Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5. Let me turn my attention and say Good morning to Ms. Carolyn Sipasad Beachan, who served as the former Energy Minister at one point in time under the People's Partnership government of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago. And we chatted once before and it's always an honor to chat with you again. Good morning and welcome to to the very heavy, heavy handed morning Rumble. How are you this morning?
I'm not hearing you. You need to unmute. Your mic is muted.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: My apologies. Are you hearing me now?
[00:00:41] Speaker A: We're hearing you now. So how are you this morning?
[00:00:43] Speaker B: Good morning to you and to all your listeners.
It's a pleasure being here this morning and thanks for having me.
[00:00:49] Speaker A: Indeed. So, well, you served as Minister of Energy under the People's Partnership in 2010, and then you served as an opposition senator. Between 2002 and 2006, you was an opposition senator. Now you do hold a master's, a bachelor's in engineering, and you worked as a former lecturer at the University of the West Indies and former chairperson of the National Petroleum Marketing Company. I felt it necessary to say those things about you this morning. Now, such nice things to say.
So we are at it. Today is day number one, Mrs. Sipasad Beachan. It's day number one in this new administration. They are all moving into their new ministries this morning.
Much of the promises, we are worried about it.
I managed to get some intel that Mrs. Basat Besesa would have, you know, attempted or has started talks with companies out there in the us, even in Guyana, and other companies.
So the Dragon deal gone.
All right, that gone. But with those talks, you know, one of the things as well, it will take a while.
She only have five years in government.
This could take between six years to eight to nine years to bring, to bear fruit. That's what I dug up and my research. Can you enlighten me as such and how you feel this morning, waking up Monday on this new day with this new government and the state of our economic affairs in Trinidad and Tobago, especially in the energy sectors.
[00:02:19] Speaker B: Well, let me first of all say, like you, it's important to wish the new government well.
As you rightly said, there are a lot of new ministers and there will be a sense of nervousness, but they will all get there in time.
One of the things that you did raise, I did note it's a very, a very large cabinet, I think it is, It's a lot of ministers.
I do want to say that one of the things that we have always maintained, and if I may start this before going off into the energy sector, is that, you know, over time, because I am a former member of the recording in progress, and I think that's you.
[00:02:57] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, I think something. Click here. Go ahead.
[00:02:59] Speaker B: Yeah. So as a member of the Congress, the people, we've always maintained that probably one of the things that should be done, but everyone has their own style of governance, is to bring as many experts that you can into the cabinet through the Senate. Because, you know, members of Parliament need to play their role as members of Parliament sometimes. And even myself, being a former member of Parliament and a minister, there are lots of conflicts between those, both rules. And there's a very important role in the Parliament as well, and it's even more important today, and that's the oversight function. And therefore members of Parliament, we should reserve enough of them to be able to perform that oversight function without being members of the executive, the cabinet. Because when you are in the cabinet, you have collective responsibility. And with the collective responsibility, it means you cannot go sometimes against the decisions of a cabinet, and sometimes those decisions conflict with the needs of your own constituency, and it conflicts with your role in oversight and holding the government accountable. So I just thought I would add that it's one of the issues we have raised several times in terms of governance to be able to ensure separation of powers, et cetera. But everybody will have their style of governance, and we hope to see all those functions being performed in terms of the energy sector. I too listened on and I did hear a number of statements being made. I think one of them being about. I think I heard that on Saturday. It was reported in the press yesterday.
Grenada, Guyana, Serena, with three countries that were mentioned.
And I did hear as well, the Dragon deal. Well, she did, you know, or our current prime minister did mention that the Dragon deal is dead. Mind you, to say, I was hopeful that having heard that, you know, the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio did reach out to our current prime minister, congratulating her.
[00:04:54] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: Looking forward, according to what was reported in the press, looking forward to further discussions and further cooperation between the two countries, one of them being energy security.
So I thought with the whole issue of energy security, that probably there would have been some discussions.
Yes. Be it that there will be some conditionalities to restarting or reactivating possible consideration for the Dragon Dark Gas Loran Mandate and Coquina Manikin. I think those three projects are still very important. And I say that in the context of, yes, we have to explore other options. I've maintained on my last appearance here that we have to diversify our supply. You cannot place all your emphasis, which is what the last administration did. They placed all their eggs in one basket and therefore was depending solely on Venezuelan caste to be able to supply this, you know, to make up the deficit in the shortfall, our current shortfall locally.
And therefore it was always important. My view was that we needed to keep our own exploration and development efforts on the front burner and ensuring that we prove up enough reserves here to complement that basket, you know, that basket of eggs, which I may save with the supply. But having said that, I think one of the things that was mentioned by our current Prime Minister, that is the Minister of Energy, will be looking at Grenada, Guyana and Suriname. Just to mention when we are speaking about Grenada. Okay, so let me start by saying in 2012 there was a report, a US Geological Society report which, you know, dealt with all the potential, potential conventional supplies of hydrocarbon. And there was, the Geological Society has reported a number of deposits throughout the Caribbean region starting as far north as the Bahamas and coming all the way south to the Guyana Suriname basin. And in there is included what is called the Tobago Trough.
And as a result of that, because of that potential which the Prime Minister alluded to in Grenada, there's a possibility that there could be cross border deposits between Trinidad, between Tobago and Grenada, not Guyana. It's called the Tobago Trough, as I mentioned. Now, in that particular case, when I was Minister of Energy in 2010, there was a delimitation treaty signed because of that potential. The delimitation treaty really established establish the maritime boundary between, you know, Trinidad and Tobago and Grenada.
For that reason, if you look at that agreement, that agreement speaks to it was by, you know, then Prime Minister Tillman. And what was stated there was in the event that there were any cross border deposits that they will develop, so there, you know, there will be discussions for unitization of those straddling reservoirs, as in the case of Laura, similar to Laura and Manatee and Coquina Mannequin. Having said that, however, in 2010, as we signed off on that agreement, let me just say, because I like to be factual, that agreement was signed one month before coming into office. It was signed in April of 2010. And Prime Minister Patrick Manning did sign off on that agreement. Then Prime Minister Patrick Manning, subsequent to that, Mr. Tillman came back to Trinidad. I think it was a couple of months after, you know, as the new government came into office, that is the people's Partnership and we did have discussions, frank discussions and we did speak to energy cooperation. So I heard the Prime Minister referring to that. And because of those discussions an agreement was also signed off for further, for further energy cooperation. The technical details, energy cooperation was also referred to in that delimitation treaty agreement.
It's usual to do that.
But the problem is, is that not every deposit that is identified in these geological surveys means that they are exploitable economically. And that's the issue that we have to be mindful of. More importantly, in terms of Grenada, Grenada has had, they have been making efforts to start exploiting exploration of their, their hydrocarbon potential.
However, they have not reached very far because they did sign off with a company called gpg. And when they did sign off, they signed off on 11 offshore blocks. In addition to that they entered in 2024 I think recently with a Nigerian company called Ocean Gate. This was JPG signed off with them in what we call up, we call them here production sharing contracts. They call them production sharing agreements. And when they signed off on that, there's been many, many issues and the current administration of Grenada have been having issues and a technical group has been established to review that contract. They have not been very transparent in terms of GPG and OceanGate. And there have been several issues in terms of. So I think things have slowed down. So there has been no development in that area. There's been no sign of any cross border. Not to say that if you do not find they don't have to be a cross border straddling reservoir, they can be like Dragon Gas and across the border field which develop, if developed it can, you know, supply gas to Trinidad and Tobago. But we'll come to that in a minute. In terms of feasibility, the reason I'm raising that point, but that was called the NCMEC2. It was capped, there was various issues with it. So it had not continued. So where that is concerned, Grenada is still a far way off. I'm not saying there's no potential, there's possible potential. But when we took a look at the timeline, you know that timeline is not anywhere soon. However, like any responsible administration, it is important to get those discussions continued and to ensure because we are always energy sector is about long term. It's not about a five year period that we are talking about. And that takes you therefore to Guyana and Suriname and with Guyana and Suriname, you know. Okay, so there was some discussions, well I wouldn't say discussions. There were some public statements by Guyana administration bar Jack Dave about gas coming to Trinidad and Tobago they have been looking at the development of their gas. They have been flaring for some time into oil. So they have been producing oil. And what they have started, they have a couple of projects on the online, about four or five projects for gas, one of them being bringing gas to shore in Guyana to start power generation. Two, to look at the possibility, like our point is industrial estate using that gas to be able to develop a petrochemical sector. So that's also on the drawing card for them. The problem you have with gas coming to Trinidad and Tobago while you explore those discussions is that you will have are we talking about a pipeline? And if we are talking about a pipeline running a pipeline from Guyana to Trinidad, we have to look at the economic feasibility of that. That's a very, you know, the cost of that is going to be very high. And when we are talking about the cost of that, we are also talking about some other geopolitical risk because such a pipeline may very well have to pass through, you know, the territorial waters of Venezuela again, which could cause you further problems now with the US in terms of getting a license to run such a pipeline. So we have to look at the technical feasibility of such a project to begin it, number one. Two, we have to look at the economic viability.
Remembering, you have to take into consideration when we are looking at the economic feasibility of such a project. And I think it was mentioned by the Guyana administration, Mr. Bhatti, that this is not going to be funded by Guyana. It's going to be funded by investors. And investors are going to look for downstream markets. What are your downstream markets? Lng, what would be your. In Trinidad? I'm talking about on the Trinidad side, if you do enter into such a project, or are you talking about going to the petrochemical sector in Trinidad and Tobago, which is very important for us because that's where all our activities are coming, our jobs, you know, jobs, jobs, jobs are what we need. Foreign exchange earnings, all of that. But if you are going to bring gas from Guyana to Trinidad to be able to supply the petrochemical sector, we have to watch the pricing because you remember, we are competing now with the United States. So there's even an added complicated factor. These factors, I would say factors including the tariffs that we are facing, most of our methanol, ammonia and all of these products go into the US market. So therefore, if we are faced with tariffs and we have to compete with those industries in the US then we must be mindful that we have to look at how we have to do something called netback pricing. What will be the net back price to the wellhead in Guyana after you have taken the cost into piping this to Trinidad and Tobago and maintaining a price to the downstream sector that will allow for it to be competitive for these products, methanol and ammonia, et cetera, to be competitive in a US Market. Given that we are talking about these new terrorist structures which Mr. Trump has put on. In addition to that, I think when the prime minister mentioned Suriname, we are talking about the Guyana Suriname visa and therefore all the gas will definitely come from that visa. Because if we look at where the gas discoveries are, they are close to that border and they are also, they have also done what is called. Well, they start off with a joint development zone, but they have also developed something like a unitization where they will be looking at those traveling reservoirs which will produce that gas coming to Trinidad, which I think is what they're looking at. If we are talking about gas coming to Trinidad from Guyana, it's those traveling reservoirs, if any are identified. But again too, that has to be developed. Unitization agreements have to be developed. And the reason why I'm making these points, look how long ago we started with grenada, that was 2010. Look how long ago we started with Laura and Manatee, 2010. And even before 2010 you would have had your delimitation treaty agreement signed off before.
So these are very, very long term projects. And if we look at what Guyana has for their timelines from some of their investors, their first gas, sorry, not even Guyana Suriname, in terms of exploring their gas potential, their first gas to show is not until 2031. So again, we have to look at a proper strategy for the energy sector. We have to look at the timelines. And would it be even better to just, you know, go back out into our own local acreage and develop some of the potential that we have made recently. As I think I mentioned this at our last, in our last interview here, I talked about the council field which has just, that's an injuriesdiction unitization that took place that as well started many years ago, but that is on the cards now. So we may want to accelerate those projects, do what we can to accelerate, do those projects. Mainly there. I do. The last administration was against, you know, the fiscal incentives, but probably that's what we need if we are going to sustain that downstream sector, whether it's LNG or the petrochemical sector.
[00:16:42] Speaker A: Well, that leads me, I mean, I had a lot of questions and you answered it all before I can even ask. There's no comment from no connection or no conversation happening between Trinidad and Tobago and Guyana. One reporter in Grenada, sorry. Is saying that they haven't heard from the government yet, even though they would have taken note that she did mention their country or their island. They haven't heard anything as yet. Nothing said so far. So there's no comment from our government on what the prime minister of Transbago said regarding this oil and gas. However did we did the current administration in scrapping that Dragon Gas deal in favor of what is happening with the Trump administration? Because that seems to be the closest field to us, just a pipeline. The infrastructure is already there. It's just a few yards of pipe to get to that field and then that gas will soon be in our waters and straight down to our refineries. So I'm asking did we did Ms. Prasad Bisesa when she scrapped that deal for these futuristic deals on the table, these futuristic energy deals, and that's one and two, how are we going to sustain ourselves if These deals are 10, 15 years off in terms of being fruitful?
[00:17:55] Speaker B: That's the point I was raising. No, I don't think she, I don't, I don't think she's corrupt.
I didn't get that impression. I think she's saying it's dead because I thought, well, I suppose we have to wait. I don't think, because I did hear during the campaign trail that they did intend to reopen discussions on Dragon Gas. Coquina Mannequin and Lauren Manatee, probably when she's looking at the prospects of it, it's probably not looking very positive. Positive because, you know, to get those OFAC license renewed is going to be very difficult given the current state of play for Venezuela. The Maduro administration.
[00:18:31] Speaker A: Well, just to chime in on what you're saying, when I look at the geopolitical landscape, Marc Rubio did reach out to the current prime minister and congratulated her and said he's looking forward to a great relationship and fostering beautiful ties. Now, the reason for that, I mean, during her campaign and very early in the onset of she was definitely against it, which lined up really well with the Trump administration thoughts and ideologies as it relates to the Maduro administration.
So with that being said, she has toed the line really well with the US on the US Side of things. But then when we look at home, one has to wonder whether the former prime minister Stewart Young was right when he went in there in Jamaica and sought to get Marc Rubio and the Trump administration to Understand the economic challenges we are facing in this part of the world when it relates to this natural gas and oil that is so dire for us in Trinidad to sustain us.
Did we in, as you say, as we said, scrapping this Dragon Gas deal dead? Was the Prime Minister, the former pm, onto something?
[00:19:35] Speaker B: Well, I don't think, you know, let me make it. I am not getting the impression that she, that the current Prime Minister scrapped the deal. The Dragon Gas. I probably think what she is referring to is the possibility of it being very low at this point in time given the current state of play between the US and it has something to do with, you know, we have to understand something. It has something to do with Trinidad and Tobago. This had a lot to do with the US and the Maduro administration in Venezuela. The reason for that is that you don't want any monies that you are generating. Remember, we would be paying royalties to the Maduro administration once you start extracting gas. Now, I mean, I want to make the point you are saying, I want to endorse what you're saying in that that is an across the border field, it's totally in Venezuelan waters and you know, the reason why it is so it is economically feasible is because, you know of the, because you have existing infrastructure on our side of the border between, you know, on the north coast. I'm talking about the northern part where we have the north coast marine area and we already had a lot of infrastructure there, you know, existing. That will take, you know, because at one point in time BP will not be sorry, BG British Gas operated which is now Shell operating that set of acreage and that is what support supplied LNG train one, in fact. And so therefore you have that pipeline coming from the NCME straight into Atlantic LNG and it's passing close to the petrochemical sector as well, which you can feed into. So what I'm saying is that, you know, the connection, you know, the infrastructure that had to be added, the investment was much lower. It would be minimal compared to what you would have to do for Guyana and bring in gas to Trinidad and Tobago. So therefore that is why it was an economically viable alternative. Plus that field has already been defined, you know, it has been delineated. Those reservoirs, that reservoir in the case of Grenada, we have none, we have no, you know, it has not been properly explored. We have not defined the reservoir or anything of that sort so that we can move to a development phase. So this was ready for development phase. But in the development phase, as you produce, you have to remember, royalties will be going to the government of the Maduro government. And notwithstanding that, you know, and I want to put on the table the expropriation, the expropriation issue with ConocoPhillip. And although we have recognized that arbitral award here in Trinidad and Tobago under francisad that judgment. Right, it has been recognized and therefore there's a lien. But it will be on the. You know, P. You know, there's a distinction between pirates and the government. So I think this is one of the reasons that, you know, for the whole revocation of the license because they do not want funding going to the government. How are you going to renegotiate the Dragon Gas with this issue on the table? I mean, you know, let's face it, that's why the possibility doesn't seem very high in terms of the prospect of it.
[00:22:42] Speaker A: But that OFAC license would have been granted to companies emerging from the U.S.
is it possible? Just saying, hypothetically speaking, can we now look at companies. We went to Africa. You mentioned Africa a few moments ago. As it relates to Guyana, I think it was Grenada as well. Grenada, Grenada Ocean. Right. Is it possible that we can now look at other continents on the planet and get companies from there to come in and get those agreement deals in place with us? Because those companies that was carded to deal with this exploration and this, this, this Dragon Gas, they would have been emanated from the US and they needed license and stuff like that in order to function. Could we look in other areas and if we do so, what would that mean for our relationship with the U.S. administration?
[00:23:30] Speaker B: But the SOFA license Imrawit will affect National Gas Company as well. NGC.
[00:23:37] Speaker A: Right.
[00:23:37] Speaker B: And the last time we spoke about this, and even some of those foreign companies you're talking about whether they are European companies, English companies, Australia, you know, we could talk about, you know, companies such as ELF, etc. All of these companies because of. So let's, let's start over. Let's, let's begin again. You're talking about a multinational corporation that has the financial where it all and the technical where it all. That's the important issue because when we were discussing the refinery, we were discussing those issues. When you're talking about a company that has the financial where and the technical where to be able to carry through on projects like this. These are the companies that we have to work with. These companies are multinational. They do not operate only in their home country. They have protection through bilateral investment treaties with other countries to protect them. So those Bilateral investment treaties will take place between, let's say Trinidad and Tobago and the home country. But the companies themselves also have, have those home country bilateral investment treaties will also extend to the U.S. noted. And the U.S. being the center at this point in time, in terms of activity, in terms of the financial systems, I think we spoke a lot about last time, the whole financial system, the consequences of when you have that, when you operate in breach of that OFAC lifestyle in breach of those, you know, the sanctions, the implications of sanctions on those companies could cripple them and that could cripple their whole international operation. You know, so that is one of the things that, you know, we can speak to because of, you know, the whole banking system, etc. The financial systems, the whole syndicate of loans, etc. Debt financing, equity financing, all these things will be affected and therefore, you know, these issues. So that is why those companies will not take the risk. So looking good, the companies who are willing to take the risk is because they're operating very isolated and once they are isolated, there's a high correlation. They do not have the financial where it, or we do not have the technology or the technical where it will carry out projects like this.
[00:25:39] Speaker A: And I'm very happy that we were able to ask that particular question because that would have cleared up some of the WhatsApp that I got this morning in terms of can we look afield in other areas? And I thought to myself that those same companies that we were talking about, they do operate out of the US as well. And, and they have interests, bilateral interests across the globe. So to take a risk and come to Trinidad to assist Trinidadians and to be Gonians on this Dragon Gas deal is running a heavy risk that none of us would take, given the fact that we rely heavily, I mean, this is just one small nation as opposed to the multi faceted other nations across the globe that they do business with. So that clears it up. Are we far?
[00:26:20] Speaker B: But I want to say it, I don't want this to say we should just, it should not just be us cropping, there must always be hope. Because I was hopeful when I heard that when one of the issues that was, you know, that they spoke to was energy security. So I thought it was a reopening, it was an opportunity, it was a hopeful opportunity to reopen the discussions on all those fields. Dragon Gas, the manatee cooking and mannequin and blur and manatee.
[00:26:45] Speaker A: No, the thing about it is I agree with you on that. I felt the same sense and many of the audience that listened to freedom thought so as well. Now, the thing for me is based on the startling realities of what you have just painted for us here this morning, one has to ask the question, can this government sustain on those promises? I mean, what other areas can we look to in terms of diversification of our economy and sustainability of it in the sense that how are we going to maintain these things? You know, your thoughts on that. I mean, as a former energy minister, you speak well on the energy sector. But are there other areas in this, in our state of economy that we can look to in the interim?
Because some of these deals that we talk to in terms of Grenada. Grenada is still on the books there, but they haven't reached anywhere. Guyana is still further afield. And in addition to that, you mentioned something that I thought about coming through Venezuelan waters that might be as the crow flies. All right, that is as the crow fly approach. But if you had to take. Right. So if you had to take another approach and bend pipe around that it's more infrastructure and more cost factor lengthy, you know, as opposed to going as the crow flies, straight across. So what other ways we can look at to diversify our economy and sustain it?
[00:27:55] Speaker B: Well, I mean, you know, this has been an ongoing topic for so long. It is amazing. I think we have to become. We. You know, I could tell you manufacturing, I could tell you tourism, I could tell you agriculture. We have to get food security in this country. But I think, you know, one of the issues is that we have to be able to encourage, you know, and I keep hearing incentives, incentives, incentives. But for some reason the incentives have not worked. Is it that we need to redesign? I think, you know, personally, I feel that one of the problems is that probably we need to break away a bit from the past and look at the new way of doing business in the 21st century. Trinidad and Tobago needs a new vision that will place us on the, in the global, you know, because there's a whole area for the exposure, support of services, the service sector, because we have a lot of human, what I would say the human capital is very high because of the very high education, the potential, you know, et cetera. And I think we are not exploiting that enough in terms of exporting our services. That's one, two. We have to look at tourism and, you know, whether it's tourism or agriculture, we have to look at how we do business in those sectors. We have to break away from the old traditional conventional ways of doing business. We have to use more technology, we have to use more Technology in our marketing, for export, in our manufacturing sector. Are they using 3D, for example, in the manufacturing sector. So, you know, all these issues. Sometimes even when I look at manufacturing, I'm seeing so many opportunities. A simple one. Let me just raise this before time runs a simpler one that bothers me every single day. So, by the way, I'm also a practicing lawyer. Okay. Now, I was courted about five years ago. So currently, you know, I'm due to going to court just now.
My issue is if you look at the environment, the environment has a number of opportunities that we are not capitalizing in for new jobs. You know, even as we look at recycling, it bugs me every day when I collect all these plastic bottles to try and find a place to, to put them. I keep collecting right here in my own home. You know, I was president of the Girl Guides Association. We had a big project with our girls. In terms of being one of the countries that was looking at climate change and how we advocate for climate change, that's one area. But I want to come back to even the energy sector further downstream, there are many, many opportunities. What about the renewable energy industry? We've spoken so many times about that. When we were there in 2010, you know, I noticed this in the PNM manifesto and I had to speak to it because they talked about, you know, the whole renewable energy sector. Like if it was a new sector. We had already certified so many companies as energy service operators who can do business for, you know, and give them the tax incentives to do so. But you know what those companies ended up doing? Having to export their services because Trinidad people never picked it up because we have to look at our electricity pricing to be able to encourage. We launched what was quality test program where you could feed the grid with renewable energy, you know, from your home. All the excess that you may generate from a solar panel or small turbine in your home can, you know, feed the grid. These are issues that we have to look at for the future and stop looking to the conventional past, break away and start placing ourselves where we should be in the global scale. We have to look at a quantum leap. How are we going to move forward, you know, with, you know, a quantum leap to get us back ahead of the curve.
[00:31:30] Speaker A: And I mean, we could not have explained that any better than what you said. A couple of quick, quick questions I want to get to you very quickly. One, to clear the issue on the refinery. Now, she did promise to restart the refinery. How lucrative and sustainable would that be? I mean, we understand it bled the economy for many years.
I alluded it to mismanagement and not holding managers and senior execs accountable. I also attributed that refinery bleeding the economy by when they get those monies, various governments would have rediversed those monies into different. Redirected, sorry, those monies into different areas rather than use it back on the refinery, on the plant. I did understand in some research that 150,000 barrels per day we need to put push out as opposed to barely making 45 to 50 barrels per day.
How sustainable and how real is this possibility of restarting the oil refinery in Trinidad? Very quickly please.
[00:32:27] Speaker B: First of all, I was one of those who marched with the union with the closure of Petrochron because I disagreed. I thought the narrative was a false narrative.
There was no issue of I. Yes, there was a book loss for Petrofrin and that book loss is a non cash loss. It had to do with the re what we call the lifespan of those plans being the auditors taking a decision to shorten the lifespan. It was a one time expense plus some issues with their pension plan. In terms of what was being. When you redefine the obligatory. The obligations of the financial obligations of the pension plan. But at no point, point in time was there a cash tax petrotrend the refinery. They paid all their bills in my humble view. They paid the debt, they were honoring the debt obligations, they were generating foreign exchange, they were supplying the country, they were paying their taxes. Right. So I don't understand where that narrative ever came from. I know it kept saying that and if you we could go back on that discussion. But we don't have time.
[00:33:29] Speaker A: I know we don't have time. And you have just revealed some startling information there. So the government, the previous administration, in your respected opinion did by closing down the Petrine refinery.
[00:33:40] Speaker B: They did.
Of course they did. And I maintained that several times. I think probably once on your show here I did it on, you know, your sister station CNC tree several times. But the issue is, I'm not saying that there were not issues with management.
There were efficiency issues, there were many areas that needed improvement, skill sets, you know, cost effectiveness, all of that to remain competitive globally. I agree with all those statements. Plus we had access to what we call the premium market in the region. I will always maintain that position and I could go back in that however. And we did have the recommendations. The issue was why did we not implement those recommendations? We didn't need to shut down a company called Petrotrend. More importantly, Petrotrend was not. Its like the, you know, the whole issue with Karani Petrochin was not just a company making profits. Petrochemically was almost like an economy. You had to look at the economic impact of the closure of Petrotrend on the economy for South Trinidad, on service industries, on the skills development, on the employment issues and so on. Now that you talk about.
[00:34:48] Speaker A: But would it have cost us more, Would it have cost us more money to keep the, to maintain it? I'm just asking that very quickly. I mean, and I.
[00:34:55] Speaker B: It's going to cost us more now to reopen a whole lot more because we have not. You have meant you've not bought a plan for six years now. Every year that passes, the cost to reopen that is going to increase.
Because you are talking about having to recertify. You have to. Every vessel has to be reinspected, every pipeline has to be reinspected. Every. You know, I am not. Because it's been dormant and so on.
[00:35:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:21] Speaker B: You know, so I. Anybody coming into Trinidad and Tobago to reopen Petrochron has to be prepared to put out, you know, more than a billion at first. We started after one year it would be a billion and went up to 2 billion. It will keep going on like that to keep the environmental standards.
[00:35:36] Speaker A: But having said that, sorry, I know I'm almost out of time and I want to get this final question in. Should we, should we look at opportunities now to restart that refinery as quickly as possible? Should we do it?
[00:35:47] Speaker B: Even if we still should? But again too, it depends on who the investors are. You cannot be bringing investors without the financial capacity and without the technical capacity to reopen that refinement.
[00:36:01] Speaker A: Noted.
[00:36:01] Speaker B: And you also have to ensure that they're bringing markets with them. And I want to say this, there's another. I want to debunk this myth as well that you have to have equity crude to supply that refinery. Some of the biggest refineries in the world, I'll take example, Reliance does not have equity crude. They depend on imported crude from other countries, including Russian crude, to be able to maintain one of their largest refineries. So it's not about the equity crude. It is about bringing the markets that you have that you are able to supply notwithstanding as well. I want to say you have a local market here and you have a regional market which was a premium market. I'm not sure how available that market as again, that six years has passed. If they have gone into long term contracts and we may have lost that market again, all of this is what we have to detail. I thought those details would have come out through the last assessment, but I didn't really.
[00:36:48] Speaker A: Well, we will see. We still have time with this government. They have now started, so we'll see how that goes. And one last thing off the cuff here. I just need to ask. When we look at the ministers, right, we understand that the prime minister taken on a portfolio in a various ministry would simply mean that the higher salary is paid to the individual. But when you have a minister in the ministry of. Just asking if you have that information, is it that they're getting a ministerial pay or is it something less because you are a minister in the ministry of. Or are you a minister and receiving a ministerial salary?
[00:37:16] Speaker B: No, I think my understanding it's a. It's a lower salary.
[00:37:21] Speaker A: It's a lower salary salary than minister. Not confirmed.
[00:37:26] Speaker B: Let me not confirm.
[00:37:27] Speaker A: All right, so we. Yeah, all right, thank you very much.
[00:37:29] Speaker B: The parliamentary secretaries and ministers in are not cabinet ministers, right. So they would definitely. Cabinet ministers will attract a higher salary. It's even different from a member of Parliament if you were just a member of Parliament.
[00:37:41] Speaker A: Well, that, that is understood. But then you have, you have a prime minister like the former prime minister would have, would have gotten to the ascension of prime Minister but still held on to the post of minister of Energies and. And so forth. So I'm saying, you know, we understand that he would have gotten the, the prime minister's salary, but he had the right.
[00:37:57] Speaker B: But the minister's salary, he's not going to get an additional minister for the private.
[00:38:02] Speaker A: So I'm asking, I am asking if you have a minister in the Ministry of Agri, a minister of Agriculture and a minister in the Ministry of Agriculture. That's two ministers being paid for one job. Is it that the minister in the Ministry of does that minister receive a salary on par with the minister of. So there is a difference.
So it's.
[00:38:24] Speaker B: There's a difference.
[00:38:25] Speaker A: There's a difference. So it's actually there's a difference between.
[00:38:27] Speaker B: A minister of and the minister in the ministry.
[00:38:31] Speaker A: Right. So the salaries are also different as far as you know.
[00:38:34] Speaker B: Yeah. All right.
[00:38:35] Speaker A: So thank you.
[00:38:35] Speaker B: The minister in is not a cabinet minister.
The minister in the ministry is a minister. Yes, but you know, not a cabinet minister. They don't attend cabinet meetings.
[00:38:45] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:38:45] Speaker B: That's for example, they don't bring cabinet notes. And you would even find sometimes that when you had to act, let's say a minister is out of the country, another cabinet minister will act, not the minister in the ministry.
[00:38:58] Speaker A: Noted. Thank you very much, Ms. Carolyn Sipasadbaetion. Always a pleasure to chat with you. A wealth of information and you have retained well over the years in terms of even remembering when you sat at the helm of that ministry. Thank you again. And I do look forward to chatting with you again in the not too distant future. Good luck in court this morning. Have a good one.
[00:39:15] Speaker B: And all the best to you and your listeners. God bless. And you know, let's wish the incoming government all the best for the sake of our country.
[00:39:22] Speaker A: Indeed. So thank you very much. Have a good one. All right. Bye bye.
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