SEXTORTION

[00:00:00] Speaker A: You're tuned into the all New freedom. Formal 6.5. Formal 6.5. Our conversation this morning. We're not. We're gonna go a bit into it. What is sextortion? We're talking sextortion. And I want to touch on sexual harassment now. I have had experience working in a cruise ship. [00:00:19] Speaker B: Right. [00:00:20] Speaker C: All right. [00:00:20] Speaker A: I worked in a cruise ship for a while. And what we in Trinidad and Tobago get away with on a cruise ship. You understand what is real sexual harassment of both parties, male and female. [00:00:36] Speaker B: Yes, yes. [00:00:37] Speaker A: So before I tell you how dread it is, I would let Andisa get into the first aspect of sextortion, what it is first and foremost. [00:00:46] Speaker B: So before we even jump into the definition of sextortion itself, I think it's very interesting to touch on this topic in Trinidad and Tobago for. You kind of hinted at it already when you said that you worked on your cruise ship. So I want to clarify that we're relying on the definition from the International association of Women Judges, and I want to say it verbatim. They define it as a form of sexual exploitation and corruption when individuals in positions of authority seek to extort sexual favors in exchange for something within their power to grant or withhold. Essentially, sextortion is a favorite form of corruption where sex, as opposed to money, is the currency of the bribe. So, for instance, you may be working in an organization, you want a particular promotion, and the hint, if you give a sexual favor, whatever that sexual favor is, then you would be able to get the promotion. Or even. We know we have a migrant community in Trinidad, however, they are intercepted, wherever they are intercepted. And I'm not saying that it's happening. It's just an example. One of the protective services say, well, you know, we'd allow you to enter Trinidad, you know, if you give me the sexual benefit. So it's essentially where you're using your authority, you're abusing your power in exchange for granting this person something within their power to grant a withhold. And the reason why I wanted to highlight sextortion today is because in Trinidad and Tobago, we don't necessarily have legislation that deals directly or pointedly with the issue of sextortion. So what they would have to do is try to fit it into existing pieces of legislation which would not fit that well. And it allows the perpetrators to then operate within this gray zone and kind of, you know, avoid the consequences of their actions. [00:02:41] Speaker A: Is sextortion bordering on sexual harassment in any way it can possibly, but it's [00:02:46] Speaker B: not two completely different things. [00:02:48] Speaker A: Right? So break it down to the. To the layman, right? [00:02:52] Speaker B: So sextortion is where you're abusing your power, where you're saying, I'd give you this. I'd not give you this if you give me the sexual favors. Whereas sexual harassment, you're not necessarily promising the person something. You're probably just. I don't want to say the word, [00:03:05] Speaker A: but, you know, we ain't go get that part yet. I want the border. Yeah. So here's my thought on this, and this is me thinking, right? We say to girl A, right, you're working in the office here, like your vibes, you know, but you could get promotion. We could do this. I trying to figure out. It's. It's an agree. It could be an agreement between two consenting adults for something. [00:03:32] Speaker B: Right? But I mean, that would always. I think this be the issue where I get. I think what you're trying to say is where some persons may be using their. What they have to give to be able to get the benefits, essentially. But there are some persons who are in vulnerable positions. So, for instance, it might be, let me say, someone who. Probably below the poverty line, who needs the money or who needs a house, and someone in a position of authority then say, well, the owner way in which you are going to get this is if you give me a sexual favor. And that is when it becomes a problem that these persons are not abusing the power and the authority that they have in order to get sexual favors from persons. And I hope that by explaining this, it doesn't appear as though it only attaches to women, because based on the statistics, and there are statistics, it shows that generally the perpetrators are men. Yeah. But more than likely the victims are young boys. And in a country like Trinidad and Tobago, where we don't necessarily. We're not, you know, the most open country as it relates to the LGBTQ community, that would mean that if you are the person who experienced that as a meaning young man, you may not speak up because you may be afraid of the stigma that the other persons in your workplace might say, or if you go to the police station, the police officers might then take you seriously. And we know that as a thing. So I hope that it isn't just a pain. I mean, some persons may use sexual favors to get advantages for themselves. Yes. But then there are persons who then use the power that they have to force persons in vulnerable positions to do sexual favors for them in exchange for some type of benefit. And that's the problem. [00:05:24] Speaker A: If you're in a position to give somebody a promotion, Right. Give somebody a house. [00:05:30] Speaker B: Right. [00:05:30] Speaker A: And this person is blocking you because they, they, they. They can grant it. Yes, but without the sexual favor, more than likely you're not gonna get it. [00:05:40] Speaker B: Right? [00:05:40] Speaker A: That is when it becomes that is sex. But is sextortion a crime? You mentioned that. It's not in our law books. No, but is it a crime in Trinidad and Tobago? [00:05:50] Speaker B: So that's what I said. It does. It doesn't have a particular piece of legislation in Trinidad. And that's the whole. The International association, the International association of Women Judges, they are rallying for more legislation that deals with the issue. But in Trinidad, we have pieces of legislation that could possibly cover it. So for instance, we have the Prevention of Corruption Act. And I could state what that act says. It stretches and it says that it could be a reward or advantage whatsoever, and that could possibly be stretched to cover sexual favors. But the issue with utilizing that act to deal with the issue of sextortion is that, firstly, it only applies or is limited only to persons in public bodies, public offices, or state enterprises. So obviously, a person's person operated within the private sector wouldn't be able to get any recourse from the Prevention of Corruption Act. And also, the act not only criminalizing, criminalizes the receipt of the sexual favor, it also criminalizes the given of the corrupt advantages. So there is a possibility that the victim could then be criminalized if they go and report that this particular incident occurred, which is an issue because you want persons to feel confident enough to go and report that this happened to them and not possibly face being criminalized to themselves. [00:07:15] Speaker A: So, but why would they be. Why would they face criminalization? What could constitute they facing criminalize, criminalization for reporting sextortion? [00:07:24] Speaker B: No, so what I'm saying is under the Prevention of Corruption act, it criminalizes both the given and the receipt of the corrupt advantages. [00:07:33] Speaker A: Right? [00:07:34] Speaker B: So that particular act covers not only the person who received it, but also the persons who gave it. Because usually this particular act deals with financial bribes generally. That's what. [00:07:45] Speaker A: Right. [00:07:45] Speaker B: So that is what they're thinking, I [00:07:47] Speaker A: accept the bribe, I corrupted. So it's like, and you gave a [00:07:50] Speaker B: bribe, you are also corrupt because you gave a bribe to get. [00:07:52] Speaker A: And the person took the bribe and delivered. Right? [00:07:54] Speaker B: So this legislation was created and debated with that in mind. So it wouldn't have considered in a very sensitive topic as sextortion that possibly this person and was, you know, cursed to give this sexual favor, which is the only reason why they gave it. And if you Go to fall under this act, you could possibly run the risk of being criminalized yourself. So that's the issue. That's why there needs to be a specific piece of legislation that was debated and created with sextortion and the victims of sextortion in mind, so that it would be able to consider all the, you know, all the little things here and there. That is very specific, that particular issue. [00:08:32] Speaker A: So I like what you explained there, because it is like receiving stolen goods. You can be charged for that. [00:08:39] Speaker B: Yes, you can. [00:08:40] Speaker A: So somebody sell you a car or sell you a tv, and you know the tv, but you pay and you buy it or you receive it, you can be charged for receiving stolen items. So it's the same as sextortion. You give sexual favors for this and you're caught and it's guilty and it's proven, you're going down, too. [00:08:55] Speaker B: Yeah, but. But I'm saying that as a problem. I'm saying that. So. [00:08:59] Speaker A: All right. [00:08:59] Speaker B: Yes. [00:08:59] Speaker A: Before I go forward. Hello. Good morning. I see you've been trying to call. Good morning. [00:09:02] Speaker D: Yes, David, you know, you know, I like to open up the conversation well, quickly. So, you know, sometimes people have relationships, genuine relationships, and when it fall apart, then they start to claim otherwise. So that's one of the things that I want to comment on. And secondly, you have a lot of young women who will befriend elderly men who are more money to get money, and of course they will have relationships and so on. So I just wanted to include that into the conversation and get the comment. [00:09:33] Speaker A: I. Thank you. [00:09:34] Speaker D: Enjoy. [00:09:36] Speaker B: Yeah. So obviously there would be concerns to ensure that persons don't abuse the particular piece of legislation to their advantage for whatever occurred. So that's what I said, that there needs to be a specific piece of legislation or which we have experts coming together and saying, well, this is the problem, this is the issue. This could possibly be some of the downfalls of it, the pros and cons. So this is how we could safeguard against it. If someone makes a false report, there could possibly be a clause in the legislation that, hey, you could be charged for making false reports and things like that. So as it stands in Trinidad and Tobago, what I'm saying is that we don't have a very direct or any piece of legislation at all that that deals specifically with the issue of sextortion. So what we have to do is force it into the existing legislation that we have, like the Sexual Offenses act or the Prevention of Corruption act or the Trafficking act, to ensure that the persons who come and report crimes like this that they aren't without recourse. But until we actually deal with the issue very pointedly, it means that perpetrators could operate within the gray zones where the legislation don't cover and avoid the consequences of, of their actions. [00:10:44] Speaker A: Exactly. So now in society today it is difficult to prove sextortion, in my respected opinion. Right. It's my word against yours. But unless you can document it, record it secretly under the desk. But then could you secretly. Are you allowed to secretly record someone without their knowledge? [00:11:04] Speaker B: So even before we talk about secretly recording persons, I think the issue with any sexual offenses type crime, it is difficult to, I wouldn't say necessarily, it is difficult to prove, but it's generally a situation where it is the word of the victim against the word of the perpetrator. So as an example, if you're just dealing with a general offense of rape, for instance, one of the things that they would have is the statement of the victim. And usually for the sufficiency hearing that is enough to move forward to the actual trial. And then at the trial you're tested to determine who, who, which, which version of the. [00:11:37] Speaker A: So what are you saying? Somebody could just, you could just stand up and accuse me of sexual harassment or sex torsion. You could do that and then police arrest me, charge me and then I had to defend it in court. [00:11:50] Speaker B: Well, I mean any crime that is a situation, two things about it. We don't have any legislation dealing with the sex torture in Trinidad as yet. As the first, no. [00:11:58] Speaker A: But you now mentioned that a person [00:11:59] Speaker B: reap or agree, that's generally what. [00:12:02] Speaker A: So you could say. So somebody, somebody could give consent to sexual, to sex activities. [00:12:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:09] Speaker A: And after says rape and the man getting arrested without any question. [00:12:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:16] Speaker A: And then go to court at the defendant and the police then looking to prove the case then. [00:12:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, usually when someone makes a report, they would do tests, they would take, they would take the victim to the hospital. But if you do a switch and then take the swab from the, from the person who is accused to see if it matches and things like that. So. But generally rape is a situation where one person is accusing another person of that particular crime and it's based on whichever version of the story that, that you believe. But I would say that it isn't. That person's could just generally just be false. You're accused of rape across the board. I remember we did a matter and the person was accused of rape and he indicated that he was innocent. He was adamant that he was innocent, quite literally. And I mean we were going through it to see what exactly would be the case. He lost, I believe, his job because he was a police officer and, you know, if you have a pending matter, you'd be sent on suspension. He didn't lose it altogether. He was sent on suspension. His wife divorced him, he lost custody of his children. And he came into our office crying about the situation and he. It had the statement of the victim, but the analysis was pending. So that was. That was ongoing. And we would keep pushing for it to come because we're like, you're delaying the case. And when it came back, it didn't match. And the dpp, the director of the public prosecutor, gave a notice of discontinuance against the person and ended the matter there. Yeah. So that's usually how it goes. So it's up to you now defend yourself and say, well, I wasn't there when that person accused me of doing that particular act. [00:13:53] Speaker A: Hold on. You hear what you just say, right? This man lost his wife. [00:13:57] Speaker B: Yep. [00:13:57] Speaker A: Lost his children. [00:13:59] Speaker B: Yep. [00:13:59] Speaker A: Marriage done for something he did not do. [00:14:03] Speaker B: Yes. [00:14:05] Speaker C: Wow. [00:14:06] Speaker B: And that is the thing. That is why we have a justice system in Trinidad and Tobago sometimes. But whenever we see the headlines and I highlight these things, not to show that, you know, there are cracks in our justice system, but to show why we need a strong justice system in the first place. Because sometimes we see on social media, you'd see the report where this person is charged of this particular offense and the person received bail, you might say, because they possibly had no previous convictions, etc. They received bail. And the comments automatically go, why this person get bail? Because we automatically assume guilt, not recognizing that there is a justice system in place to ensure that this person who was charged with this gun, because anybody could go and make a report that this person is actually guilty. That's why we just don't jump from charging a person to throwing them in jail for the rest of their life. [00:14:59] Speaker A: I was a police officer. I know about that wife. But then I understand her position too, this thing. But, but, but what if he. No. You said the DNA or whatever didn't match. [00:15:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:10] Speaker A: So what I trying to get to. And my pause raised because this is really scary stuff. [00:15:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:16] Speaker A: You and a woman have sex. [00:15:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:19] Speaker A: You all copulate, and for some reason she wants you to leave. Your wife or your woman that you're with, your child, mother. Whatever she want, she want it for herself. But you refuse to leave. [00:15:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:30] Speaker A: But you did. You did have sex with her. You did engage in. And then she went and she Cried, you know what? Yeah. What going on? Rape. Yeah, they do testing it match you was you was there but you didn't rape her. It was consensual. Consensual. What happens then? [00:15:49] Speaker B: Yeah, so rape is one of the. A very sensitive area in the law that we have that you have to do whenever you're doing a matter. But the thing about it is the first step, the first step we have safeguard within our criminal justice system. The first step if someone goes and make a report it is up to the police officers to do some type of investigation. But I mean in rape it's really just the word of one person or the other. They'd generally take the person to the hospital to get tested for the doctor to determine if there was even sexual intercourse there or not, then take swabs if there are any to then match it against the other person. And it is up to the defense attorney and the person to then defend if this person is being wrongly accused. And this is why I say we always need a strong justice system. And because we see someone charged with a particular crime, especially sexual offenses crime, we automatically think that this person should burn in jail. But you never know if this person was wrongly accused. And persons often ask how because I do generally criminal law. How do you feel to be defending criminals? But the thing is, if someone is charged with a crime that does not automatically mean that they are guilty. We have a criminal justice. If when we go to court and the evidence comes out that it does in fact match there wasn't consent, the person has bruises all over their body, they were beaten, things like that, then we go down that line. But if not, if you can't prove that this was without the consent of this individual then why are we showing this person in jail? [00:17:19] Speaker A: Ah, good morning. [00:17:22] Speaker E: Good morning Davy. And good morning to council. [00:17:25] Speaker B: Good morning. [00:17:26] Speaker E: If it is a lady, say I meet David the first time I never came on the radio, I'd never see him, I never. And I met him and he invite me and Davy said I am living alone. Why it is these women are going home by you for for the first time? Why can't they go and talk in a restaurant or a cafe or something so know each other and before you go home by the person sometime it does not know as he, David rightfully tell about the story where the man lost everything and he didn't do anything. So we as women have to protect, protect ourselves and then it is we move on to any kind of relationship before relationship. Yeah, I'm speaking for woman David. I'M speaking because I know sometimes some men, as in some men want to take advantage, you know, so that is my issue about it, baby. Thank you very much. I and council. [00:18:34] Speaker A: Thank you. I love how she referred to you by counsel. I love that. Thank you very much. Yeah, boy, people balling here. No pressure. Boy. Listen. Whoa. [00:18:45] Speaker B: Yes, it is. [00:18:46] Speaker D: Good morning, baby. Okay. Considering the law with regards to this sex social thing, but clearly you could see it's you're guilty until proven innocent. [00:19:01] Speaker B: That's how it goes. And I actually know while we're having this discussion, I actually know the perfect attorney who we could have this conversation with, especially as it relates to sexual offenses. So I am definitely, if he's listening, I'm definitely going to bring him next week to protect this. [00:19:17] Speaker A: Yes, we're going through this. [00:19:18] Speaker B: Yeah, this is. And I also want to say in response to the. The woman who called previously, a woman definitely have a responsibility to ensure that they protect themselves. But we also. It's a very thin line that you work whenever you're dealing with sexual offenses, you have to ensure that you also don't blame the victim because, you know, a woman might just be out having a time and that doesn't necessarily mean that they should be, you know, sexually abused or assaulted. Yeah. So, I mean, they may have made a, let's say, a dumb decision in the moment, but I don't feel as though that the consequence of that should be sexual assault. Sexual assault, you know. [00:19:54] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:19:54] Speaker A: To parents and those of you in your cars right now, I know this topic might be taboo for you all and you're saying by maturing in the car, going to school, please understand that this is a moment for you to educate your children. Gone are the days when we treat these topics as taboo and then our vulnerable in society, like our young ones, get into adulthood not understanding their rights, the way to protect themselves, the parameters that governs their bodies, their personal space. So please don't switch your radio from this conversation. Right. If they ask you questions, please provide age appropriate answers for them. But do not treat these sexual or sextortion sexual harassment conversations as taboo and that my child should not be hearing this. Your child is primary school, could be sexually harassed and would not understand what it sounds or looks like without conversations like these. So please do not think that it's inappropriate for morning radio. This is information to educate you guys and stop with the taboo of your children can't know this. Let them know. That's why America and other first world countries are far advanced than us, because they don't hold this information. They teach you to protect yourselves very quickly. Good morning. [00:21:17] Speaker D: So right. David, bring one thing here now. A lot of youth in jail. And why innocently the partner decides to go and have a good time. They know what they're going through after they have sex and all these things somebody get to know go and cry rape. The boy making 33 years prison. And that is how the story goes. And it will never change because you know, some people making jail. [00:21:41] Speaker A: All right. [00:21:42] Speaker D: Youth men and them sign a waiver. We consent and a story boy. [00:21:46] Speaker A: Listen, I. I want to share one more pause raised because it's sad. I remember I was at Bessel street police station some years ago. The old station. [00:21:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:56] Speaker A: I had a friend, a police officer there. And I was there. We was discussing something for another. Something we was doing. And I went there. We was talking and stuff. [00:22:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:22:03] Speaker A: While there, a woman came in the station with her boyfriend who was angry, he was upset. He said something had to be done. His girlfriend was raped. [00:22:14] Speaker B: Yes. [00:22:15] Speaker A: This is the story. So he's there at the station. My God. Ting, ting, Ting. They say, okay, they get the number for the fella. The fella was known to the girl. They're known. Right. Is somebody that she previously engaged in relations with, but she had this boyfriend and she cried rape. Here the thing. This is a true story. While there, the police officers made a call to the boyfriend that he alleged perpetrator, the alleged culprit, the suspect, and informed him of what is being said and that he should volunteer himself and come to the station as soon as he can to clear this issue before officers have to come for you. And when he was told of it, the phone was on speaker in a. Because if it. The old station, in our charge room, they had a petition and they're talking. [00:23:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:01] Speaker A: Because they like to embarrass you and show you. [00:23:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:03] Speaker A: And the man is bawling, oh, my God, that is not true. And he said, no. She came to my house willingly demand. He said. The man said. He said, mom, I can't take this. I come in and the boyfriend. Yeah. But I come down the road. The police say, hush him out. The boyfriend came along and showed the boyfriend. The. The guy came. When he came. They had her and the boyfriend in a separate petition corner, right. We blocked off with petition. And there are this. And they had him in our next petition. So he wasn't seeing where they were. So they called and said, come, come, let me talk now. You know this person. So. So yes. And the man started to Explain certain things without questioning him. But she's sitting down in the next room. [00:23:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:43] Speaker A: I mean right next door. Yeah. And he's explaining she came. He said, yeah, we just play. She accustomed playfully saying no. And you know, I know she know I was watching and we get into it. But she tell me she, she reached the spot. She reached the point twice. She told me this. And he was confused. He said, but what is this? Bam. They brought the woman to face her accuser. He wanted to face his accuser and they let it happen. Only to discover she cried rape and said force your four sexual activities because her boyfriend found out. Yeah, he came looking for her and he discovered she was there and she said he forced her to come. She went to just drop off a document and he forced her. [00:24:32] Speaker B: Yeah. So it is your. [00:24:34] Speaker A: My goodness. [00:24:35] Speaker B: It is a very thin line. So we have to kind of back balance ensuring that persons aren't, you know, falsely accused or falsely convicted of offenses like this, but ensure that victims who may, you know, have experienced it, that they feel safe enough to come forward at the same time. So it is a very thin line that we have to work that we have to also balance. Because sometimes, and I've seen it when you go through social media, for instance, if the victim doesn't look a particular way because, you know, we stereotype persons and even though a woman may have been, you know, very wild before, that doesn't mean that she wasn't raped on this particular instance. So we have to, we want to ensure that we sift it through that person falsely convicted of offenses like this, but also to ensure that persons who may have experienced this, that they feel safe enough to come to come, that [00:25:26] Speaker A: they wouldn't be victimized because you could say she looked for that. [00:25:28] Speaker B: Exactly. And I've seen it on social media a lot of times where, where a person, you know, sometimes you see a young girl run away for whatever reason. And based on the type of picture that is shared, you know, the type of clothes that she. She's wearing, they automatically assume, well, she went to look for man. That that's usually the comment because she doesn't look like the victim you expect, which isn't. Which isn't. Fair to anyone. Regardless of how you look, you may you meet. That doesn't mean. Or that doesn't allow any person to sexually assault or rape you. You. So. [00:25:59] Speaker A: And let's look at it for carnival. Yeah. Women adorn themselves in tongues and half naked on the street. Does that give you the authority to go and touch them? [00:26:06] Speaker B: Exactly. So we as a society, we have some work to do in that regard and I hope that the topic isn't too heavy for some persons, but it's really just to ensure that persons are educated to know that these things exist and if they experience these things, there are persons who you can go to. Because to give Trinidad some credit, we have specialized units who deals with these. Who deals with these things, for instance. And then you'll read statements of the victims that are underage and they'll have a particular person to talk to and they'll ask the person, you know as a lie, you know, what's the truth? Can you explain to me what's a lie? And you'll see them walking through the person have to be there with a trusted adult to give that statement, etc. So we have made significant leaps in. [00:26:49] Speaker A: Well done. [00:26:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:50] Speaker A: All right, let's take a call quickly. Good morning. [00:26:52] Speaker D: Maybe. [00:26:53] Speaker A: Good morning, sir. [00:26:54] Speaker D: Morning. Morning to you and your guests. Let me. Let me relate something to you. It had this fellow walking sleep from baby, right? This is a true thing. I'm telling you. He don't work 10 o' clock and he coming home, you see this school girl from Day Bay and he decided to get. She already know. She. She going in the station and tell the police that how he had sex with Jenny rape and the holy man and lock him up. I went and take the man Bill personal and that happened. [00:27:20] Speaker C: Baby boy. [00:27:21] Speaker A: Wow. Agreed. Agreed. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. All right, I want to keep the conversation your calls limited. We have much time with Andesa this morning. [00:27:33] Speaker B: But I also want to say this. I hope that we don't overlook that men and young boys could also be perpetrators to. [00:27:41] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:27:41] Speaker B: And we need to ensure that they feel comfortable enough to go to the police stations and report that this happened. And that person wouldn't view them as, you know, less than. Because they, you know, like we in the Caribbean and in Trinidad and to be. We kind of have this culture where we feel as though men have to be tough and strong and you know, that I just have to deal with these type of things. So usually women feel safer. So sometimes something occur, you go, you talk to your friends about it because women, you know, we were kind of cultured to have these conversations where sometimes men are kind of taught to keep things to themselves and deal with it. So then you'll talk to your friend and kill. That's. That's wrong. You should go to the police station and make a report. So generally you see more reports of rape and Sexual assault by women. But that doesn't mean that men don't. [00:28:30] Speaker A: Men don't experience. [00:28:31] Speaker B: It's probably just that they don't report it. So we have to ensure that men feel safe to go to the police station and report these things or report domestic violence and get the recourse that they need. [00:28:45] Speaker A: I want to add to what you're saying very quickly. We have 15 minutes. Again, let me give you an example of a man being raped or sexually assaulted by a woman. The results that can come from this. This man may have gone to somebody's house. He may be Lyman, and he was drugged. [00:29:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:05] Speaker A: And they sexually assault this man by asserting themselves. Now, the body functions a particular way. And you would say, well, a man needs to get, you know, an erection. And this had to happen before this, but it could happen under a drug. He was induced and this thing happened. And you say, well, boy, you're supposed to smile. What if he was given a sexually transmitted disease against his will? What if he didn't get the opportunity to protect himself with a condom or so forth and you took advantage of him? That is rape. That is how you could rape a man or sodomize him or sexually abuse a man. You can't do it, you say, but how a man could. It could happen. And men, if you have ever experienced that or are going through something, please speak up. And as Andisa is saying, as council is saying, get to the police station and if they laugh, go to our next station. Make it a thing. [00:29:56] Speaker B: Yeah. And they are special, they are specialized units. So if you're not getting the records that you want from, you know, a general police station, I believe the Sinclair police station has the gender based violence unit also Bessel Street. So you could go there and you could talk to the persons who are trained, they go to courses and I, I can. I don't know if she's still the head of that unit right now. Her name is slipping me right now, but they do amazing work. Sometimes when you contact them and you let them know, well, the person went to the police station and didn't get the recourse. They send, you know, they call and they follow up and they get things done. And I also want to highlight one thing before we move on. In Trinidad, we had the Tuttlempkin decision and in that particular case, I think I probably mentioned it here before, but she was in a relationship with person, they had a child together and she was experiencing significant domestic violence over a prolonged period of time to the point that she went to the court to get protection orders against this person. The first protection order, the court said that she was only trying to fast track the custody application that she had in. So it was sent out. The second time she didn't appear, the perpetrator appeared and he said she no longer wants to pursue this. It was thrown out again. She made another and I believe the day after she went to the police station and she reported that he was abusing her again before she got home, the person killed her and killed himself. And when the police officer actually we don't go to that as yet. And from that case her mother brought an action in the court court and said that they violated her right to family etc. And from that decision the court ruled that the actors of the state have a have a positive obligation to take steps to protect the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago. So it isn't that the state can't, you know, violate your right to life, etc. They have to take positive steps. So the fact that the police officers didn't take the reports that she made seriously and the courts didn't consider her application serious seriously meant that they violated her right and they ordered her mother damages etc as a result. But the interesting part of that matter is I went to a discussion where her mother was there and her mother indicated that when the police officers came to let her know that her daughter was just killed in the streets by this man, she walked inside to tell the girl's dad who then cuffed her in her face because she was also experienced in domestic violence in her household. [00:32:29] Speaker A: I remember, yes. [00:32:31] Speaker B: So two things from that. Sometimes this thing could be a cycle that we have to break. But more importantly we have a decision. And at the time senior counsel Reginald Armour was the Attorney general and he made a decision to not appeal it, accepting that this is the position in Trinidad. So if you go to a police station and they refuse to take your report, you could possibly be entitled to some type of recourse as a result of that. Because the actors of the state, which includes the police officer, they have a positive obligation to take steps to protect the citizens of this country. [00:33:05] Speaker A: David, good morning. We went recently to give evidence in a 19 year old case of rape, previous use using a sex toy and mouth by three persons on a 14 year old over three days. The jury returned a hung verdict. You can't make. Okay, I'm gonna get some voicemail notes for you quickly. [00:33:29] Speaker C: Good morning Mr. Davey. Good morning. To the goodly attorney there, the knowledgeable attorney, I should say, I know of a particular situation that this happened about between 35, 40 years ago where this gentleman right A and this in teenage. With all teenage way of life to a boyfriend and girlfriend. Then they both end up marrying elsewhere and whatever it is. And then for some reason many years after both people have children and what have happened is that he link up back with the lady. In fact the, the, the. The fatigue was beauty and the beast they used to call the beast. And she is there. And when the husband did get to find out the dealing he was. The woman was forced to say that he, he raped beast raper and he end up because of lack of proper representation, lack of whatever it is in justice system, the fellow had to serve some like 18 years in jail. And that mash up he whole life right through. And you know the sad part, after he came back out from jail, he became a preacher man inside jail. Well after he finished, when he come from jail, it is a situation whereby she wanted to link up back with him again and he said no, he has served 18 years or 20 years, whatever. Jail time is a long time in jail, right. And he has lost his family where that was concerned. So the system has it's way in which the men are generally persecuted for things that sometimes not really true. [00:35:12] Speaker A: All right, thank you. I knew of an incident where a young man and a young woman was in a relationship unknown to her parents. One night her parents saw them together at the back of the home and confronted him. He ran. The parents shouted rape a man, rape a man. The guys in the village bar held him and gave him a girl great bodily beating. For months he was in a coma in hospital. The girl never admitted that she was in a relationship with him for almost six months. Huh. My goodness, these stories. [00:35:44] Speaker F: Morning Davy. Morning council. This is a very, very relevant topic because yes, I'm sure every one of us have heard or know of a situation with someone where they were found guilty of a situation or they were proven innocent after being locked up and so on. The long story short is that culture has changed. Society has changed. Men and women have changed. Men seem to have a hard time saying no or accepting a no when they hear it. Women sometimes in the, you know, in the scenario, you know, you're having some drinks, you're relaxing, you rock back, you're chilling with some friends and you know, subconsciously you get flirtatious or you get friendly and you're smiling, you start to touch a person, you know, on the arm, the shoulder and I mean two people intoxicated, having a good vibe. It, you know, the hormones started going a different direction and things has happened and then you regret it. So basically, you know, responsibility, act responsibly, know the consequences that can follow. Right. And I mean, you know, stay in your lane, basically, and things should be okay. [00:37:07] Speaker A: I. Good morning. I had a girlfriend that claimed to be raped in church. The guy was arrested and when investigated, they found out she went to church that day for that and only said she was raped because of guilt. So she went to church for Sheila Lena's get through and then guilty after and cry rape. Good morning. So why not have penalties for those who falsely accuse someone and waste police time? [00:37:36] Speaker B: Yeah. So I mean, you could go and make a report for false reports. And then generally, if a person feel as though the prosecution against them was malicious, then they have recourse to the court for that as well. And you could go and you could bring a. [00:37:49] Speaker A: Can a man rape his wife that he lives with? [00:37:52] Speaker B: Yes. [00:37:52] Speaker A: So they. So they're living together. They're good. But they had an argument and they fall out and he come home and he said, oh, going on with me at time with tuna. I wore this mom to you, Gill. And could he. And he forces himself on her. But they generally have a good marriage. They're not in neighbors. Do I know? No reports. Yeah, but this incident, you know, they was upset and he find shell and all this thing too long and he FX and he come home and he said, forget that and he forced his way. [00:38:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:18] Speaker A: And she could cry rape. [00:38:20] Speaker B: Yes. Previously, our legislation didn't allow for rape between married persons, but it was changed, it was amended. And a husband can rape his wife and a wife can reap her husband in our jurisdiction. [00:38:33] Speaker A: Beautiful. I wanted that to be out there. A husband could rape his wife and a wife can rape her husband. [00:38:39] Speaker B: Yes. [00:38:39] Speaker A: We're not talking about estranged relationships where, you know, they. They live in separate and he go on home by her. Now if they live in separate and she move out and they're separate and he go on there and do something or she come by him. And that is different by talking about if you live in your house with your wife or your husband and all your dress going down and all your normal. But on this one occasion she told you no, she was not in the mood and you force, force, force. And then she cried rape. [00:39:00] Speaker B: Yeah. The central issue is consent. Consent. How that consent was obtained. You know, if consent was given at all. That's essential history. It doesn't care what relationship you guys had. [00:39:11] Speaker A: And here's the next factor that what that Came up. And I want to be very clear on this. We have about two and a three coming there because we still didn't talk the harassment part. Yeah, but. But I'm happy with the calls. Somebody gives consent to relations, right. And midway they say, stop, I don't want to do this anymore. [00:39:27] Speaker B: Then the consent has been revoked. And that could possibly. [00:39:30] Speaker A: If you continue. [00:39:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:32] Speaker A: So the person tells you stop, you should stop. And, and that's simp. That is simple to the. The stand your ground legislation. You were invited into somebody's home and they're having a little bit. A little lime, and some argument broke out. And the person said, leave my house, please. It could be a friend for the longest while. The person told you, leave my house. And you decide you're not leaving. You are now trespassing. [00:39:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:40:00] Speaker C: Fact. [00:40:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:00] Speaker A: Or fiction. [00:40:01] Speaker B: Yeah. But we had to be careful with what you do to get your person out. Because I keep saying that the stand your ground legislation is very much a codification of the common law position on self defense. And there are things that you have to prove when you're trying to rely on self defense in the court. The court just not going to say, okay, well, this person was defending themselves. They're getting off scotch free. So you, you had to show that you will, number one, defending yourself. And the actions that you take to do so was proportional. So, you know, still also be very careful. [00:40:28] Speaker A: Would taping the intimacy exonerate you from a rape charge? [00:40:32] Speaker B: Well, I mean, taping could possibly be another thing in itself. If you tape someone having, you know, intercourse without. Without their consent. And I don't know if you guys could remember the hall and Lendel Simmons case some years ago where they were, you know, they were in their relationship, they were sending, you know, images to each other and taping themselves. And he shared it afterwards. And the court ruled that I was a breach of confidence. [00:41:03] Speaker A: Of course it was. [00:41:04] Speaker B: And he had to pay her damages. So just, you know, if you're con. If you're recording, you should possibly get the consent of the person for safeguard. [00:41:13] Speaker A: For safeguard. [00:41:14] Speaker B: But my question. Question is how is it determined by [00:41:17] Speaker D: a court or whoever that a rape [00:41:20] Speaker B: actually took place by a husband to his wife? How is that actually determined to know whether he's guilty or not? I asked that because simply there probably would be no witnesses to this act. So how is it determined who is lying? There's generally no witnesses to any reason. [00:41:39] Speaker A: Most times. Most times. So let's leave it there. Andissa. We have to leave it there, guys. The news time is upon us. I want to thank Andisa for coming in. We had a very, very tough topic to discuss this morning, taboo for if you want to call it that. But we're coming back next week, Friday, Godspear Live. And we go into part two to this. We probably have a guest in studio that is very learned in this or specified in this area of sextortion and sexual harassment cases. Another attorney would probably join us. But keep your questions. All right. We we have to pull the plug on justice for today. I see the importance of it. And we will be back. You're tuned into the all New Freedom Formal 6.51. 6.5.