ROLE AND FUNCTION OF THE PCA

[00:00:32] Speaker A: You're tuned into the all new freedom. 106.5. 106.5. [00:00:39] Speaker B: Welcome back. This time we welcome back to our program a gentleman who has been with us on several occasions. He joins us again this morning for us to have some interesting discussions, this thing called the police Complaints Authority. Welcome back to our program. PCA Director David west. Good morning to you. Welcome back to our show. [00:01:04] Speaker A: Morning Satish. Good morning to your listeners. How are you going? [00:01:08] Speaker B: I'm fine. Nice to have you back with us here this morning. Mid year we, I think we have a job to go to because ever so often when I go on it. [00:01:16] Speaker A: I will see him. [00:01:19] Speaker B: It's always nice to have these refresher discussions to get in some other things as well that people may want to know about and so on. So having you here this morning is very much about telling people what's been going on with the PCA, some of the advancements that have been made, people using the PCA mourn and all those kinds of things. But you may appreciate that even though the PCA is so much in the daily News and we know a lot about it, or we should know a lot about it, there are still some people who are not clear on what exactly is the PCA and its role and function. Let's begin our discussion there and allow you the opportunity to tell people, well, this is the PCA and this is what we're about. Tell us. [00:02:06] Speaker A: That's correct. You know, we still get confused with other bodies, which is worrying to me, but we are working on it. We have an education drive going on. You know, we were in Tobago recently. We have matters, you know, we're on the radio a couple of times, we're on a tv station. So we're trying to educate the public to what we do. So the PCA stands for police Complaints authority and we are an independent civilian organization. So let me repeat that. We are an independent civilian organization that deals with criminal matters involving police officers, police corruption and serious police misconduct and other related matters. So what happens is, if somebody is wronged by the police service in any way which falls within our remit of a criminal offence, police corruption or serious police misconduct, we can initiate an investigation against that. And matters of serious police misconduct are, for example, discreditable conduct, oppressive conduct, neglect of duties, a breach of confidence, unlawful or unnecessary exercise of authority, and those types of matters that we deal with now, we only have civilian based investigators in our employ in the PCA. Some were former police officers who have resigned, but we have now been moving on to try to get more civilian based investigators. And I can tell you right now, we have advertised for an investigator, which only, which we are looking for a civilian investigator with certain qualifications. And Satish, I have spoken to both Senator Paul Richard, who, you know, works with the Southern University of Chernobyl, Tobago, and also to, I'm speaking to somebody at UTT University of Cherontobago so that we can establish some sort of program where they can certify civilian based investigators. And both of them were very happy with our initiative because they realized that it's not only the PCA but integrity commission, environmental commission. All these people have investigators and they want more civilian based investigators because that is a way for transparency. And, you know, they don't want to feel that anybody knows somebody else from the former employee. So that is why we are going with, and that is why they are happy to come on board and to join with us because they see the need for these types of civilian investigators. We have also had our body cameras rolling out. You know, we are going out, the investigators are using the body cameras. It's been very effective. And so we are doing, and, you know, I just went on a training session with other attorneys from the PCA and investigators where we dealt with a course on asset management and civil forfeiture. So where we can find doing our own investigations. If an officer is, for example, is living outside his means or we see that he has sufficient wealth that, you know, that does not reflect his salary, we can then look at that from a financial point of view. So we are moving forward Satish and we are trying to broaden our horizons when it comes to investigations. [00:06:02] Speaker B: It's definitely a step in the right direction. And I know that the more resources you have, the better job you'll be able to do and the more cases you'll be able to treat with the last time you were here, we spoke about greater participation from the public in the services available from the PCA. How has that been going? Is it still we're seeing more people using the PCA. What's been happening? [00:06:29] Speaker A: Well, definitely they have been coming in. We have, the last time we mentioned on the, what we did for the complaints and initial reports, but our app has been very successful. Satish. People are using our app, which can be found at www.pca.org dot Tt or it can be found on the platform of the iOS phone or the Android phone. Satish. That has been used. Our website has been used also. People are making more complaints by the website and people are also coming in physically to level 24 Tawadi and also in Tobago to make reports. Okay? So it is increasing and we are, but we are coping and we are handling the matter. We want the public to make the reports. Once it's a legitimate, valid complaint, we will take it up and we will investigate it. [00:07:26] Speaker B: Earlier on, you spoke about the various. [00:07:30] Speaker C: All right, all right, all right, all right. [00:07:35] Speaker B: I. Now, the average individual may not necessarily be able to categorize or classify what an action could fall under. So they would need to come in and they would probably need to speak to someone and say, well, here, now this happened. Is there something there that can be pursued or what is that facility available to citizens? How does it work? [00:07:57] Speaker A: Okay, so as I said before, and we have several methods or means of, with which somebody can communicate with the PCA. They can come into the PCA at level 24, Tower D, or in Tobago, in Barclay street. They can walk in and see one of our complaint officers. They can get us on our PCA mobile app, they can get us on our website and they can call us now. So when they come in, they will see one of our complaints officers. And I must admit that our complaints officers have been doing an excellent job. They have, you know, they take not only the complaint, but they feel the pain of the civilian when they relate in this story of what transpired. So once they get that information, our complaints officer then uploads that on our Internet system, on our computers system, and they then goes across our legal department. So our legal department. So every day we have somebody. Again, I would like to thank our legal department for their work. A complaint of the investigator's number and contact, which is very important. And I must make mention that the complainants themselves also must give us a number so we can complain of or we can contact them. Now, of course, you can make a complaint anonymously and, you know, that has been used quite often. So we have various methods and means you can contact us. So once the complainant contacts us and we say, yes, your matter is within remit, it is given across our investigators to investigate. Now, of course, satish depends on the complexity of the matter. Investigations take various lengths of time. That's why the deputy director and I, Miss Michelle Solomon Bash, have developed a case management system where what happens is where every, we have different teams and each team, we manage or case manage their workload. So we know what matters. They have to get, what investigations they have to pursue and which direction, and we can advise them if they wish, or we can assist them, for example, when they need to get a post mortem report from the forensic science center. I can call the director sometimes and I could speak to him and say, listen, I need the post mortem report of XY because it's important to our investigation. And generally speaking, we have a good relationship. In fact, satish, we have quite important in this type of organization is to develop relationships. And I must admit that over the years, the nine years that I've been here, the relationships with all the stakeholders have improved vastly. And they understand the need and why we need the documents as soon as possible, because it gets to the investigator who can then write up the file to send it across the legal to make sure so legal, then make sure that the investigators evidence, and this all information which is important, satisfies the requirements for a police involved shooting, a larceny matter, etcetera. So we want to make sure that the evidence fits because we want to, when we, when we give a brief to the DPP, if it goes that way, or the commissioner of police, that they have nothing else to do, their work is done. It's packaged beautifully. And you could look at our summaries, if you look, if you go to our website, we publish our summaries of the last quarter of work we have sent to the DPP and cop. And you can read that and you can see the quality of work that we do and you can see the type of complaints that we receive. So once the investigator does that and legal writes up the file, it is then double checked by the deputy director and myself to make sure that everything is, no stone is left unturned. And we, as we have done, all that is possible, we could have done for that file, whether it's to close the file, whether it's to refer to the DPP or refer to the cop. And I must let you know that we close matters also, because, of course, sometimes the complainant decides not to pursue the matter because the complainant and the police officer have actually spoken about the offense, about the matter. And both of them have come to realize that the head were hot or whatever happened, and we wouldn't go further. And of course, the evidence is not there. You know, we do an independent investigation, so we are not taking sides. We are looking at the evidence objectively and we are making sure that we have, that there is evidence or there's not evidence. And if there's not evidence, we close the matter and we say, why there's not evidence to the complainant. So he understands. So we give feedback. And I would like to get feedback from the public to what we how we can improve or do better, because feedback is the only way you can improve your organization. And I like to go on these programs like you or Satish, because I want to hear from the public and I really hope Satish, we can get some time to take some calls because I love taking calls because, listen, satish, not everybody is perfect. Not every organization is perfect. But at the PCA, we try to be the best that we can be, and we try to assist the public as best as we can. There are many matters satisfy. I call the police directly and say, listen, x and y is happening. Please hear about it. And it's solved that way, so it doesn't have to be a complaint. I try to get involved like that because I don't want any record on negative record on somebody's officer's record. We're trying to help. We're trying to do it to do the best we can for the service. And we want to make the public trust the police. All right? That's how important one of our goals is. Let the public trust the police so the public can go to the police and make reports and not be afraid of any reprisals. That's our goal. [00:14:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, let's, let's take some calls. 625-2257 let's see who's there. The person was there. Try us back. 625-2257 and of course, you can send your WhatsApp messages as well, to 30, 610, 65. If you join our conversation midway. We are speaking to director of the PCA, David west. [00:14:23] Speaker A: Hello. [00:14:24] Speaker B: Good morning. [00:14:24] Speaker C: Yeah, good morning, Mister Satish. Good morning, Mister David west. [00:14:29] Speaker A: Good morning. [00:14:29] Speaker C: Years ago, I came into your office. Did you find that place? It was not where you are now. I made a complaint, a very, very serious complaint concerning two officers from anti corruption and a member of Judy Shree. I don't want to call names. They lodge an investigation. Your agent Lodge investigation. It was done properly. Satisfied all the way. I was thinking, okay, this is it, with black and white proof and all these things. Then I alerted a police officer. This man climbing up on this building. Your officer told me, this is the word. He told me. So one of your witnesses was threatened by these very same police officers that if they ever give statement, they will be locked up and charged. I said, so you didn't do anything about that? He said, the persons who are afraid to give evidence, and that's the reason my matter has clothes. And the persons are still working in the police service and in the judiciary. Very serious matters that I have, black and white paper how we go around that, in my view, they have failed me because I've been up there giving statement, evidence, everything. And then you went by a witness, my witness, and the police threatened them. But you take that as nothing and you just close the matter. I will listen off the air. Thank you. [00:16:13] Speaker A: So what you can do is, I understand what you're saying and this obviously happened before I was director and what he can do Satish, if you don't mind, I don't know how he can contact the PCA. Let him contact the PCA at, I will have to get his, I will have to get the number for him. All right, I'll get that number for him, but I will, before we leave, I will let him contact the PCA and I will speak with him. Okay Satish and we will come to a resolution how we can solve this matter. Now, the problem is that we don't have access to the witness protection program. It is really, the DPP can recommend is the only person that can recommend and of course, I think the police can recommend to the commission with this protection program who gets protected. So this is something again that we have been trying to find out, you know, on how we can, how we can become part of that umbrella, that of organizations that can recommend persons to the witness protection program. Because remember, when, when we come across a matter like that, we can't do anything about it because if somebody doesn't want to give evidence, we cannot force them to give evidence. If they've been threatened, we cannot force them to give evidence. But what we can do is let him call 226-4722 that's 226-4722 when he speaks to the operator, let them pass me through to me and I will discuss with him on the phone how we can get, try to get around this matter because it's a very serious matter and this matter is an indictable matter, the way it sounds. So it isn't, it's not closed. It's not, it's not statute barred. Okay, thank you satish but are there. [00:18:15] Speaker B: Matters that would be statute? Bye. I mean, that's an interesting question because people would need to know if something happened ten years ago. Can I still raise it now or what's the situation under the act? [00:18:26] Speaker A: Okay. Matters that have taken place over a year, the director hasn't, has an, a discussion whether or not to open it and hear the matter. Okay. So that, so that is where the matter is over a year. But generally speaking, once the complainant has a valid reason for not actioning the matter, I will, as that director, will hear the matter and open the matter. Now. There are some criminal offences that you know that are six months. Those are called summary offenses and those are like obscene language. And those smaller types of offenses, assaults. Those are six months to initiate a charge. [00:19:11] Speaker B: Let's see if we have another call. 625-2257 and of course, your WhatsApp messages. Send those to 306-1065 you spoke some time ago, earlier in the conversation about more people using these services of the PCA. Let's take this call before we do that. Hello. Good morning. [00:19:29] Speaker D: Good morning Satish and good morning. Mister West. I know that you said that the PCA is a civilian authority, but I am troubled by some matters that take place within the police service with respect to police officers. And I hope that you would listen to me for a while. Some time ago, a police officer stationed at the Shogunas police station, resident in Shogunas, Felicity, was found at an airport in London with four kilos of coke. He was convicted and is still serving time. Now the question is, how did he become a police officer? Who are the two persons that recommended him? Which are the officers that went to the neighborhood and did checks while he was a police officer? Who were his partners? Which are the departments are the working? There's no accountability in the police service as far as I'm concerned. And this is why matters like these keep popping up, because you do not know who is who. And I want to segue into the whole question of the day report and ask you if you are familiarized with it and whether or not you think that that is imperative to be implemented in order for us to get a better police service. Listen to your comments. [00:20:50] Speaker A: Can you just repeat what report was that? I didn't. I didn't get that. [00:20:52] Speaker B: He's talking about the Dlceran report where Professor Dale identified 84 item that he thought needed to be put in place for a better police service. I don't know if your jurisdiction allows you to comment on something like that. [00:21:08] Speaker A: Well, I could say that we have looked at the Dusan report and many things in the report. I can let the listener know that what happened. Many recommendations in the report that Professor Diosan had recommended. We sometimes what we do is we can give advice to the commissioner of police and it's only advice and many things he recommended there. After we do a matter, we give advice to the commissioner of police. So that is another way the commissioner of police will see that another independent body has recognized that there is a gap that needs to be closed in the police service and hopefully that will, that gap will be closed. All we can do is make recommendations and we can give advice, you know, it is up to the hierarchy, the police officers, to take us on or not, you know, I mean, there's nothing we can do in terms of the officer who is in London allegedly serving time now for the exportation of, importation of cocaine into the UK. Again, that is where officers have to say something, have to report these people, these rogue officers, to either the professional standards Bureau or the PCA or PCD police complaints division, you know, so there are mechanisms, they can do it and they can do it to us via anonymously, as I said, what happens is that you see these work officers bringing the service into disrepute by embarrassing hard working police officers, and there are many hard working police officers in the ttps, and these small group of rogue officers are bringing down the morality and the moral in the police service. So I would encourage officers and officers have been coming into the PCA to make reports about other police officers. [00:23:12] Speaker B: Let's take another call. Hello. Good morning. [00:23:15] Speaker E: Sit down, sit down. Mister West, I understand that he's recently been promoted to senior counsel, could I congratulate? [00:23:30] Speaker B: But that wasn't, that was what was that. [00:23:35] Speaker E: Office. And it has not been daunted that he could have responsibility placed on his shoulders. And as an attorney, I see it from a different perspective from Mister west, and from my perspective, by and large he's doing a fantastic job and I like to take this opportunity to compliment him and encourage him to keep up the enthusiasm and hopefully he will succeed. Mister west, this is Vashish Mirage, I. [00:24:10] Speaker A: Listen to your pen. Hi vrishish, thank you, thanks a lot. But vasish, I am not a senior counsel, I never applied for it, so I don't, I'm not. So I don't. [00:24:21] Speaker B: So yeah, as you wait for another call, you had spoken about, you know, more people using the service, and we had this discussion before, but we'll raise it again. Is it that more police officers committing infringements as a result you have more people coming to report things or what's causing the increase in participation with the public and the PCA? [00:24:49] Speaker A: Sorry satish, I believe that one reason for sure, and I think that more people have access to the police complaints authority via social media and via physically coming in, and more people understand now what we can do and the relevance of the PC. I think people understand where they can come for, I guess, justice, or to try and right a wrong that has taken place against them. I don't know if it's because there are more complaints, there are more officers breaching their regulations and the laws. But I do know that there is a greater educational push by the PC to get out there and stations like yours to understand people, to understand what we do, why we do it, how we do it, and that we are independent and satish, I could tell you that, you know, we try to do the best. Many times there are delays, there are other things that may not happen and many times. And, you know, we cannot make everybody happy, but we are trying to make persons appreciate what we do. Like a gentleman who called, who made a report a long time ago, I am going to listen to him. I hope he calls in the PCA. That's 226-4722 I hope he calls us so I can explain to him and he could come in, we can sit down and we could chat and see how best to assist him. Many times I take calls from persons. My phone goes off all on the weekends, Saturdays and Sundays, whenever. And I take the call because I understand the position I hold and I understand that I. I have to take the call and listen to the person and try to benefit and try to assist them. I don't want anybody to say that they called me, I hung up or I didn't do it, because I understand that I'm a public servant and I'm here to serve the people. Whilst I'm in this capacity and director, the police complain to authority. I can assure you that people will get a hearing, they will be heard and we will try within the legislation, we will try to solve the problems. [00:27:13] Speaker B: There are some other things that we need to discuss and probably you went into a bit of it this morning, but maybe people need to understand the process that the PCA engages in. Let's outline it for people. So I come into the PCA and I say, listen, I have an issue that I want advice on as to whether or nothing this is a matter that the PCA can look into. Walk us through the various steps until the matter is completed. [00:27:42] Speaker A: Sure. Satish. So Satish is driving down the road or Satish, okay, this is a better one. This is a more common 102:00 in the morning, police knock on your door. They say they have a search warrant to search your premises. You're sleepy, you don't know what happens. They come inside, you know, you don't see the warrant and they do a search. And after the search happens, you find your items missing from your house, you come into the PCA, you make a report and so on. So you give a report as detailed as possible to our complaint officers, okay? Our complaints officers will then send that report to our legal department. Our legal department will then look at it and. And see whether or not there are any offenses that have been broken by the police service with regard to the law or the standing orders or even their departmental orders. So we have possible criminal conduct of larceny because they stole some items belonging to you and or they haven't shown you the warrant under the law. Now, under the new Ajipa law, they must show you the warrant. Okay? So we have two breaches of the law. We then write back to you and say, Mister Mahabia, we have looked at your complaint and we find that they have been. It falls within our remit and we send you a letter giving you a letter of our investigator. Our investigator will then contact you to come in to give a full, more detailed statement where you will produce evidence. For example, if you have cctv footage, you can bring your cctv footage to show that the police came by your house. If you video recorded them while they were doing the search, you could bring that also. So any evidence you have against them to show to prove your matter, you can bring it to the investigators. Investigators will then go and investigate the matter, go to the station where the officers came from, and they will then look at the station diary extracts to see whether or not the party of officers who came in. You will then have the names of the officers in the direct extract who came. So then we can do a full investigation of what transpired on the night that they came to your house. The investigators will then do a report to the legal department. The legal department will then make sure that everything under the law that the police should have done or any breaches that took place would be in that report, and that was covered by the evidence. So, for example, if they wanted the larceny, they were sure that you had money under your bed. You had that money because, for example, you had to pay your staff on the weekend. They came in on Friday, you went to the bank on Friday, you withdrew $10,000. You have the $10,000 slip you can show us, and we will then use that as evidence that they took the $10,000 once that has happened. Now, sometimes the legal department may say, well, mister investigator, you need to go back for more evidence to cover this base. And they'll go back for the more. You need a further statement from, for example, the people who were in the house with you to corroborate and verify what you say is true. They will get the further evidence and then they will give it to the director, myself and deputy director, Ms. Michelle Sholem Bash. And we will go through the file in detail to see whether or not an offense is that legal. The way things are going, it is so terrifying. I don't think it's going to write to the director for the prosecutions outlining the evidence showing what transpired, and we give it to him and we make a recommendation with what charges we think should be laid. And then it goes to the DPP. And then he, in his wisdom, decides whether or not this matter is worth investigation, whether or not we have reached that threshold of a prima facie case against the officer. And then he will then pass it to the ttps to lay the charge. [00:31:57] Speaker B: It's pretty thorough. And I know that, of course, the PCA keeps persons up to date with all the investigation is proceeding. But as we are almost out of time, after a couple minutes again, and I know that from the information sent in, the PCA is embarking on a public education, for want of a different term, a public education campaign so that they understand their rights and so on under the PCA act. Tell us about that. Has it started? Is it going to start? What is the format of it? And so on and. [00:32:29] Speaker A: All right, so we are going to do several outreach programs and we're trying to go to Chagonas. We're looking at our venue in for shogonas, looking at a venue in south Trinidad and a venue in Port of Spain. I think we're trying to get city hall in port of Spain. So people. So once we have the dates secured, we will then send out via, you know, hopefully we will let you know. Satish and you can let your public know when. When it's. When it's happening. And we want to do an outreach program where people could come into the PCA. Sorry, come into the program where it's been held. The venue is free of charge. You have a seat and you could be watered. They'll be watered, you know, and there'll be a microphone where we will then give the deputy and myself and the investigators. We will then give outline of what we do, something similar to what I've just done today, this morning. Satish and then mainly speaking, we want to hear from the community that we visit, what are the issues with the TTPs and how can we solve them. So it will be more questions to us than us giving them a lecture. What we do, we will just give them. We will let them know what we can do and what we can do for you and how you go about doing it. But at the end of the day, we want to hear from the public what are the issues affecting the public so we can work together to solve them. Hello. [00:33:58] Speaker B: Yes, we're hearing you. I'm sure that those campaigns are very important for the obvious reason. People need to be aware of what is the jurisdiction, the mandate of the PCA, so that they can greater use the facilities that are available to them. [00:34:13] Speaker A: Sometimes importantly, Satish. We will have complaints officers and investigators there to take complaints on site so that they will be able to, so when they make their statements, they can come and then make a complaint on site. And then we can look at that complaint so they can, you know, get it done. One time. [00:34:37] Speaker B: Yeah, somebody just asking a question here. Probably a little more clarification. Good morning to you and your guest. The overhead director says citizens can make complaints to the authority anonymously. Does the law provide for a police officer or any public official to be investigated without knowing who has accused him or her? Is that how it works? [00:35:01] Speaker A: Well, what can happen is the enormous complaint. Let's say, for example, you know, they have information that Officer X is, you know, supplying drugs or doing something wrong. We can look at it, we can get the evidence sometimes without that person name. [00:35:25] Speaker B: Okay, I understand what you're saying. I do. Yeah, yeah. I understand. Is that the, the crime is something that is. You can prove it without the evidence of that person. [00:35:35] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:35:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. I understand what you're saying. This, we're gonna have to leave it this morning and there is a lot more that we need to discuss. And I'm sure as the public education campaign is rolled out and continues, we'll have more conversations. But as always, it was my pleasure speaking with you here this morning and thank you so much for sharing this information with our listeners. [00:35:55] Speaker A: Satisfy it was a pleasure once again to speak to you and your viewers. I mean, you have an intelligent public out there. You're listening and I'm happy, you know, to take calls. I'm happy to engage in the public, to listen to what issues they have. It is never a problem. [00:36:13] Speaker B: Satish as we wrap up, I must say it's to your credit because persons, we have a modus operandi in this country that when people are in specific offices of a certain stature, speaking with them as openly as you and I speak is very, very difficult for one reason or the other. And that level of accountability, if I can use that term, is absent for whatever reason. So it's kudos to you and definitely it augurs well for the public's opinion of the PCA that you avail yourself to these types of interviews and to bringing this information to the public domain. Thank you once again for being with us here this morning. [00:36:53] Speaker A: Thank you very much. Satish and you have a great day. [00:36:55] Speaker B: And that's why we dropped the curtains on our interview with PCA director David west. [00:37:00] Speaker A: You're tuned into the all new Freedom 106.516.5.