional facilities. There's a large area, but there's housing unit A, housing unit B, high risk, most dangerous prisoners and they have different sections. But I don't know if we have the real Estate in Trinidad for it. So I'm thinking a couple buildings on the compound, but multi storied, I don't know. [00:03:08] Speaker C: No, but that, that facility that the government has earmarked in Komoto, that could, the infrastructure could be stretched across and that you could accommodate. But whoever is dealing with it must understand how a prison infrastructure goes along in terms of what actually happens, the different facilities. Sometimes we have persons who could be in charge of it and they don't understand the concept of how prison operates because there are areas and in terms of the flow, the flow of how programs, for example, you have the remandees, what do you have in place, how you structure the remand population, how you structure the convicted section in terms of the inmates flowing system, you need to look at the security aspect of it. How do you actually manage the whole area? Then you're talking about let's say the rehab programs in terms of agriculture, whatever facilities that the government is going to seek to implement, there must be that infrastructure layout of how you actually dealt with. I visited several prisons in the US and even in the Caribbean and you would have seen a layout of how it is in the Caribbean you do not have the big accommodation for large spans to deal with that type of infrastructure. But in the US I remember visiting you actually see an area where the officers do not enter the prison with their personal belongings. There are dormitories outside of the prison itself and everyone is scanned and searched going into the prison. So it must have that kind of consideration in terms of. If you're looking at infrastructure, are we. [00:05:00] Speaker B: Still having a challenge with officers not being searched when entering the prisons? [00:05:05] Speaker C: Yeah, you continue to have that issue that you'll have some of the officers find innovative ways. For example at Golden Grove they are scanning facilities that enter into the prison and. And recently there was an exercise conducted by the police and the prison and in the women's prison you had contraband being found. How did that come in, baby? [00:05:32] Speaker B: If you. Yeah, that happened recently. Right. [00:05:33] Speaker C: So if we have that facility to enter the prison, but then you still find innovative ways of things getting inside of it. So had those lines way back that there is a process in terms of how you deal with on a daily basis and every area and aspect of the operations of the prison in terms of eradicating contraband issue, at what level. [00:06:00] Speaker B: Do we stop search prison officers when they're coming to work? So we starting from a. I don't know, the different ranks, if it's an officer, one, two, I don't know. [00:06:07] Speaker C: Right so I remember back in 2010. Now some may say, well you're talking about. But that was the time when I was there. And 2010 there was an issue of the commissioner of prison did not want his senior rank to be searched. And we found certain ranks that we knew who were bringing contraband. And there was that issue. And the minister back then, John Sandy, he would have said every rank to be searched. And after that period it went back to normal. Not everybody is being searched. And so what you're saying, you are different. You are the senior rank, Davy. And I am the junior rank. Are you better than me? Do you have integrity? That means that you will not be bringing contraband inside of the prison. And there are allegations of other persons who are brought in contraband. [00:06:54] Speaker B: The thing about it is people talk about background checks. And you can chime in on the conversation very quickly if you wish. 6252257 and 627 3223. I saw a call was coming just now. You can call me back if you so desire. The thing for me is this person's circumstances change. So entering the prison service, doing exams, getting through, becoming a prison officer after your training and you are deployed. When you get into the actual working environment and you realize where you're being threatened. Maybe you take out one or two loans. I'm just saying. And you're now being paid to do this. It reaches a stage where you become compromised. [00:07:30] Speaker C: Yes. [00:07:31] Speaker B: So maybe as a junior they couldn't search you. But as a senior you realize, well look, I could eat our food as we just say. Or. Or make money on this. And you decide to go down that wrong road before you answer. Hello. Good morning. [00:07:44] Speaker D: Good morning, Mr. Davi. [00:07:45] Speaker B: Good morning. [00:07:46] Speaker D: And to your guest, Mr. Rajkumar. Mr. Rajkumar, I would like to hear your thoughts, your views on the reality that while Trinidad and Tobago and many countries their prison services and systems have to be expanded exponentially to meet with the requirements and the demands of high crime. There are countries and nations in the world where some prisons have been reduced. In fact, I think it's in Denmark. Some time ago they had to close down the prison system because of a shortage of prisoners. How do you rationalize this reality? Thank you, Princess Tong. [00:08:26] Speaker C: But just to answer Princess Tong, understand that situation. Denmark, there are other countries to where there are different types of prison. In India you have a prison where people go to the stay at the prison at night. And during the day they go to their workplaces. In terms of the type of program the social Environment, different cultures facilitate different types of prison settings. So while Denmark has that and because of the, the social network, the social support programs that they have that employs people so that the prison population is not as high, is not as what you'll find in other countries. So certainly there are areas that need to focus in terms of how we deal with the prison itself. [00:09:23] Speaker B: The thing about it is the low prison having to close down prison facilities. The difference with prisons in the US and other countries, is it solely run by government or is it that they have a governor? You know, something was, I was looking at it and it didn't seem as though it was run by the state holding and solely it had private interest partners because they wanted persons to come into the prison system. Could I hold those making money or something to that? [00:09:48] Speaker C: Right, so what you have Davy, is that some of the prisons are semi, semi, semi privatized. [00:09:53] Speaker B: Good morning. [00:09:55] Speaker D: Good morning gentlemen. Doorbasser trees here. [00:09:58] Speaker C: Morning. [00:09:58] Speaker D: I have a kind of funny feeling that we are not making use of the technology to keep prisoners monitored and you know, remand and those that could be let out for, you know, someone goes to prison for not paying maintenance and so on. Whereas you could easily put a anklet on them and let them go and work and help support their child. You know, little traffic this and that. People could go to work, they have this anklet, they report to these stations. I have a feeling that we just locking up people that really don't need to be locked up and we are building expensive prisons and then we are telling the population it's so much to keep a prisoner when a lot of them could simply be out there because they are really no risk to anybody. And it's a graduated scale, of course. Judicial officers will have to determine who it stays in and who goes out and how you change that and how you monitor it and so on. But we are not using the technology. We are building these huge. Well, we intend to and just keep people locked up and then we say the system is overwhelmed and so on, but we are not using the technology appropriately. I want to get your comment on that, sir. Thank you. [00:11:20] Speaker C: Yeah, well, we have introduced the electronic monitoring. In 2012, the government had introduced the electronic monitoring bill and subsequent times you had where it actually came on stream. So we actually have that, that is used for a certain class of prisoners. But yes, it could be expanded. It would require staffing, it requires more resources being deployed in that particular area. And yes, there are other technologies that we could use effectively in terms of, let's say Case management, the infrastructure must go in hand in hand with case management. So there are some areas that we could use the technology to actually deal with those kinds of issues. And I agree with you. [00:12:09] Speaker B: All right, so we switching gears very quickly now as we get set to chat with the president of the Police Complaints Authority. Mr. David west is joining us online this morning and he's here with us on Freedom 106.5 FM. I believe this is his first time with me on the program. Hello, good morning, Mr. West. Good morning and welcome. [00:12:28] Speaker A: Good morning. Thank you very much for having me. [00:12:30] Speaker B: Indeed so. And a lot is taking place. I want to keep this interview very, very strict, to the point and get what we need to get out so the public could understand the Police Complaints Authority a little better. And I want to break it down in such a way where the average citizen understands their rights as it relates to police officers recordings. And we will look at ways as how civilians should treat with officers and how we how the PCA is assisting with bridging the gap and building that confidence and trust in police officers yet again. So, Mr. West, good morning to you. We have had a lot of talk in the public's domain, even coming from government ministers where they are hoping or they want to kind of muzzle persons or prevent persons from recording. We are being told we could record. There's rules of doing it. Can you share some light this morning as it relates to policy pertaining to persons recording police officers in their line of duty? [00:13:32] Speaker A: Sure. It's very simple. You are allowed to video record police officers in an interaction with them or if you see something, you can videotape them. However, you cannot interfere with them in the execution of their duty. That means you cannot go in their face or be too close close to interfere with the execution of their duty. So you have to keep a safe distance. But you are allowed to video record police officers. It is not against the law. Judges have agreed or pronounced that it is valid. You can, you can videotape officers and also to former commissioners of police have also said, so you can videotape police. [00:14:18] Speaker B: Officers with officers in past and present. Well, in the past we have seen this happening where a person is attempting to record and the officer is cautioning such person about the recording. So much so that they are telling the person based on the recording, you are interfering, all right, with me executing my duties. And they attempt to take away person's phone. They took it away, in some instances damaging the phone. What is the recourse for citizens in instances like this? And is the police Correct. In saying that you are interfering with them because you are recording. [00:14:55] Speaker A: No, if you are a safe distance away and you are not interfering with them in the execution of their duty, that is a legal video recording. The police would be wrong to interfere or to grab your phone away from you because that is your right to video record. Police officers, we have had complaints about that before and we have made recommendations to the Commissioner of Police. What is the correct protocol as it relates to that? [00:15:22] Speaker B: We have. Police officers are saying that. I mean, and I'm only asking you these questions because I want persons to be very clear. Officers would then say to some citizens, and I've seen video where I did not give you permission to record my images. Please stop recording me and the police officers. You can be arrested for recording me without my permission. [00:15:43] Speaker A: That has, you cannot be arrested for recording without your permission because you are in a public space. All right? So therefore, you can record any incident taking place. [00:15:56] Speaker B: So we could record it now. Yes, but do we. Forgive me, Mr. West, but I have to ask you because I want it clear. Do the public. Does the public need to ask an officer or get permission? The officer saying, yes, you can record. Do they need. [00:16:18] Speaker A: No, they do not need permission to record. [00:16:20] Speaker B: They do not. How has recordings assist the Police Complaints Authority with bringing officers to justice? [00:16:27] Speaker A: Well, as you can see, a recording is an independent activity. It is not done by any. For example, CCTV footage is an independent recording activity. It's not done with any bias. It actually captures what is actually taking place. It is a very good form of evidence for the PCA and for anybody looking at it. It's an independent form of evidence which the PCA uses to evaluate complaints. And we wish, and we hope the public continues to use their video phones or CCTV footage to capture images if officers are transgressing the law. [00:17:14] Speaker B: Let me ask you another question that came up, and I often wonder, and I know the public does as well, members of the Police Complaints Authority, employees and staff there, are they police officers or are they civilians? [00:17:32] Speaker A: They are civilians. The act says, or the act mandates that it's a civilian oversight body. Okay. Now, we do have officers, or we do have former or retired police officers working for the pca, but they are former or retired police officers. They are not serving members of the Trinity Police Service. They are independent civilian investigators or officers. [00:18:02] Speaker B: I'm happy that you clear that up, because the misconception of officers, investigating officers, there is this conception that's conceptualizing person's mind that they're going to cover up and I'm happy that you were categorically clear that there are no active members of the police service currently employed at the Complaints Authority, Police Complaints Authority at. [00:18:29] Speaker A: This time and will never be. Not at this time, will never be, because that's what the act states do. [00:18:35] Speaker B: We need to have concerns that these former officers that are now part of the Police Complaints Authority would have built relationships with it with colleagues. They would have had their batch, as it were, my batch, and then they are now receiving a report that their batch, or maybe former friends, they form bonds they form in the police service they now have to investigate. Could the public safely say that based on the fact that you are a past police officer now employed with the pca, do we have to be concerned that you might pick up for your friend? [00:19:04] Speaker A: That's a valid question and a valid concern and we have taken steps to alleviate that. So for example, in their employment contract they have to sign where they state that if there's any conflict of interest, meaning that they know the person that they investigate in, they must alert the authority and we will decide whether or not to remove them from the case or not. Plus, if you understand our investigative process, okay, it is very difficult for an investigator to, let's say, hide evidence against a batch because what happens is that the investigator, normally we put them, does report to the team lead, okay? And the team lead then goes through their file before it is passed to the legal department to make sure that all the evidence has been collected for the alleged criminal offense or disciplinary offense. Right. Once that is done, it then goes to the authority to make sure that the I's are dotted and the T's are crossed. Okay? So you have several layers of supervision, of accountability in doing an investigation. So an officer cannot then say, for example, not take a statement from a main witness because we would, because we would pick it up, you understand? So therefore that is how we do the investigations. So it is very difficult and even self, if the team lead is doing an investigation of his own batch, the team leads file still needs to go through legal to be checked to make sure that is not a statement or some crucial piece of evidence is left out. And it also comes to the authority to double check to make sure that what evidence we have against that officer is enough for a criminal offence. Or we didn't, or we didn't get enough evidence to make a referral. So it is very robust in our investigative process. [00:20:58] Speaker B: You know, I'm very happy that you said that because my follow up question would have dealt with transparency and accountability as to how do we hold. How are we certain that the officer or the individual assigned a particular case? How do we hold him to accountability and transparency given the fact that he would have crossed all his T's and dotted his I's? But you're saying it's a layered tiered process that the investigator goes through in terms of his reporting. [00:21:26] Speaker A: Correct and correct. And if it's a criminal offense, it goes to the DPP to go through our file to make sure that we have enough evidence to lead to lay a charge or for him to lay a charge. So you see, so that is why it is very robust. The investigative process is very robust. It has built in checks and balances in our investigative process. [00:21:48] Speaker B: If it is unearthened that one particular employee of the PCA did not disclose his closeness to a particular individual of the TTPs that they are investigating, what process is taken, what is done, what is taken then to deal with that said employee who did not disclose this? However, some other person said, but you know, this man and this man, these friends, up to two weeks before this investigation, they were seen hanging out. Lyman. They have a history of that, but he did not disclose it or she didn't disclose it. What happens then? [00:22:22] Speaker A: Well, it would follow any IR industrial relations process. The complaint would be made to the investigator. We will state the complaint made against him. He would obviously have a chance to respond, to get legal advice to respond. We would then have an internal investigation done. And based on the outcome of the investigation and his response, we would then the authority would then take. It would then take the decision whether to dismiss him or to suspend the person or to determine that the infraction was not as grievous as it was. So it would take a normal IR process. [00:23:03] Speaker B: Beautiful. [00:23:03] Speaker A: So I think our policies in place and we have a HR manager to ensure that it takes a normal IR. [00:23:10] Speaker B: Process because we don't want to end up in an industrial relations situation where the PCA is now being sued. And, you know, so I'm happy that that is cleared up. Let's move on. Very quickly, as we continue with our interview, we are chatting with a president of the Police Complaints Authority, Mr. David West. [00:23:25] Speaker A: It's a director. [00:23:26] Speaker B: Director, sorry, I've seen President, Director, forgive me, Director of the Police Complaints Authority. As we go forward with this now, let's take a look at how citizens can get access to the Police Complaints Authority in terms of making a report. I don't want you to speak to anything that is currently active and ongoing, but any incidents that you can anonymously chat about that persons would have come into the Police Complaints Authority and receive redress. [00:23:53] Speaker A: So you're asking what ways they can come. [00:23:55] Speaker B: What ways? How do they. Well, yeah, you can share some insight on that. [00:23:58] Speaker A: Okay, right. So there are several ways in within which you can come to the PCA and there are several ways in which you can lodge your complaint. Firstly, as you stated, you could walk in to the PCA at level 24, tower D in Ryson Road in Port of Spain. Or you can go to Tobago. We have an office in Tobago in Bacolet Street, Caribana Building. You can go there, you can walk in and give you a complaint or you can email us at www.pca.orgtt or infopca.orgtt. you can email in your complaint and we will respond to you on the, on the complaint. All right, we haven't. We have an app. We have an app you can download on your Android or. [00:24:52] Speaker B: Ios devices. [00:24:52] Speaker A: IOS phone, right? You just type in Trinidad and Tobago Police Complaints Authority and it will download for free. And you can download. And when you download, you can have several options. You can put in your report, you can attach photographs, you can record your report, or you could record a recording and attach a recording to the report. And then you can also, if you want, you can make a report anonymously to the pca. [00:25:19] Speaker B: What are your thoughts as it relates to the Homeland Security Minister that wants police officers to investigate police officers and not members or employees of the. Of the pca? [00:25:30] Speaker A: I was waiting for you to come to that question and you took long. [00:25:34] Speaker B: I had to walk through the channels now, boy. And I want, I want, you see, when I talking with people like your good self, I want the man in the middle seat in the taxi to, to relate to the interview. That is why I would question you. That way we will have the discussion tailored in such a manner because I don't want the middleman in the seat to say this. Boring. He doesn't understand it. The language of the jargons being spoken is not relatable. So the Homeland Security minister, former police officer, puts his mouth in gear and while I disagree with some of the things, I still maintain the fact that I'm proud of him. He came in as a police constable and he rose through the ranks all the way up to our minister today. Well done. But he said he want police officers to investigate officers. Let's get the director of the Police Complaints Authority to share his insight and thoughts on that. [00:26:22] Speaker A: Okay, I will. I will start with the history of the PCA Act. All right. Because it's important to understand why the PCA act was amended in 2006. Okay. Before the PCA act, in 2006, you had a PCA act of 1998 where you had a board and the board was. And the board had no investigative powers. Okay. Those investigative powers were lodged with the police where a complaint would be made to the board. The board would then send a complaint to the police. Police would investigate it and report to the board. Okay. In 2006, that was, that was, that was not. The Parliament didn't agree with that method because it was not transparent and there was no accountability. So if Mr. The Honorable Member Minister looks at the Hansard of March 15, 2006, it will be clear to him why the PCA act came about. Now, the PCA act came about as a group of three pieces of legislation. I don't know if you remember, they amended the constitution. They amended the constitution to reform the Police Service Commission. They amended the Police Service Bill and they amended the Police Complaints Authority act when it passed a new complaint, Police Complaints Authority act, with a 3/5 majority where both Houses of Parliament agreed, okay. That we needed to amend the PC. We need to amend these legislation because there was no confidence in the police service. All right. So the bills, all the bills were passed with a special majority. And if you go. And I will quote from page 10 of the Hansard, of course, of course, where Mr. Manning deceased was speaking and he said. Can I quote? The Police Complaints Authority Bill also will now require a special majority for approval because it now includes a unit to investigate police officers. In other words, the investigation of police officers who are accused of committing transgressions that require investigations will not in the future be carried out by the police service itself, giving rise to themselves, investigating themselves. A unit is set up in the Police Complaints Authority for that purpose. And we believe this is a far superior approach to the approach that currently exists. Exists. Such a unit will have the flexibility of including persons of competence to do that job wherever such may occur. So it is quite clear that both Houses of Parliament agreed that the police investigating the police was not the best way to go. They wanted an independent Police Complaints Authority to investigate police. Okay, and let me just let you know that part of that committee that looked into the PCA act was former Attorney General John Jeremy, then under the. Under the PNM Government. [00:29:56] Speaker B: PNM government then, yeah. [00:29:58] Speaker A: Martin Joseph, former Martin Joseph on National Security, Camille Robinson Regis. Mr. Pandey was there, the Member for St. Augustine at the Time. The member for Carnee east and a particular member from Separia was also part of that committee and they agreed that the police should not investigate police. Okay. And to go further, I will just let you just share with you that you have several independent investigative bodies throughout the world. In the United Kingdom, you have the Independent Police Complaints Commission. Okay. In New York, for example, you have the Civilian Competent Review Board. In Ontario, Canada, you have the Office of Independent Police Review. In New Zealand you have the Independent Police Complaints Authority. In Australia you have the Australian Commission for Law Enforcement Integrity. And of course you have the Office of the Ombudsman in Europe in, for example, Ireland and Sweden and Finland. And you have a national police oversight body in South Africa and in Kenya also has an independent police oversight body. Regionally we have the Indicom, which is the Independent Commission for Police Complaints in Jamaica. In Belize you have the Office of the Ombudsman Police Investigations. And of course in Barbados you have an Independent Police Complaint Authority in Barbados. So the move is, and it's been internationally recognized that you, for independent bodies for the police service, you have an independent body looking at whether they committed criminal offences, serious disciplinary offenses or other related matters. So that is the PCA stance. And that is my response to the honorable member, Mr. Alexander. [00:31:59] Speaker B: Beautiful. So we are getting coming from the Director of the public of the Police Complaints Authority that it is not illegal to record persons, but you are cautioned to stay a safe distance. There is no required distance to say, well, you had to stay 10ft away once you do not disrupt the officer in the execution of his duties. You're not holding him back, you're not up in his face, but you are taking that recording at a safe distance. And even if you're moving around and you keep that recording going, that can be sent to the Police Complaints Authority via email or even on the app uploaded and sent to the team. And how quickly does is one assigned? You know what is the threshold for it to be a person makes a report to say, well, yes, this warrants a police investigation. [00:32:47] Speaker A: We have the policy that within seven days of the complaint or the initial report being made, you will get a response from the PCA indicating if it's a valid complaint, who the investigator is, his telephone number, an extension, and if it's not a valid complaint, we will say that it doesn't fall within the remit of the pca. [00:33:09] Speaker B: Simple. I love that it does not fall within the remit of the pca. Now, as we get set to wrap, because I know you're a very busy director. You have a lot going on with you and the team with some of these recent investigations that is coming up before our very eyes on unfolding in our papers daily. Let's talk a little bit about your thoughts in terms of bridging the gap between police officers and civilians, in terms of bringing about some sense of integrity, transparency, accountability and even trust of the public. What is the PCA's position in terms of assisting with bridging that gap? [00:33:40] Speaker A: Well, what we do is that we have our outreach in various parts of Trinidad and Tobago where we outline the powers and functions of the pca. What we do and what we cannot do and what we tell them is that, you know, we are trying to educate them about what the PCA does and how they can make a report. And also, too, what we do is we also give a lecture or we have a discussion with the police academy, young police officers, where we let them know what we do and what they should not be doing to, you know, to get anything to run afoul of the law and what the PCA does and how we investigate. And it's an independent investigation. So we hope that by doing our outreach and educational programs, we are bridging the gap between the citizens and the police. At the end of the day, we live in Trinidad and Tobago, too, and we want a fair and just society also. And we hope that the police would improve and discussions have been improving with the PCA and the police that, you know, what is transpiring and how we can better come together and the public can better understand the rules and the laws of the Trinidad Police Service. [00:35:04] Speaker B: Let me ask this question. When it comes to the directorship of the Police Complaints Authority, is this a political appointment where the instruments of your job is handed to you by the president? President, how does one apply for your position? [00:35:24] Speaker A: Well, what. What happens is that you're recommended. Okay? And you're recommended. And the prime minister then puts forward your name to the leader of the opposition. The leader of the opposition could either agree or disagree. If the leader of the opposition disagrees, then it's up to the president to determine whether or not they're going to go forward with the name of the person put forward. And so therefore, I am appointed by the president, not by any political party or any political person, but the president appoints me as the director of the Police Complaints Authority. And it's the same process for the deputy director, the Police Complaints Authority. [00:36:12] Speaker B: You see, what the concern was and why I asked is because it could be perceived that if you are appointed or your name was suggested by political party A, then whatever mandates of that party, the reason for appoint, for recommending your name by political party A, they have confidence in you. You seem to be a supporter of the party. You know, you align yourself with them a little bit so they fail based on your qualifications, you are very competent enough to head this. So when party B gets into governance, they could have a problem with you based on the fact that you were. Your name came up from the ruling party and then they lost and then this party is now in. And the reason for that question is based on what is being said in the political landscape now where the President of the Republic is concerned. You know, the ruling party is now accusing the president of being, you know, attached to the former government. So when it comes to the Police Complaints Authority and the leadership, the fact that you were recommended by one party and another party is in governance, you know, it gives the idea of something tainted. You know, would the ruling party respect your office enough and your integrity to know that you are going to discharge your responsibilities without fear or favor? [00:37:35] Speaker A: Well, I don't think that applies to me. As I said before, I'm appointed by the President on the advice of the Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition. I'm dealing with the police service. I don't understand. I don't see the connection or the link in politics in this position. It's apolitical. You know, I. [00:38:05] Speaker B: You know, I understand. I am very happy. [00:38:09] Speaker A: I am fortunate to say that I. Let's say I know both actors on both political divides. Okay? All I can say is that my parents brought me up well, taught me to have integrity and neutrality. And I have not made any comment on politics, on either form of government or this government. And I do not intend to do that. That is not my function and rule. My role and function is only to look at whether or not the police transgressed into a criminal matter or a serious disciplinary offense. It's a limited role, it's a very narrow rule. So in my view, politics doesn't play any part in this position at all. [00:38:58] Speaker B: I thank you very much, Mr. David West, Director of the Police Complaints Authority, for chatting with me this morning and clearing the air on some of these issues that have been long standing. And I no doubt, I'm certain that persons in the maxi right now shaking their head and could find a deeper appreciation for what you, the Deputy Director and your staff do on a daily basis to hold police officers accountable for their actions if they transgress the law. I thank you very much Mr. West and I do wish you a very safe and great carnival season ahead. [00:39:28] Speaker A: Thank you very much. All the best to you and your viewers and listeners and I would look. [00:39:31] Speaker B: Forward to chatting with you again in the not too distant future. Take care, buddy. [00:39:34] Speaker A: Not a problem. Take care. Have a good day. [00:39:36] Speaker B: Thank you very much. We have been chatting with the director of the Police Complaints Authority and we cleared the air on a lot of things that he had to say this morning. And I hope that brings about some sort of comfort to you. You know Rajkumar, I don't know if you're feeling a little better understanding their. [00:39:53] Speaker C: Role, but I've been listening to what he's been saying. So in terms of I heard he mentioned something, he was brought up well and spoke of integrity. Now that is a quality that is lacking in many people. And so to be part of an organization and if you lack that integrity, it means that it could fall. And so this is one of the things that when you asked earlier about searching. Right. And I had mentioned that, that search everyone because people, people you don't know who is who when they're going into the prison, you do not know what they are actually going inside of the prison with. So that's the need at that level of independence. And you set organization agencies as to make sure that you deal with the biases that you'll encounter from time to time. So as I say I've been listening to what you've been stating and you know I wouldn't want to push into the new direction but one of your caller was talking about systems in place, technology, use of the technology. And there was something in back in 2012 around there where the government had signed a memorandum of understanding with the Correctional Services of Canada. I don't know if you recall that they had served a memo, a memorandum. There was a big thing where we had officers from Trinidad went, visited the Canadian prison and so you had a lot of recommendations coming out of it. We had in terms of that we had case management system. So if we actually focus on the foreign countries that we are talking about, you will actually see a change. But it's like you do a program, you attend a training seminar and when you come back you forget all that you've been. The training seminar was all over and you're back to square one. [00:41:54] Speaker B: But when you traveled and you saw these facilities, no doubt you would have come back with recommendations and ideas and thoughts that you think would improve the prison service. Did you meet with stakeholders and relevant stakeholders within the Prison of the course. [00:42:08] Speaker C: At the national security level back then we would have had meetings. You coming back as a young individual, qualified, experienced, you find that the seniors didn't want to hear what you have to say. But a number of recommendations that the government of the day at the time would have put in place. It's on the board on the high perimeter fence. Those are things that we would have seen. The area that you have on the highway where Golden Grove, you have a prison industry that was designed to have prison industry. Now if you look into the area you'll see a lot of overgrown bushes and that's by the maximum security sports club, right. And so that, that is underutilized. Those are areas that we could focus on, utilize even the technology that we could bring in. And it was designed to set up like government employment agencies in terms of you have the private sector coming in and buying in. We have the free labor at the prison and so you have the investments by companies into these areas and the prisoners themselves can be part of this whole process where they will actually have some money at the end of the prison sentence. And so clearly there are a number of areas that focus needs to be on. One of the things I would have mentioned back then was independent prison Management Board, right? You see the fact that David west talk about integrity in terms of independent Prison Management Board. We've seen so many issues for years. There's so many commissions, Abdullah Commission, Kyrie, number of things taking place in Trinidad and tobacco. So the problems continue. So this is, this is what I take is that to effectively manage and monitor the prison condition, set performance standard, equality and justice, review the strategic plan that the prison would have and a continuous evaluation. You'll find that you're looking at the objectives. So you have to actually see some kind of results. But if you have it is left to the, to the, to the management there and we have the same problems continue to exist, then we are not going to see any kind of transformation. We will see bits of transformation but it needs an overhaul of the whole system. And this is what we've been seeing for years, that if we actually focus on that we'll actually see some changes. [00:44:41] Speaker B: And I think you advocating for this over the years and not giving up and keeping that relentless approach on it would help. Folks, we are chatting with Mr. Rajkumar Ramroop here, former prison liaison and former president of the Prison Officers Association. We're keeping in with us a little after the hour of 8 o'. [00:45:01] Speaker A: Clock. [00:45:01] Speaker B: We gotta take that commercial break. [00:45:04] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback Accountability the all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5 Continue. [00:45:12] Speaker B: To talk about the ilks that is affecting the prison society. And we have former prison officer Ann liaison and president of the prison Service Association, Mr. Rajkumar Ramroop. Good morning to you again, sir. [00:45:28] Speaker C: Good morning to you, Devi, and to your listeners. [00:45:30] Speaker B: All right, so we want to talk about, I mean a lot of things came up when it comes to the prison service negatively affecting. We talk about the officers not being searched, the pushback. And you know, for me I can understand how a government minister, the government, because you work the prison is controlled by the government, it's not private. And the government issues a policy, a rule, a mandate and the prison's commissioner can choose to disregard, disobey and toss away rubbish down the instructions handed down by your superior and do your own thing and escape with it, get away with it. And it's like no accountability. Nobody is holding him or her accountable for the blatant disregard and disrespect towards what was authorized for them to do. [00:46:28] Speaker C: Yeah, I agreed what you said because at the time the minister gave his rule ruling and the commissioner said, well, he will not have his senior officer search being subject to that. And then eventually he said that he will have them search but it wasn't happening and it's still not happening. Right. And so, but I wanted to just touch on the fact because I know, listen, I listen to your program and I know you have a lot of, a lot of callers who are on both sides of the divide and I really enjoy myself listening to here, how people interact. [00:47:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:05] Speaker C: Program. Right. And I wanted to make it clear that the, the prisons are run by Ministry of Justice, Ministry of Home affairs in some countries. Right. You have in the uk, Canada, like in uk, Her Majesty Prison and Probation Services in Canada, the Correctional Services of Canada, Jamaica, the Department, Trinidad, we have the Homeland Security. Right. India, you have the state governments sort of. In the US a bit unique. Prisons are split across levels. Federal prisons run by the Federal Bureau of Prison. State prisons run by each state. County jails often run by the sheriffs. The US also have private prisons more than most countries. So in some countries allow private companies to operate prison under government contracts, but the state still controls sentences and oversight. So that is just because I know after I leave you'll have your callers will be calling and they will, they will want to dispute some of the things I'm stating. But I like to always come with facts because that is what is important. You cannot deny the facts taking place now Right. [00:48:12] Speaker B: So I like the fact that you broke it down. Prisons are controlled by different factions in society across different parts of the planet. [00:48:20] Speaker C: Yes. [00:48:21] Speaker B: In Trinidad and Tobago, our prison is controlled by government. [00:48:25] Speaker C: Yes. [00:48:25] Speaker B: The minister. Well, now it's Homeland, but before the Minister of National Security. [00:48:30] Speaker C: Yes. [00:48:31] Speaker B: Now it's. That ministry is divided between Minister of Homeland Security and Minister of Defense. All right. They're both under the remit of National Security. So government takes charge. The minister is the boss. [00:48:43] Speaker C: Yes. [00:48:43] Speaker B: Of the. The Police Commissioner. The Police Commissioner is answerable to the Minister. So is the prison commissioner, Coast Guard command, all these people, Defence Force, brigadier, they answer to the Minister of National Security. They oversee these things. And the minister back then in 2010 handed down a mandate for all, including the Prisons Commissioner. When you're coming to and from the prison, you are subjected to search by your juniors. That has not happened. [00:49:12] Speaker C: No. And you know, this week, Davy, I was traveling in the southern main road, like if you're going to Marabella and you're looking over like Petro Trin, certain areas you actually were seeing and there were other industrial buildings that you actually see comes across the road. And that was one of the recommendations that you build the dormitory outside of the. The prison in Golden Grove and you have a overhead corridor taking you into so that the officers. Now I hear the complaining like Mr. Gordon, Jared Gordon would have had some article and he was talking about the officers don't have a phone, they don't have anything like that. Now they were phone system in place and who destroyed the. The phones. [00:49:55] Speaker D: Right. [00:49:55] Speaker C: I would leave it up to you to tell you who destroyed the phones. Right? You have. So you have. You must be innovative in how you. You see and then when you visit other persons, you actually see. So as a young person coming back then. And then you qualify yourself at the University of the West Indies, which is the premier university in Trinidad. [00:50:16] Speaker B: Indeed. [00:50:17] Speaker C: You're fine now. You're bringing ideas and your place. I remember the Commissioner of prison said to me, as long as he is alive, I will not get promoted promoted. And that was serious indictment and a number of challenges I've had. Not seeing promotion, not seeing things happening the way. And a lot of cries from prison officers in terms of the pension when they retire over time. That officers have been working since 2012. Whenever I see officers, they keep complaining to me like if I can do something 2012 over time, they have not been getting it when it goes before the auditor, some, some problem. And then eventually the, the overtime issues place on the back burner. You have Burner. You have actually increments that officers get increments. You have officers who are infringed in the prison and they have to wait a long time before the Public Service Commission. So I know I might get some stick from the Public Service Commission. But that is, that is the whole thing. The whole issue of promotion system that introduced a point based system and that was, was severely flawed. Before you had the Promotion advisory Board and there were judgments in the Privy Council that spoke over the favoritism with the Promotion Advisory Board. Then you introduced back a normal system. You may have merit and an ability taking effect. [00:51:45] Speaker B: Right. [00:51:46] Speaker C: And then you find a promotion system came on stream with point based system. And so the officers, now I know they are very disgruntled. You hear some of them talking about it, some get promoted. And so the system is a manipulation of the system. You move the goal post from time to time. [00:52:02] Speaker B: So then how do we. What are your recommendations or your thoughts on short term solutions to this ongoing debacle? [00:52:11] Speaker C: Right, so we need to, to focus on, on several areas, right. Let's say I will go to the infrastructure issue, the, the remand and we talk about the promotion. In terms of the remand you're talking about, you must have some in system in place where we have some more non custodial sentencing. [00:52:28] Speaker B: Right. So that will alleviate some of the prison congestion. [00:52:31] Speaker C: Right. You have your enforced tricker timelines for prosecution. People coming to the, to the prison. There should just. Should be that timeline in which we deal with the Ministry of Justice will have to take about the use of electronic monitoring more. As I said in 2012 the government had addressed the electronic monitoring the Administration of justice number 11 of 2012. So your listeners could fact check it in terms of modern infrastructure. Right? We need, need to have that modern. The fact that they're looking to close Port of Spain Prison and even Carrera Prison that we need to focus on the multi purpose facility, separate remand from the convicted violent from non violent. Because you have people mixing. There's no let's say the categorization, what we call classification in the prison system, professionalized prison system system, better pay for officers. I believe in housing, supporting the officers so that when you interact with the violent offenders inside at least you have a place where you can actually stay and continuous ethics and intelligence training because that is critical in terms of dealing with the inmates. Because I've noticed a lot of matters have been coming to the, to the courts and, and. And prison officers. The prison service is in default of of having to pay monies. The state have to pay monies because of these matters that are coming. [00:54:09] Speaker B: Hello. Good morning. [00:54:12] Speaker D: Good morning, gentlemen. [00:54:13] Speaker B: Good Morning. [00:54:14] Speaker D: Good morning, Mr. Ashkumar. [00:54:16] Speaker C: Morning. [00:54:17] Speaker D: Now I wanted just digress a little bit. You know, I remember a long time when a prisoner have about maybe two weeks, three weeks for the most and people have things to do. I don't know if you can remember that. Like I have a. I am two old people and they're saying something, living in a house when I have a big mango tree or some big tree to cut and prisoners it to cut it. [00:54:42] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:54:43] Speaker D: And go with it. [00:54:44] Speaker C: Yeah, we had that. We had that. It's still in place. No, but what you need to do. [00:54:48] Speaker D: I don't see it, boy. [00:54:49] Speaker C: What you need to do is write the commissioner of prison requesting that. And obviously if you know you have to use equipment, the prison will have to. It's not run free. We have to buy whatever. So in terms of cutting. So there. There was a tree cutting gang. But you have to make that request to the commissioner. [00:55:15] Speaker D: Yeah, but I remember a long time it was a public service. You had to pay for nothing. That's only colonial people running. Is that. [00:55:22] Speaker C: I understand what you're saying. [00:55:24] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:55:24] Speaker C: The times have changed. [00:55:26] Speaker B: So this is a paid thing. [00:55:28] Speaker C: All right. [00:55:28] Speaker B: Thank buddy. [00:55:29] Speaker C: You don't have to pay. [00:55:29] Speaker B: Who is colonial people you talking about? [00:55:31] Speaker D: I don't know. [00:55:32] Speaker B: But. But what colonial people? [00:55:33] Speaker C: But at the end of the day, David, if. If you have to buy a power saw that's not free. The government have to buy. [00:55:41] Speaker B: Are we talking about colonial? [00:55:43] Speaker C: So in terms of the rehabilitation, it all helps in the rehabilitation process. [00:55:50] Speaker B: You mean so one can write and get these prisoners to come out and assist with. [00:55:56] Speaker C: There are a number of initiatives that the prison service, I noticed there have been doing career affairs in certain communities. [00:56:04] Speaker D: Right. [00:56:05] Speaker C: Districts. So there are things that the prison service can do to strengthen that Stakeholders meeting outside there. There was an issue I was talking about like the mental health diversion. Right. In terms of court mandate treatment instead of incarceration. So we have a lot of mental health prisoners inside the prison. And rather than they come into the prison, there could be that set up for them. But that's all that requires intervention strategies to deal with it. And I believe in rehabilitation. We've been seeing the recidivism rate have been high since I have joined the prison service and I've left the prison service in that sense and it continues. There needs to be that partnership with the ngo. I've saw that. I was recently they the commissioner of prison had a stakeholders meeting with the NGOs and faith based at the prison training college. And that is something that we need to continue to address and to deal with it so that we can address the education and skill programs that we have so that the inmates and other inmates coming are uneducated. They are very high literacy rate. [00:57:19] Speaker B: All right. Good morning. Hello. [00:57:23] Speaker D: Good morning, Davy Good morning and good morning to your special guest. We talking about prisoners here, right? It have many people in prison not for big crime, for petty matters, say for instance, like when you're driving in a lonely road where they don't have houses, they have bus stop taller than Davy I and you three of us stand up together and the Bush toll why can they have these prisoners go and clean these areas, have them in big groups where they have the prison officer and a other security officer, one on the east and one on the westward entrance of the street where they can do the work? Because they're saying that how many areas are in Bush so if it is they are there and the state is maintaining them and they can do something to assist and help the country, we will all will have a better place to see. Thank you David. Have a blessed one. [00:58:31] Speaker B: All right. Thank you so much. And I mean I agree to call. [00:58:35] Speaker C: David that we could do a lot more and that one of the one of the recommendations I'm making in terms of independent prison management board I know they wouldn't like to hear that in terms of the administration operations, this is a cadre of social workers, psychology, law enforcement, accounting to make sure that we have lawyers, people, religious leaders who can actually manage the monitoring prison conditions in terms of the standards set the strategic plans so that these things need to come on stream. So once it's come on stream, you could actually manage because it requires a lot of resources and a lot of strategies coming in place to ensure that we see a trend on to be able to be one. [00:59:24] Speaker B: All right, we have to end here and leave it there. Mrs. Carolyn Sipasad beach on is coming up next. We talking woman in power. Boy, I mean normally when I speak with Ms. Carolyn, we talk on energy matters. Now we talking on matters of estrogen. That's just a little funny joke there for you guys. 20 minutes after 8 o'. Clock. Mrs. Carolyn Sipasad Bajan is up next. We talking woman in politics. She has a new program rolling out. We'll find out more about it. So we'll be back after this. Commercial break and I must say thank you very much to the former President of the Association Prison Association Rajkumar Ramrupi. [01:00:00] Speaker A: The best insight Instant feedback Accountability the all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.