Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new talk radio Freedom 106.5.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Good morning. Good morning.
[00:00:10] Speaker C: Good morning. Good morning. Welcome to Freedom 106.5 FM. How are you this morning?
[00:00:15] Speaker B: I'm good. Good. Thank you for having me on.
[00:00:18] Speaker C: Excellent. You know, a lot is happening on the crime front here in Trinidad and Tobago. Now as we, as we get into this conversation very quickly this morning, please introduce, introduce yourself to our listeners. I would have made mention to you as Miss Leela Ramdine, the consultant of Catholic Commission for Social justice and Archdiocese, Ministry of Migrants and Refugees. Exactly what does that mean?
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Okay, so I used to be the chair. I lived over 30 years in England. I came back home and in 2003, the then archbishop, we had a synod and the catholic community said they wanted a social justice commission. And so I was appointed chair. We got together quite a few people who wanted to support. And since then we've been working, you know, diligently to address some of the social justice issues in Trinidad and Tobago. And then in 2018, with the migrant situation across the world, Pope Francis asked every archdiocese in the world to establish a ministry for migrants and refugees. And, you know, we have over 30 people from over 30 countries in our country seeking asylum or refuge. And so that was placed. The archdiocese Ministry for Migrants and Refugees was placed within CCSJ. I for over 13 years I was a chair and then I had a stroke. So I'm now a consultant, but I'm alive and kicking. So, you know, God still has work for me to do. I'm also an attorney at law and on a number of other boards, you know, like creative foundation for justice. We run forms for socially, you know, well, street children. And there's a foundation called to Action Social Change for foundation with pastor dotting the chairs, Shaliza Canali and people from different faith communities. So wherever I'm calling, I go.
[00:02:19] Speaker C: We're here to serve a true patriots and people person. Thank you so much for joining us this morning. You know, when we look at the migrants coming into our country, the influx of it, the prime minister has made it very clear that they are to be welcomed. We no longer looking at them as, you know, just migrants trying to come here illegally or illegal immigrants. You know, they have, they are getting legal status. And a legal invitation was extended, especially with the passing of beryl that hit various the islands up. Is it eastward from us? Northward from us?
[00:03:01] Speaker B: Yeah, well, Grenada and St. Vincent, the Grenadines were really hit hard.
[00:03:05] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:03:05] Speaker B: And that's why he's rightly saying, and I applaud him for that, but it needs careful planning. He said there are deep familial ties between our islands and Trina Tobago. And so he's offered school age children from the devastated zones to be allowed into Trinidad and Tobago if they have family here who may wish to house them during the school holiday period, July, August. So it's not everybody come like that. You must have family here, and the family must want to. To have you to be able to house you. And that's the challenge we have.
Who is going to check whether, you know, the family have enough room and funds? Because it doesn't seem as though there'll be any funds. Give many grants to those families. Who is going to buy them extra beds, bedding, etcetera, food, transportation? Those are issues. I mean, the whole range of issues that really, um, worried me, you know, when. When I heard it at first, but talking to my nephew in London, because I leave today for London for a while, um, and my nephew said, leela, what's wrong with you? Bob Marley's one love song should resonate with you.
[00:04:22] Speaker C: It's true.
[00:04:23] Speaker B: You know, it took a little fella to remind me of that. So I applaud our prime minister for that initiative. But, you know, there's a woman called, um, Carolyn Cousley. She's written a book, impacts of natural disasters on children. She's the associate vice president for economics and policy of environmental defense fund. And she rightly says that we have to look at the impact, mental, physical impact on children in such circumstances. So, for instance, relatives here are likely to be working. Who will supervise the school age children while they're at work? Many of them, as she has said, will fate, not talking about this issue, but generally, many of them will be vulnerable. They rely on caregivers who may be unprepared to overwhelm themselves. So who are the caregivers? If these families are working? And very young children, she said, may not be able to communicate necessary information if they become separated from their caregivers and if their parents are not accompanying them, who is going to keep. Ensure they keep in touch with them?
Do they have WhatsApp? Is there money for phone call? And who will monitor their well being and progress as to how they are settling in? Many of them will need psychosocial support, counseling. I haven't heard anything about things like that. Do we have enough social workers to pay a visit to DC? We are living in a time of rampant crime. There's human trafficking, there's sexual abuse, there's all sorts of terrible things. Recruitment by gangs. You know, who is going to make sure that some the worst of the worst in our country, that these children, school age children do not fall prey to things that these are real things that we have to address if we're planning. And then some of them may have family in Tobago. There shouldn't be a separate Trinidad plan and a Tobago plan in my view. There should be a national plan and we involve the. The. In planning for that. What about, you know, the PTSD? That's, you know, the trauma that children. Psychological disorder that many family, children in particular, as Carolyn says, children appear to be more prone to PTSD than adults following natural disasters. Who is going to care whether these children have PTSD or not and to look after them and who will meet the cost if they need therapy or medical treatment? So I'm saying I welcome the initiative, but let's be clear. It's not. We do things by Vaps. We have to have a plan.
[00:07:15] Speaker C: Yeah, you know, I hear you loud and clear where that is concerned and you raise some very, very valid points in terms of financing.
Just today we're looking at our dailies and we are seeing in our guardian that the $1,000 grant for our families that have an earning capacity of less or 10,000 or less to help out with school grants. You know, so we are trying to assist our own citizens in this country. Some persons will not get through. And now you are talking about bringing in an influx of other children from across the CARICOM nations to Trinidad and Tobago to be housed which is going to put as you mentioned, food, clothing, bedding. They are basically coming here hand in pocket.
And the thing about it is this.
Who is paying these airfares for them to get to Trinidad and Tobago? We understand that regional travel is very, very expensive. Before I make this point, let me just take this call very quickly. Good morning.
[00:08:17] Speaker D: I'm more than your guest. My guess, yes, that was saying that the rotor hell is paved with good intentions.
While the just some idea one of good.
There's. There's no plan for it.
There's absolutely. It was just a statement made by Vaps at the. At the time that for coming from the prime minister he has. This country has nothing in place for such a venture like that.
Children and this country touching and for basic things, school supplies that have children who bright but the parents can afford to buy the books and whatnot. I look, listen, what I mean if you could help somebody help them, but if your own citizen suffering help your own people first time before you go outside.
[00:09:18] Speaker C: Thank you. I don't know if you heard the call.
[00:09:21] Speaker B: No.
[00:09:21] Speaker C: All right. So what was being said by that caller is that we should help our own citizens first before we extend a hand to others. We have students and children in this country that are suffering and they can't even afford books. I mean, the grant is there. That is already. The first phase is going to be rolled out today. Parents and guardians will be contacted by the ministry to find out about it. But he says it's a very, very serious call. The government just talked and said, okay, let's do this. But there was no plans afoot. Now, when it comes to natural disasters, we cannot really put a handle as to when it will occur and if it will happen, we don't know. We have had geologists tell us that we are due for an earthquake because past data would have shown that earthquakes happen between this time to this time, to this time. So we do for one, you will hear talks like that. You hear the Met office will tell us, we are warnings issued about a very animated and active hurricane season, but yet still, burial is still causing anarchy and chaos. We don't know if all the other storms, what trajectory they have. So the plan for one in advance could be a bit far fetched.
Banks telling you, as an entrepreneur opening a new business, can you give me a trajectory of the finance of your financials? You can only put out what in your mind might be realistic as to what you will earn. But you don't know if you're going to earn that, but they ask in for that in order to give you a loan or to help you with your business. So to say that we're not prepared, you know?
[00:11:01] Speaker B: Yes, yeah. No. But at the end of the day, the golden rule applies to do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. And if we, God forbid, if we face any disaster, I would hope that other islands would open their doors to us. In 2017, when Hurricane Maria devastated Dominica, our prime minister opened our doors. This is not the first time we do.
[00:11:26] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:11:27] Speaker B: So a golden rule, in my view, it's on a humanitarian basis that we're doing this. You know, in Korea, coup, if you saw people huddling under jetty, all the houses destroyed, 98% destroyed. They have a population of over 9000 and Union island has about 3000. Food is scarce, electricity and running water almost non existent. There's concern of disease spreading because of lack of sanitation, fresh water and medical facilities. Good God. We have to have a heart, you know, but it has to be planned properly and as you said, who is going to pay for their affairs?
[00:12:09] Speaker C: Well, the thing about it is, we recognize that regional travel, as I said to you earlier a few moments ago, is very expensive. The landing taxes alone takes up almost 55% of the ticket cost. The landing taxes across curriculum, it's. It's astronomical. Because the monies that we will pay from Trinidad and Tobago to land in Barbados, if you take that same money, you could land in Miami with it.
[00:12:37] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah.
[00:12:38] Speaker C: And even, and sometimes a little less if you're jumping from here to Jamaica, which on a direct flight could be just about two and a half to 3 hours away, if so much the money that you will pay to reach Jamaica, you can use a part of that and you can fly from here to Miami because, you know, so.
[00:12:56] Speaker B: And where the families having one or two, two or three children, how you get. Where they get all that money to.
[00:13:01] Speaker C: Send all of them to Trinidad? So. Yes, but it's. No, here's the thing. Is it our responsibility as to worry about how they're going to get here, rather than just, you know, what? If you can make it or if you. If there's a way, um, we open our doors. However you may. Now, immigration, I believe, will have to prove that. I mean, if you're coming into Trinidad from. From abroad, from one of these devastated islands, Mister Amdine, and you're getting into Trinidad and Tobago, what I'm looking. What I'm thinking when you touch into Piaco International, you'll have to verify where you're going, who is keeping you. You can't go to a hotel. You can't go to a guest house. So where?
[00:13:41] Speaker B: Yes, but remember that the prime minister said, the minister of national security has been informed. He has informed immigration that any one of them who arrived because of hurricane burial, there's a waiver. They don't need all this. We come in from Kanun or, you know, Meru or wherever, and they will be allowed in. So there's a waiver for anything else. And remember, we have. We're in Carrickum. And although we haven't completed all that's required for total freedom of movement, as you know, nowadays, it's just skilled movement, wage earners and non wage earners, etcetera. There's a process. They were hoping to deal with everything by the end of March, as was stated by Mayor Motley, who is the chair of that committee, but it hasn't been completed, so there's no total freedom of movement. But we have waived the requirement to have a special permit or whatever to come in?
[00:14:42] Speaker C: No, but you raised a very serious point a few moments ago. You said, who is doing checks and balances as it relates to whether you have families here?
[00:14:52] Speaker B: That's it. So you can't justify there are lots of pedophiles around.
[00:14:57] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:14:58] Speaker B: You know, when we look at what's happened in Haiti, how many UN peacekeepers have been known and prosecuted for going in as peacekeepers and really raping the children and, you know, and it's so, we know worldwide there are issues.
It's like a sweetie shop. We not going to open our sweetisha for people who have bad intention to come and destroy even further the minds and bodies of children.
[00:15:26] Speaker C: Well said.
[00:15:27] Speaker B: That's why it has to be careful. We have to be careful about this.
[00:15:30] Speaker C: And I'm thinking in that instance, while it's good to say, well, I just came in from karaoke or from here or from there, and it's waived. I think the one thing that we need to look at as immigration officers is to verify and validate your, your arrival. So you run from the country, a manager, get into Trinidad, who are you staying with and when the name will be different.
[00:15:53] Speaker B: So when immigration officers gonna come out and move?
[00:15:57] Speaker C: That's what I'm thinking.
[00:16:01] Speaker B: Relative, right? And get the relative to prove you're the relative because the name would be different.
[00:16:06] Speaker C: That's my point.
[00:16:09] Speaker B: Jane could turn up there and say that is because, you know, so who is going to check that?
[00:16:16] Speaker C: My point of this. I mean, the prime minister, good gesture. We, you know, we. I applaud Doctor Keith Rowley for, for it. It shows human, uh, humanity on it, on the part, you know, we are humanitarians. We. We are good Samaritans, as it were. But the thing is, is there support staff in place to assist the immigration officers when they come through and fill out these, these forms and say, what are you going out there now and fact find? Because we can't fact find in advance. I don't know. Is there an application that's going to happen. I want to come into Trinidad as a refugee coming up from the islands and you're sending information and no, it's only when you arrive on the plane and you get through Piaco International at that juncture, because when I go to the US, they ask you, I will never forget going into the US some years ago for a vacation. But I made a mistake. Now, the address said 1530 so and so street in Queens, New York. And when I, when I. When I presented that on the form to the immigration officer, the the, the man told me that address does not exist. But I gone back and I'm checking it, it, he said, no, it doesn't exist. So I was like, my goodness. I like, they go, send me back home. What is going on? I said, no. So and so. He said, let, he said, don't worry, it's 1530. He says, I live, I live two streets down. And the addresses there, you forget to put it dash.
[00:17:46] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:17:46] Speaker C: So the thing about it is that simple dash, instead of 1530 or 1530, it was actually 1530 so and so street in Queens, New York. And the thing about it is this, when they're coming to Trinidad and you say, I am staying, my auntie and Auntie Sandra, Sandra is my aunt and she's taking me and my little sister or my little brother here with me, with us, then you're talking children. Are these children going to be traveling alone?
[00:18:16] Speaker B: Alone. That's it.
[00:18:18] Speaker C: Who is bringing these children in?
[00:18:19] Speaker B: They may not even arrive here with human trafficking. They may not even get there, you know, so we cannot spin topping, mother. We have to, we have big heart. We are very generous people, but we, we have intelligent enough people to plan.
[00:18:36] Speaker C: We have to plan it.
[00:18:37] Speaker B: I mean, we don't have people at the airport when they come through immigration to see if the nenen or uncle aren't genuine and to follow up, who's going to monitor, who is going to check whether they put them into exploitation, that they want cheap labor, so they send for, you know. Yes.
Exploiting children have been exploited on the insurance. Go on the highway and see how many little children selling things instead of enjoying their holiday or their spare time or they go into school. So there are lots of issues. I'm sorry to have to raise all these issues, but it's serious. We're talking about children's life. Children are greatest assets in the world and we cannot put them through this willy nilly.
[00:19:27] Speaker C: Exactly. Let's take a call. Hello. Good morning. Very quickly, please.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: Good morning.
I am saying that your first caller on this segment was someone who was very xenophobic, an ethnic chauvinist, to be making that type of statement that he made about take care of us before you take care of them.
I am so desperate, disgusted and nauseated by the behavior of these callers who are doing serious damage to the fabric of this nation, by the constant chauvinism, ethnically, in relation to persons up the island. If somebody up the islands want to send their children by the family that they have across here, it's easily done. These boats and schooners travel between these islands all the time. They come down here on the island and meet them on the port and they go by their family. That's all. Of course they are risk, but where they are risk, we have authorities and laws to do that.
[00:20:25] Speaker C: All right, all right. Thank you very much. We can't. All right, thank you. What this caller is saying is that it's a bit nauseating to hear other callers say that we need to take care of home before we extend our doors and hand to others. He says it's nauseating because at the end of the day, we're not just doing this for a country that is doing well. This country has faced the wrath of mother Nature, and I have to agree with that caller. It has faced the wrath of Mother Nature.
So while we still have to help ours at home, we are still responsible within the caricom arrangement. At least help our curriculum neighbors. One. One text is saying Devi is other. Are other islands opening the doors as well and always adjusts us? Well, the responsibility falls on the heads of government of various countries. Exactly. It's not about fear. We can be morals and values.
[00:21:23] Speaker B: We have morals and values.
[00:21:25] Speaker C: That's it.
[00:21:25] Speaker B: And thank God, with all the crime that's around, thank God there's still good hearted people who will be willing to take the chance. We're taking a chance, yes. But we. It's God. Most. Many of the people in Trinidad are faith based people. So you can't say you love God, but you hate your neighbor. You cannot do that. No, it doesn't work like that. So I thank God that we're going to try, but let's try. Let's do it properly.
[00:21:55] Speaker C: Let me ask you a question. Is the catholic community looking at assisting as well? I am thinking outside of the fact that some persons may not have families or relatives and in dire need of help, is the catholic community looking, as you ask, diocese looking in any way to reach out to government and say, listen, we can house a few children over the next couple months in Trinidad while their country is rebuilding for the next school term. Is the archdiocese looking at that?
[00:22:23] Speaker B: I put that I'll write immediately after this call to his grace to suggest that. But the prime minister hasn't said it could work like that. The prime minister said he must have relatives. So unless the prime minister changed that, and again, even if the church says that we will need monitoring arrangements.
[00:22:44] Speaker C: Well said.
[00:22:44] Speaker B: Now we gone out of the relatives bit.
[00:22:49] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, while suggesting it, I know.
[00:22:53] Speaker B: That the Catholic Church, I know that the Catholic Church will be reaching out to assist even when children come here. But the thing is, how will we know where they've gone to? Will there be a mapping exercise so that organization like Catholic live in water? My commission, the commission, catholic commission. How will we know if they want help the families, you know, to go and help? We would know where they are. So that's another issue. People may be willing to help. So perhaps in, in parishes. We have 60 suggest to him that our parishes find out I which families, you know, ask at mass on a Sunday. Any of you have any of these children you want help?
[00:23:34] Speaker C: Good point.
[00:23:35] Speaker B: There are ways in which we can do it.
[00:23:37] Speaker C: Good point. Now, as we continue our discussion here, very quickly, let's go down to the issue of crime. You did mention it at the very forefront of our discussion this morning. What are the, are there real concerns and if so, what are they with migrants coming into this country as it relates to crime? You mentioned something about recruitment from gangs, pulling in these persons who are less fortunate in society, showing them what is glitz and glamour of a brighter life. What are your thoughts?
[00:24:04] Speaker B: Yeah, well, in fact, we know that we've had a symposium on crime and violence last year and many of the wonderful declaration, as you know, by our curriculum leaders, but we not migrants and refugees, you see every now and then you read in a paper, Venezuelan involved in the crime or Venezuelan killed in so bad house will be calling you. Because remember, those children who are going to be allowed to go into schools are only about 100 to 200 when they're thousands of venezuelan children. Only those children whose parents had registered, only them with those could go into schools. So there are many other children, venezuelan children, who are not going to be able to go to school. What happens to them? We know that even the schools, the gangs are recruiting. And you know that Victoria Alexander Brussel from the Express wrote about the rise in the number of women who are and girls who are being recruited to gangs, some of them taking on significant roles in drug transit, meant in carrying messages, etcetera.
So it's not only in the schools, but out there. So I'm saying that when migrants, migrant children are left to their own devices, parents gone out to work, we are looking for trouble. We're making a stick to beat our own back. When we don't, the gangs are there recruiting them because they will have work for idle hands kind of thing, you know. So, no, we, and of course, as somebody has said, when we bring it, when migrants come in, there are over 30 countries from which migrants come. And as Pope Francis has said, we should not treat migrants as pawns on the chessboard of humanity. We only have a 2014 policy here. We do not have legislation to enter to make the treaty that we signed legitimate. So, you know, there was a. We know that Paris al Rawi, when he was the minister, he had said in the past that we looking at how we could, how we could. It's not the right time. Then he said to enact law, legislation to allow them the rights that they would have, and they could sue us if we bring in legislation saying they have all these rights under the constitution. And he had said, we have to do it. We have to do it in a manner that will enable us to put things in place before we do that. But that is since 2014, even before that. So what are we doing now? I understand that some Venezuelans are going back home, but it's like we have porous borders. So they come and they go, and many of them are working and being exploited, and they are contributing to the economy of the country.
My view is, and the Catholic Church's view is, find some way to legitimize their stay here. The children should not be. Hundreds of children should not be out of school. They ain't going anywhere. Many of them are married, you know, and the children. I met a young fellow only last week. He said, I was born in Venezuela, but I grew up here. And he hasn't. His parents are not here to register him. He's on his own. His child growing up on his own. He's now about 16.
[00:27:46] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:27:47] Speaker B: There are many in that position. And my concern is, if we want to fight crime, we must have a holistic approach. As I said in my article on prison and prison reform and transformation recently, a holistic approach means you look at the risk factors. What are the risk factors that will prevent crime? We want to prevent crime. The concept that we should have is, how do you prevent? And the UNDP told us that, you know, the 2012 UNDP report on citizen security, and they told us that we have to have a better balance between legitimate law enforcement and prevention. With a focus on prevention. You prevent by making sure that people have jobs, that we have a living wage, you know, the whole range of issues. And so if we don't have systems in place to prevent, then you have to control. How are we controlling? Guns are coming in. When you see these kind of guns, these. These people have Christmas lists. You see the guns, where they get in these guns? These young fellows don't have the money to buy them from the guns.
[00:28:56] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:28:57] Speaker B: You know, and that is why there's a sort of macabre feeling some people have is who's giving them the guns to destabilize the country. That's what some people feel when these people get in the gun. So it's prevention, control and rehabilitation when in. You remember Daniel Kahn, who was the then inspector of prisons? He says 74 in his report, 74% of offenders who come out of jail re offend within three to five years. You know, in my view, we do not have proper rehabilitation programs in school. There's a 2020 report I referred to in my article that talks about what. It's a report from six and six countries, what we should be doing in terms of rehabilitating prison. From the time they enter, there should be a program that's specified, relating to that particular person. Right. And then, of course, as they say, you must have opportunities for the person to maintain contact with their families and friends, because when they come out, if there are no families and friends, it's back to a life of crime. So in our minds, that concept of prevention, control and rehabilitation, that conceptual framework, my dentist and I were talking about that, that conceptual. We haven't, we haven't got that. So having. We have a lovely youth policy. Just Google. Minister Hines and his team came up with a wonderful youth policy, but we're not good at implementation. We have all the right words, all the high polluting words, but implementation, how we implement to make sure our youths have a future.
So many of them are dying before they even reach 2030. No, our country, we going down the slippery slope and it's time we take stock. We have enough intelligent people in our country. Oh, good God, we can do better. We must do better.
[00:30:55] Speaker C: Mister Hamdin, I want to thank you very much.
[00:30:58] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new talk radio Freedom 106.5.
