SOE AND STATE OF AFFAIRS.

[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability the all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5 Good. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Morning to you good sir. [00:00:11] Speaker A: Good morning David. Good to be on your program. Thanks for having me. It was great seeing you on Friday out at center of Excellence. [00:00:18] Speaker B: Yes, most definitely. You know, it was really, really good to see you. I even saw Mrs. Carolyn Siposabe Chan out there at AmCham earlier last week as well. I meet some of you that I chat with most times on line and in interviews, but we never really get to meet in person. So it was really, really a great experience meeting you out there at tic. Now we are smack dead into the well four days in. I shouldn't say smack dead, but we're in it. We need we waist deep in it right now in this declared state of emergency that was recommended by our commissioner of police. In the history of commissioner of polices, I've never seen where a police commissioner recommends the government that we need to to get a state of emergency. Let's get the MSG's thoughts on this matter as it relates to 1. The current prime minister back in December knocked this previous administration for instituting a state of emergency, calling it saying things like this, you run out of ideas, you no longer have a solution. That is why you're calling that that can be a fix all. And now months later, seven months later, she has authenticated and endorsed this recommendation coming from commissioner of police. Let's get your stance and views on this at this time. [00:01:32] Speaker A: Yes, thanks. Well, the first point I want to make is that it was announced in a very unusual way. The constitution specifies and the law specifies that the president proclaims a state of emergency. But she does that on the advice of the cabinet because obviously the president does not have operational information about what is taking place in the country. The cabinet will have that information or to have that information. So the my view, excuse me, is that the announcement ought to be made by a member of the Cabinet. A senior member of the cabinet doesn't necessarily have to be the prime minister, but certainly Attorney General or the minister and now called Homeland Security responsible for national security. Omar to have made that announcement to the country because it is a constitutional political issue. Now obviously the government, the cabinet has to make that decision based upon advice coming from the senior people in our national security apparatus. A politician can just wake up in the morning and decide well we will have a sit of emergency. It must be based on something, some factual thing. And therefore the commissioner of police would be the normal person who would in a meeting with The National Security Council or whoever Prime Minister, as the case may be, would say, this is information, this is the intelligence we have. Therefore, the announcement, in my view should have come, as I said, from government first and then supported by the Commissioner of Police who would say this is the information or this is the intelligence we have. This is why we, we recommended this to the Government. Now the Commissioners of Police may have made recommendations before and the government could say, no, we're not implementing a state of emergency. We don't think that the threshold has been met in terms of the requirement for a state of emergency. Or the government may be concerned about the general rise in crime and be concerned by the fact that the police service doesn't seem to be on top of it. And in that interaction they will come up with us, which seem to have happened in the past, and say, okay, we need a state of emergency to deal with the rise of crime, or is there a particular development that suggests something more serious than just the normal run of the mill murders that happen from time to time. So the announcement was very unusual and the statement by the Commissioner of Police, supported by the Attorney General, that there was a coming together of people involved in criminal gangs and the Commissioner I think said it's now like a syndicate and he was suggesting it was almost like a terrorist development where high profile persons in judiciary, the DPP's office, you know, political persons, police, prisons, officers were targeted for assassination or that therefore is almost like a terrorist type arrangement. Which is why I said in my press conference yesterday that if that is the case, then certainly it is not only normal criminal offenses that are being considered to be or alleged to be committed or planned and so on. But this almost sounds like the Anti Terrorism law could now be utilized, assuming what the Commissioner Police has said is true. Now we have no you and I, Davy, unless you are much better placed than me, which is possibly the reality. But we don't have any evidential basis to question the intelligence that the Commissioner of Police says he has. Yes, and this is one of the concerns therefore, that we therefore have to trust the word of the Commissioner of Police on this question, that he had good intelligence that these things were being planned and were about to happen. We have to trust his word because he is supposed to be in a position to have gathered that information and so on and intelligence. But in this circumstance, and having regard to the fact that we just came out of a three month and two week state of emergency in early April or mid April, whenever that was, you know, three months afterwards, you're going back into another one. What the country needs to know is the evidence that the police have on these matters. In other words, the police will give up press release. As I did say, they arrested 58 persons. Okay, you arrested people under the state of emergency. They don't necessarily have to be charged with any offense right away and therefore they could be detained and kept out of circulation in that way. But what we want to know is that there is evidence that persons can be charged with specific offenses that the police have gotten where they said they seized guns, but, you know, they have been seizing guns constantly, which is good. But what we want to know is that was there a particular cache of weapons? You know, the Attorney General made a very unusual comment when he was asked by the one of the members of the media at this press conference on Friday. He was asked, you know, what proof do you have? And he said, well, the fact that we're standing in this building, that the building wasn't half destroyed is proof that it's working. Now, if a building of the size of the Attorney General's office was going to be significantly destroyed, according to the Attorney General, that would have required a huge amount of weaponry. Yes. And explosives or whatever. So that now has to come into evidence. You can't just make these comments off the cuff like that. I'd expect the population just to accept it. What we need to get is the evidence. And the third point that I want to make is that the last state of emergency was to deal with criminal gangs. And, you know, Mr. Benjamin was became acting Commissioner Police shortly after the state of emergency was declared because of the, you know, the situation with Mrs. Oiler Christopher, which was a very bad situation as it has turned out. But Mr. Benjamin, supported by, you know, his senior officers, Ms. Martin and others, was saying, well, you know, we are dismantling and disrupting the gangs. We have good intelligence and so on. And the murder rate, the number of people murdered went down significantly after the end of the three months compared to the previous period of 2024. And the numbers of people killed still remains about 100 less at this point in time than a comparable period a year ago, which is good. Still too many. But if we have reduced it by 100, that is still positive. But we again want to have the proof of the effectiveness of the last state of emergency. Yes, just at the end of the emergency, certain people were charged with offenses, gang related offenses and so on. And therefore we want now the courts to deal with those matters expeditiously. Were those people who are charged Coming out of the last state of emergency, was the evidence that the police had on them strong, was it good, credible evidence and so on. And if so, we need the courts to determine that matter quickly. We don't want to have five years to wait to know whether that last state of emergency was justified based upon the evidence police got. And similarly with this one, we need to have these matters pursued quickly through the court. Well, first of all, people charged and pursued quickly through the courts. Other than that, the next time something happens, the public is going to say, well, we're not sure and that is not a good place to be. [00:09:53] Speaker B: Well, I was about to ask you, I thought you, based on your final comment there, the public, we're not sure. I think we have already reached that predicament where another one life seems to be going ahead as usual. Back from 2011, I think it was when that state of emergency came into effect under the same administration, Kamala Passad Bises People's Partnership we had curfews, we had a lot of things happening. And when those things went down, one of the things we noted, the murder rate went down, but we were confined, we were confined via curfews and a lot of different things. And similar to that, during the pandemic, murder rate dropped, a lot of things dropped. Persons were confined. There was in some instances movement restricted from 10am to 5am the following day. All right, so those things happened. How effective can we, as Trinbegonians say that every time a state of emergency is called, we are actually yielding good long standing results? [00:11:03] Speaker A: Yeah, and long standing results is going to be based on persons engaged in the criminal enterprise being charged and convicted by a court and the operations that they were involved in and or led significantly disrupted. And that really is the test of it. And this is why I'm saying that, you know, we need to get that process moving beyond people being detained or arrested during a state of emergency. So evidence being presented by the police that leads to convictions, that really is a test. The proof of the pulling is in the eating, as the people would say. And you could suppress the crime as you correctly described by a state of emergency for a period. But once, And I think Mr. Benjamin made that point as commissioner police, you know, acting after the end of the state of emergency and the murder started to go up. He said, well, I'm paraphrasing, so I am probably badly. But he said, well, you know, the state of emergency has ended and so the fellows have come back out again. Yes, words to that effect, I think you heard, you may have heard a statement to that effect, right? So you could suppress the crime and criminal activity by a state of emergency for a period. But crime suppression is not solving the crime problem that we have in Trinidad today. And what we need is solving the problem of crime. And solving the problem of crime and violence is not only about policing. That is one element of it, because you have to get the guns off the street, you have to arrest and convict the people who are engaged in those criminal activities and so on. So that is one important element. I'm not by any means diminishing that, but there are two other elements that we need to address. One is the white collar crime, because money laundering is a huge part that goes into the feeding of the violent crime, the drug trade, human trafficking and the trade in arms and so on. And money laundering is part of the. Because money is what makes the thing work. If there's no profit involved in crime, then it would be as predominant as it is. So we have to deal with money laundering. And, you know, I mean, I had, I keep just next to me, my study this Sunday Express report. I know you, it's a competitive station, but I just want to put up the report and so on, because that is the fact. So this was June 29, right, less than a month ago. And the headline says, you know, the Financial intelligence unit identifies $8.9 billion in suspicious reports. And they go on to say, I mean, this was an increase in the value and the number of suspicious reports, and there were 1459 suspicious transaction or activity reports in 2024. Now, of those suspicious activity reports and transaction reports totaling that huge sum of money, there were no convictions and very few arrests. I think they just arrested six people for fraud, totaling of just over a million dollars. So we have a very weak legal infrastructure to deal with white collar crime. And I've been advocating for a long time that that Financial Intelligence Unit, which is a unit within the Ministry of Finance, that the law needs to be changed so it becomes a standalone agency with the principles appointed by the President, similar to the Police Complaints Authority and so on with and given by the law investigative powers. Now, they don't have investigative powers. All they do is receive reports from the banks, insurance companies, credit unions, jewelry shops and other businesses that are required to report something they believe to be suspicious, but they can't investigate it. They then hand over that to the police or whoever, and of course, the police don't have the resources and so on to deal with that. So we need an agency that investigates gets the evidence and then allows the police through the DPP and advice to charge people. Because until we deal with that, that is a big elephant in the room. We're not going to deal with crime. And the other key element that in terms of solving crime, the crime problem is of course, the social and economic situation. We can't have 40% or whatever the number was about children failing SCA and you know, 30% or whatever the large number was getting under 30%. And then at CSEC, CSEC results will come out in a few weeks time. We will see 40, 50% about children not getting a full five subjects with maths and English if we continue with, as we go on for 30 years. And therefore a whole set of young people are being failed by our education system and therefore have little or no opportunity for their own human development to be able to live a decent life with a decent job. The economy is not producing enough decent jobs or enabling enough people to get into business. We saw some great things at tic. [00:16:27] Speaker B: Right, wonderful. [00:16:28] Speaker A: But how many. Not everybody could do what some of those people are doing and some of them are doing it almost as a labor of love. They're not really making, you know, the business is a great business. They produce nice products, but it's not generating enough money to, you know, to sustain them. And so those things also have to be fixed. Sorry. Yeah. [00:16:48] Speaker B: And I want to also send a congrats to the tha. I spoke with members of the Tobago who business owners and entrepreneurs out in Tobago and they receive significant assistance from the THA in order to be here in Trinidad to display. So the THA comes in here is something that I want to throw at you. [00:17:06] Speaker A: Just stick up in there because I bought a few little items. [00:17:09] Speaker B: Yes, I did. [00:17:09] Speaker A: Tobago boots. [00:17:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:11] Speaker A: One lady, I bought some, some red mango, which I bought a nice shocking bag from another lady. [00:17:17] Speaker C: Lady. [00:17:17] Speaker A: And then someone who I know, she and her business partner are producing soaps and oils from sargassum seaweed. I bought something from them. [00:17:27] Speaker B: I want to big up those people out there. Now, here's something that is really resting heavily on my, on my mind this morning and I spoke about it and the inauguration of the morning rumble is the fact that this commission of police has identified not a gun or gun gangs. He says it's larger, it's a syndicate. He called it a syndicate. [00:17:47] Speaker A: Right. [00:17:47] Speaker B: And what is troubling my mind is the fact that we only identified so far a portion or a fraction of the syndicate, which is members of the prisoners behind the bars. So he was able to Contain that where? Why are we not hearing about the external factors, the external individual? Because if you have intel that people behind the bars were sending messages to people outside in the free world and you have that intelligence, you get the from the messenger. From the messenger to the, to the person receiving it. How come we in here nothing about those persons being held as well or invest they are now being held how? Somewhere while investigation is going on? Because let's let me just bring it down to the layman's terms so they understand quickly before you respond. I am behind bars, you in the free world, Mr. Abdullah, I call you and tell you to mobilize our team. We go in and kill Mr. X and Mrs. Y. Those are the people we want them interfering with me business. I call you. You and I talking back and forth, soliciting information. I bring our next man into the business in the, in the prison. You bring our next colleague outside in the free world and the four of us form this ally, this ally group and we are plotting and planning. I in jail, you outside. But they come and they move me. The intel suggests they have said that I was communicating with you, you was in agreement with me, you were planning with me, I was giving you instructions. You talk to somebody. Why are we not hearing about those external individuals being held right now for investigation? [00:19:23] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a key question. Now of course the suggestion was that the. That you continue the analogy that you who are inside you may have been the main person and therefore by dealing with you, you have kind of cut off the key communication and the key instructions coming from the key people. That's a suggestion that is being made right now. Police said that they had yesterday, I think said that it had 50 something persons. But they have not said whether those 50 odd persons who have been arrested, to use your analogy, was me. [00:20:01] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:20:01] Speaker A: Outside. [00:20:02] Speaker B: Right, exactly. [00:20:02] Speaker A: And therefore we need to know that I who am in this particular gang, in this particular area, that I was arrested. And therefore there's a great success now in breaking up what the commissioner called the Syndicate. And that is what we need to hear. But not only was I arrested for the period of the emergency, but, but that I know I'm going to be charged with specific charges that will make sure and the courts don't, because of the nature of the charges, that bail is denied, given the circumstances, because maybe I have previous convictions or previous hearings and so on, and that therefore I am not any longer free to operate as I was operating. And therefore the gangs are being dismantled, the Syndicate is being dismantled and that is what has to happen. Now, coming back to the white collar crime. You remember that the notorious Al Capone in the United States was never ever found, well, charged and found guilty of murder or extortion or any of those things or kidnapping. Whether that is, he was charged and found guilty of some kind of white collar crime. Yes. And that is how they got in. And so we, you know, I come back to the issue of white collar crime, that unless they deal with that as well, we are in trouble. Now, under this emergency powers, and I read some of the regulations, the police do have the power to go into any place, business or home and seize computers and other equipment and documents and so on. So let us see if they are going to do any of that and whether those things will then yield the evidence that is needed to really dismantle that syndicate. But time will tell. I mean, we have to give them a bit of time, which therefore means as well that the government is going to have to reconvene Parliament because, you know, Parliament is on the vacation recess at the moment. But for a state of emergency to be extended beyond an initial 14 days, it has to be the House of Representatives giving that approval for further three months. And therefore within a week or so the Parliament will have to be convened in a special session, given that it is on recess right now just to deal with this issue of the state of emergency. [00:22:26] Speaker B: All right, let me take a phone call. I have a couple more things. The Prime Minister has put a pause and not a pause now. She has rescheduled her Monday night forum, usual Monday night forum, saying that even though we're not in a state of emergency where mass gatherings and curfews are implemented, she's still cautioning in persons to take it seriously. And she even issued a warning to her ministers. And I would believe that warning came after Friday night because, you know, we was at tic and we've seen certain ministers passing through. So I believe that morning came after Friday night to her members where don't be affecting and all these things don't be seen in these large gatherings. Let's take it seriously. It's time to buckle down. That is a call. That is something being stated by the Minister, by the Prime Minister, to her Cabinet. Hello. Good morning. [00:23:15] Speaker A: Good morning, David. Good morning. [00:23:17] Speaker C: Mr. Abdullah. [00:23:18] Speaker A: Morning. [00:23:19] Speaker C: Mr. Abdullah, do you realize it has been 40 years, four decades since the Garvin Scott Commission of Inquiry into the police service? We went on and we had the Clive Dutton Commission of Inquiry. We had another one where Ramdani escaped. We had the manpower audit and up to today, the people who we elect every five years to go to the parliament and to pass legislation to redo the management structure of these security service organization has not done it. The view of the present government is that we would always have bandits in this country. We would always, always have home invasion. So how are we going to solve it? We are going to make everybody their own policeman by giving everybody a gun. A society cannot run like that. So the question that we have to ask ourselves today, when are we going to insist that the legislators of this country do the job that we elect them every five years to do, which is to bring the proper legislation to protect and to properly govern the country? [00:24:30] Speaker A: I listen to your comments. Well, for that. That's taking us, David, to a different realm, right? And I recognize, I think they call it voice that takes us into a different realm. Because I'm talking about governance and our political system generally. After. You'll have to bring me back to discuss that. Let me just simply say that, I say that the country about the country needs a revolution in mind because we are the people who are responsible for the people who are in the legislature. And so until we have a consciousness that says that we need to put people in parliament who will truly represent us and change the system of governance as well, because the institutions of state have broken down, you know, and until we change those institutions of state and reform them so that they come into the modern world, you know, it's like I did a TED talk once a couple of years ago and I said, you know, I still was using a BlackBerry at the time, right? And I was saying that so in 2019, and I would say, you know, my BlackBerry works, but I have to evolve because it no longer runs the modern apps, you know, and in the same way all motorcycle can't cut it again, right? So similarly, our institutions need to evolve and we need to change them to get good governance. But that's a, that's a conversation for a different time. [00:25:53] Speaker B: Should we be concerned as to how it affects us on the larger scale, the eyes in the Caribbean and the eyes of the international countries as to how we govern and how we are dealing with crime in Trinidad and Tobago, given the fact that just about three odd months ago we would have exited a state of emergency and now three months, almost four months later, we are back in this same pinnacle. [00:26:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean Jamaica has had many states of emergency. They may have several running right now, but the Jamaican constitution is different from ours. [00:26:28] Speaker B: But just, just, just to respond to that Quickly, while you're making that Jamaican analogy, remember Jamaica would have had state of emergencies in specific areas. [00:26:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:37] Speaker B: Provinces. [00:26:39] Speaker A: Yes. And, and that's the point I want to make, that Jamaica does not require parliamentary approval for each state of emergency and therefore it could be declared say in the parish of St. James where Montego Bay is, or, or in the Kingston and St Andrew where the capital is and so on, or some other area to deal with a specific problem of crime and violence in that area. But our constitution and laws require we get 14 days and then you have to come to Parliament for three months extension and then you could get another three months extension which then has to be approved by a special majority, I think also by the Senate, by memory serves the right. Don't hold me to that. But after that it's difficult to extend it beyond six months under special circumstances. You have to get parliamentary approval with majorities. And so the Jamaican situation is different, which is why they could declare it here and then it ends and then bring it back two weeks afterwards and so on in specific areas. So I don't know that the Jamaican situation with states of emergencies is applicable or comparable to ours. They have also had some successes in suppressing violent crime as a result of the states of emergency. But again, crime suppression is not solving the causes that lead to crime. [00:28:11] Speaker B: The thing about it is, I mean, I spoke with the chamber presidents of various chambers and they said that businesses, as usual, because there are no curfews implemented, so it's not affecting business. But as to how we look on the international stage is the one president said, I asked about advisories. He said again, they're going to give an advisory on top of advisory that they already sent out to their citizens. So we should be concerned. Concern of how we look on the international stage. It seems as though we can't seem to be able to police our country well. And we keep enacting states of emergencies and putting our country in a state of disrepute. I mean in a state of looking at us through those lenses that them fellas down there ain't getting it right. You know, a handful of miscreants terrorizing a populace of about 1.5 million. So them fellas ain't gaining it, right? [00:29:05] Speaker A: Yeah. And you know, the police wanted anti gang legislation. They got it. But it is difficult to get the kind of evidence that leads to charges under the anti gang legislation. [00:29:20] Speaker B: It is complicated. [00:29:21] Speaker A: And that's why I also raised, if you are seeing, Mr. Commissioner, that it's virtually a terrorist threat, then and not gang warfare. The last one was. Was gang warfare. Right. That one gang was going to be trying to kill out the next one and so on. And you have to try to stop that. This, he's now talking about a terror threat. Then there's the anti terrorism legislation on the books. Are you going to be able to get the evidence to use it? You know, these are the things that the country needs to be aware of. And in terms of the international image until we really are able to stop the inflow of arms, and those come from the United States. Recently a Trinidadian who has dual citizenship was convicted in the US for trans shipping. Guns. Right. And other large amounts of guns have come in, but without anybody being arrested and charged. So we need to try to deal with that. The scanners are now on the ports. Are they going to pick up anything? How are we dealing with those goods that go into bonded warehouses and therefore don't get inspected on the port because that is where a lot of the guns get found. All of this we have to get. [00:30:45] Speaker B: On top of my fine. Well, as I get set to close, we have 10 minutes, less than 10 minutes to wrap the interior. What about the kidnapped victim that is still missing? The commissioner says it's at a sensitive stage. You know, we need to be concerned about that because nine out of 10 kidnapped victims, we see it's resulting in death and not the successful, you know, rescue of these individuals. That is a major cause for concern. We didn't call an SOE for that as far as I'm concerned. And maybe you can speak briefly on this. What we are getting right now out of the SOE we was getting in a normal state. It, the guns, the arrest, we just arresting people and questioning them and letting them go, that's a normal thing. I haven't seen anything superfically special that took place specifically designed and under this soe and even in the previous one. [00:31:35] Speaker A: Yes, well, you're right. And so all these is maybe too short a time to make that judgment call. Right. So I'm going to, I'm going to say that your concern is valid. Yes. And many people have that same question in their mind. I have no doubt. Maybe so I'm prepared to give because I often don't like to rush to judgment. I like to be able to see how things unfold. But I raise the issues and flag things so that we can then begin to have some standard against which we could measure the success of an action. [00:32:15] Speaker B: Well, here's where you and I differ. You said it's early days, the Commissioner of police said he had everybody ready to run. Once he got that document in hand from the President that it's signed and authenticated, he was ready. He got it close to midnight. He mobilized everybody beforehand and they run. But where they run to the prison to move around some prisoners, that's what. [00:32:41] Speaker A: That is, that's what they did. [00:32:43] Speaker B: So you didn't really run to the wider syndicate. You run to the. Okay, they was already contained. We didn't need to run to them. We could have run to the externals and grab them because them already in a contained environment. We know where they are, we go and get them, we go move them. I don't know, I apologize, but I feel that something, something just is smelling right. Hello, good morning. Very quickly please. All right, caller, Very, very quick. Yeah, quickly, quickly. [00:33:09] Speaker A: I know, yes, every 100,000 people, 1.2% I get. It's a responsibility thing, carry a firearm. And I believe, you see this country got too much around drinkers and wife beaters. They will never get a firearm. They must never get a firearm. [00:33:24] Speaker B: Noted. And let's talk about. I don't want to digress too much into that because I felt, I feel that that doesn't make sense. Let me just pick this one very quickly. [00:33:34] Speaker D: Good morning, David. Good morning to Abdullah. Yes, David, according to the Attorney General, an increase in kidnapping also prompted the the soe. I wanted to point to the number of legislation that we have. We have the anti gang legislation, we have the terrorism legislation, we have the interception of communication legislation, especially where the commission of police tells us that cell phones will be in use to orchestrate hits on individuals operative within the syndicate. And 1 have to ask the question, and I agree with Mr. Abdullah, what are we doing with the legislations that we have in terms of convicting these individuals? In the last SOE TV, close to 4000 persons were arrested coming out from that, just around 1500 was charged. So it, it begs the question of the 86 persons there about who have been detained by the PTPs currently, how are we going to see those persons convicted? In which areas are they going to be convicted? Because I am seeing that the issuance of tickets are also in the automation of this soe. So is it that persons will be convicted on traffic offenses and not necessarily on the offenses that trigger the soe? Those are questions that we have to ask. [00:34:50] Speaker B: That ticket thing is no longer an offense, it's a violation. So there's no conviction on that. You had to pay the ticket one way or the other. But Mr. Abdullah, in closing at least we have about a minute to wrap the interview. Your thoughts? [00:35:05] Speaker A: Yeah, well, just as we've been saying, you know, we need the evidence and the last caller was correct too. We need to see that evidence being produced by the police in courts of law and persons have to be convicted by the courts. Once the evidence is good, that is the proof of the pudding. And I come back to saying we have to deal with white collar crime and we also have to deal with the education system and our economic system so that we can enable our young people to see a productive life ahead of them outside of being engaged and not being therefore involved in the criminal enterprise. And that has to happen. But that's what we could come back on that discussion about the ideas that we have to deal with that including the reform of CPEP and urp. Right. In a significant way so that those state activities don't become sources of resources, financial and other kinds of resources for the criminal enterprise. [00:36:10] Speaker B: Mr. Abdullah, I want to thank you very much for chatting with me this morning and I encourage you to to not be a stranger. We will talk on other issues. We didn't get a chance to touch on the prisons. And I will tell you straight up the bat. In 2010 an article dropped that certain prison officers were not subjected to searches when they are coming to and from their duties. Even so that they would drive onto the compound with their vehicles and because of their ranks we couldn't, they're not searched. I don't know who just go through the airport, rank whatever and do get search. I don't know. [00:36:44] Speaker A: So let me just as you talk about prison, I mean I think there was an article in the Sunday Garden yesterday about the prison and efforts to reform. And my father who's still alive, he's 98, I saw him on Friday after I left TIC. I visited him, he's 98 and he did a major commission of impeached a major commission of inquiry which was set up by Dr. Williams in the mid-70s on prison reform and it is still regarded as one of the best reports on prison reform ever. And mid-70s to now is how much? 50 years. [00:37:15] Speaker B: 50 years. [00:37:16] Speaker A: And the majority of those recommendations including shutting down the Paul's fame prison and all that 50 years on, nothing was done. [00:37:26] Speaker B: Wow. Thank you very much Mr. Abdullah. And I mean that's a milestone for your dad. 98, he's two more and he hit in a century. Hopefully he does it in good spirit and in good health. Thank you very much Mr. Abdullah. And we'll talk again soon. Have a great day. [00:37:40] Speaker A: Thanks. [00:37:42] Speaker B: And that concludes our interview this morning, wonderfully put across by the political leader of the MSJ, Mr. David Abdullah. [00:37:49] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.