Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: You're tuned into the all new freedom
[00:00:03] Speaker B: 106.5, 106.5 with one of our reporters here at Guardian Media, Peter Christopher. As we delve into Eye on the Economy and this edition of Eye on the Economy is being sponsored and brought to you in part by Guardian Asset Management Ltd. Let me say good morning to Peter Christopher. Remember that this edition of I and the Economy is definitely being sponsored in part by Guardian Asset Management Limited. Good morning, Peter.
[00:00:30] Speaker A: PETER Good morning. Good morning.
[00:00:34] Speaker C: Good morning.
[00:00:34] Speaker A: How are you doing?
[00:00:36] Speaker B: Watching tricks and paying attention to what is happening on the local political landscape here in Trinidad and Tobago. Now, I know you are serious for them when we get to conversations of the economy and you have done quite well from time to time with explaining to our listening audience things that are happening now.
We see where these increased fines for the coconut oil producers and local products that people make in Trinidad and Tobago, first and foremost, what is the government proposing before one can be guilty and have to pay these fines with these local manufacturers and local producers? What is government proposing?
[00:01:28] Speaker A: All right. I think that has been clearly explained things. What they've been trying to do, I think a lot of it has been what they've been trying to do is to make sure that a lot more businesses are registered so that they can indeed get, you know, greater revenue from, you know, untaxed sources.
So there are a lot of small businesses, and we spoke to Shiraz Khan of the Sheep and Goat Farmers association about this yesterday, and he pointed out that, you know, in rural communities especially, there are a lot of little small businesses that emerge from families who have the ability to, you know, develop products from coconut oil and stuff like that so they could get a little supplemental income. And I think really what has been happening, because there has been a shortfall in revenues, especially from the energy sector, is that the government has been looking at, you know, different areas where they might be able to, you know, to get something extra.
Personally, I think that this is geared towards some of the larger companies that they think may have, you know, slipped through the cracks a bit.
And the smaller companies are just the collateral damage in this instance.
So it is really just them looking at different avenues of revenue at this time by, you know, ensuring that there's a registration fee so that they know that these companies first of all exist and then secondly, if they are liable, they would have to pay these fines.
[00:03:10] Speaker B: So this has nothing to do with health because you have persons with spas coming up with facial creams and soaps out of natural resources and they sell these body cleansers where persons can apply these things. They could even take a shower with it. It smells good. And they're making it in the backyard in a room. They create one of the bedroom or they designate a little area in the house for their products.
And these spas or persons who know they create foot scrubs and all these things that, you know, generally has to be applied to person's skin, whether they're FDA approved and all these things, that's a different story. So this fine, these hefty fines that government is proposing now on citizens, from what you are explaining, I haven't heard anything that it poses a health risk for unregistered persons to qualified persons to engage in corporal products.
[00:04:20] Speaker A: Well, I haven't seen that argument. I mean, yes, it is something that could be stated that you would want to know who is making these products so that, you know, if there is that sensor liability, they could go back to these companies and find out, you know, how did you make this? Did you get the proper testing and approvals?
However, as has been the case for much of their policies since they've come into government, they have led with the fact that the fine has been increased by 100 or 200% and then subsequently have come and said, well, no, this would also be a health benefit because, you know, we don't know if these people have been doing such and such or in the case of alcohol, you know, that would deter people from drinking alcohol when they raise the excise duty on alcohol and such.
So on the face of it, it looks like an attempt to, you know, supplement the revenues a bit. But I do think, just like with the landlord surcharge tax, I think it is initially an attempt to know who are the people who are benefiting from the system that they may not know about or they would want to know more about rather.
[00:05:37] Speaker B: So, I mean, I looked at the story, I paid attention to things being said and as I mentioned to you a few moments ago, the entire story did not speak to anything relating to health risk or being. I mean, there was a part of the story where they questioned the public health justification as being advanced for the measure. But the thing about it is, is there an entity in Trinidad and Tobago that looks at these products where a person has to be, the product has to be tried and tested properly by this medical team or the certified team to give an approval, a certificate of approval for production and worse yet, not just producing it, but I mean, selling this thing to the wider population.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: Yeah, they are, I think, a Lot of things have to be sent to CAFA and such to make sure that these are cleared for usage.
Especially if you are going into manufacturing and exports, you do have to send your products for testing and get that approval. I know that that is a major part of the process to get your products on grocery shelves and exported to foreign countries in particular.
So there is a system in place with regard to that. But of course, you know, in, as Shiraz Khan mentioned yesterday, in the rural community, the small business who, you know, essentially just popped up or even as you mentioned, the spa, this person who has this part, they spa that they, they run in and they're saying, well, you know, I have, I have this option where I can make my own thing.
These things might not go before those laboratories and be tested. They might just be, well, I have it here as a convenience and it is a way to supplement the income. So from that standpoint, there is an argument that the government is doing the writing by asking for these people to register. And the registration fee, based on what I read, isn't onerous. It's really the fine that cut the headline. The fines went up significantly, but the registration fee was somewhat minimal.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. The fines went up.
And according to Minister Tanku, it is there to serve as a deterrent for you and anybody who wants to engage in errand behavior. So you coming to the registries, Ministry of Registries, right in Port of Spain, here in the government campus, Government Plaza, and you register the name of your business, state what it is, and then you submit it and you wait for approval, which doesn't take that long because what you have to do is go through the system and check to see whether anybody else has that name or anything remotely close. And then the name can either be granted or denied. And then you had to come up with the next name and come back to them and register your business.
So government is looking to streamline those things. For those of you just joining us, you are locked into freedom. 106.5 FM and we are chatting with Mr. Peter Christopher, senior business reporter here on CNC3. And we're talking on the I. We'll be discussing I and the economy, which is things that are taking place in current affairs. But as we continue with the program this morning, please be advised that this is being sponsored in part by Guardian, Guardian Asset Management. We are dealing with Eye on the Economy. Senior reporter Peter Christopher is now here with me. And of course we must thank the fine folks out there at Guardian Asset Management.
So Peter, as we continue our Discussions this morning we're talking about these local products and I listened to, well, I read an article or paid attention to a statement coming out from the Diego Martin West Diego Martin Northeast pnm, MP Colm Imbert as he spoke against this what he termed as new taxes as it relates to defiance and there to punish poor people. And he alluded to the product known as Babash. Now is Babash a legal product in this country as far as you know?
[00:09:51] Speaker A: That's a very interesting question.
Well, it's interesting in that I'm not sure it's a regulated thing and.
But they are also.
There's also homemade wines which is also as far as I know, somewhat legal.
I think in both cases you'd have to regulate. There needs to be some form of regulation for these kinds of things as these are things that are consumed pre public that don't have, you know, product assurance. I think I don't, I'm not really sure someone making Babash is going to send it to Karoo for testing for people for public consumption.
So there is a lot of gray area and I think that's a fair argument that the government could exploit. If we have all these sub industries where people are making products for the public consumption, there's a fair argument that, you know, they need to know about it. But Baba Shah Baba is very, what's, what's the word I can use here?
[00:10:59] Speaker B: I want to be, I want to be a bit controversial and say it's undocumented rum.
But the thing about it is I look at what the MP is saying and it's almost as if he wants to support illegal manufacturing.
All right. Improperly made Babash could kill you. And that's the point. That's why it's illegal. It's not really a drink. A drink that you will go in the grocery on the supermarket shelves and see it. Hello. Good morning.
[00:11:26] Speaker C: Good morning to you, Davy.
[00:11:28] Speaker B: Good morning.
[00:11:28] Speaker C: And Good morning to Mr. Christopher, who initially I thought was a visiting economist.
But Mr. Christopher, you know, when we talk about the whole question about the economy and production and all of that, there are some key things that we are missing in this economy.
We fail to realize that we don't have food security in this country. And there appears to be no effort being made towards securing our food because in this nuclear world in which we live, anything can happen and we can find ourselves with no imported food. Secondly, the whole question about work labor for those on the lowest rung of the ladder. Do you know that we spend millions of dollars in all sorts of furniture and furnishing and also think all it was importing them and all of that, all of these persons who work at the level CPAP and all of that, it may cost us a little more. We do have a teak industry here and we can go into manufacturing and repair all those things, all those government officers, schools and all of that, instead of buying them. Crazy. The whole question really and truly of the GDP and us producing something is something that they ought to have a, a serious concern about. And I don't see that concern increasing our GDP and the question of food security, I don't see it anywhere on the reader. Listen to your comments.
[00:12:52] Speaker B: All right.
[00:12:53] Speaker D: Okay.
[00:12:54] Speaker B: Your comments, Peter,
[00:12:58] Speaker A: very valid point. With regard to food security in particular, of course, there is the question that if the Caribbean is able to sustain itself in terms of the capacity of food that is required, our food import bill has consistently increased and it increased significantly in the last year and a half because of all the geopolitical pressures.
And again, I would refer to the interview with Mr. Khan yesterday who, who also pointed that out when they introduced these taxes on the coconut oil and the vinegar production, it was another blow for the agriculture sector because it's usually small farmers who have these trees and those products, who are able to make those products as a supplemental income to further bolster their ability to produce and invest in their farms.
And he felt it was another way to deter people from looking into getting into agriculture. And he was actually calling for the government to do more to make sure that, you know, farmers or aspiring farmers would be more encouraged to take up the slack and try to address the food security concerns that we have in Trinidad. And because the reality is we don't produce enough food in Trinidad and Diego and much of the Caribbean, it was a Caricom goal to get to reduce our food import bill 25% by 2025. That didn't happen. I think only Guyana made any kind of significant progress on it.
So definitely there should be more done to improve the agriculture. Well, give some impetus to the agriculture sector. Of course, climate change hasn't helped because, you know, the rainy season has been kind of. Well, it started. But there are concerns from farmers that the amount of rain needed to provide proper irrigation for their crops has not come as yet. So there are a lot of variables. And as for the labor and the teak industry in Trinidad and Tobago, before I even reach there, I would like to say that the cocoa industry in Trinidad and Tobago is considered top of the line. Cocoa from Trinidad and Tobago is Global standard and it's highly sought. But we don't have enough of a workforce in the cocoa industry to create the level of production that would really move the needle of our GDP at this point in time. And I think a similar thing would happen with the teak industry. Yes, it would be able to address some of the local issues in terms of the amount, in terms of getting furniture and stuff like that, but, but the level of production required and the level of manpower that we would need to really get the GDP addressed by that industry.
It might be a little on the lower side, but it is something that can be explored for sure.
[00:15:53] Speaker B: As we look at the media budget coming up, the media budget review, do you think there would be anything in that budget that will speak one, to food security and sustainability locally and two, reduce prices as the complaints of the import bill has been astronomically high for over the last, what, 15 years and
[00:16:14] Speaker A: possibly even longer than that. We are import heavy country.
I haven't seen anything in the, in the bill, the finance bill that was pushed as a precursor to the media budget review.
I really haven't seen anything in it that is going to give impetus to agriculture. And I think people in the agriculture sector have kind of thrown their hands up consistently for the last 12, 15 years, budget after budget asking for, you know, something to be done. I think they've got some tax exemptions, but no, nothing really significant to really push the industry in the way that we could see an adjustment in the food import bill and address the food security concerns.
[00:16:59] Speaker B: All right. Hello, good morning. Quickly please.
Hello, good morning.
[00:17:04] Speaker E: Morning.
I'm listening to the program and I hear him concerning the register.
Folks will have to register in the nature of tulum or whatsoever and it must be tested.
And I'm thinking about if the person who sell corn soup and decided to wrote their home, who all of us accustomed to. It starts in our neighborhood, in our little village. Now we're going out. The person who sell doubles. The person who sell little sugar cake and so forth.
If all of us will have to go and register. Even if within the neighborhood people start to make turlo sugarcake and try to taste nice and they tell them, you know, buy and make and sell and make and sell. They might make a five, five, ten dollars.
[00:18:10] Speaker B: Well, all right, I see where you're going and I thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Now you gotta understand something.
And Peter, you could chime in as well, right?
Even if you are doing something in your community.
All right, what wrong with the Bush way way?
They know they ain't hurting nobody.
They play the little thing and whoever called they get them money. Right. No. No harm, no foul. Nobody dies.
However, it remains illegal on our law books. Even if you see or suffer from the syndrome. What happened for that and what wrong with that?
At the end of the day, if you start off as a small business, as a small, because I don't want to say business owner, but if you start up as a small entrepreneur and you're delving into the food industry, you had to go and get a food badge. It goes beyond. You are now, you are now not just making for the consumption of guests coming at your home, relatives coming over, your friends and your neighbors. You are now talking about exchanging your product for cash.
You are talking about moving the business, moving your entity from the kitchen, the confines of the kitchen of your home to the side of the road.
[00:19:30] Speaker A: Yeah, there are rules for reasons and as you mentioned, when you are selling to public, you're required to have a food badge. And that is supposed to be a verification process really to make sure that what you are putting out to the public is fit for public consumption and is not up a public health risk.
But I do understand where he was going with it. And it is the similar argument that was raised before that when you do this, when you introduce these fines and these fees, the the small business owner or the person who is considering going into a small business because as they say, I made the sugar cake and you know, people telling me that this is quality products and all of a sudden you reach to the point where you know your budget is X amount to make these sugar cake and now there's an increase in the registration fee or the registration fee wasn't there, that wasn't budgeted before.
You don't have money for the registration fee maybe because you just had enough to get these products out to sell.
Do you decide to take that risk? If you face the fines of $88,000, do you take that risk now to go into business? And that's the question that I think some of the people in the agriculture sector want to raise. Are you going to put these measures in place to deter people who are on the cusp of making the leap and who does it benefit in the long run? If we wanted to stimulate business in the economy, we do need SMEs to start to develop and grow. And if more of them are seeing more obstacles in their way as opposed to gateways, we are not going to see that growth, I think is the question that needs to be asked as Opposed to.
[00:21:34] Speaker B: Here's the thing. Here's the thing. Peter, my apologies. I didn't mean to cut you. Here's the thing. I didn't want to lose the thought quickly because we are getting sent to the end of the, of the, the segment before the news.
Persons who are talking about the concerns of these small entrepreneurial spirits within your communities that, you know, produce this product.
If for some reason one of you, one of your children gets food poisoning, would you not want to hold somebody accountable? Somebody, especially if the person passes on or is rendered incapacitated for quite an extended period of time based on the level of food poisoning. Maybe a bad batch of the babash was created, maybe the poncha creme. They put one ingredient too many because some of these things use essence and bitters and these things are heavily alcoholic based and they have, they have these things in it that can damage you internally. So if it's not properly administered in terms of the ingredients and measured properly, where you can hold someone accountable, the same spirit of the entrepreneurial and the grandma in the area or the small farmer who trying to think you buy this product and your whole face break out.
But this person is not regulated or documented. I don't want to use the word documented, but they're not regulated, they're not registered.
[00:22:59] Speaker A: I opened it by saying, yeah, rules are there for a reason. There is a need for regulation.
[00:23:03] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:23:04] Speaker A: And there is a need for us to know what's in these products.
[00:23:08] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:23:08] Speaker A: If they have been tested, if they've gone through the process and everything like that. But I think what they call the spirit of what the caller was asking is that if you are putting these deterrents, these loud deterrents in place now, do these people who see that they have these talents to make these things, the ones who probably might be able to go and get these, because getting these things tested is also a cost. Sending it to Kariri and CAFA and making sure that you get your food badge, all of that are costs, costs to doing business.
If you are increased, essentially, if you're increasing the cost. We always talk about the ease of doing business in Trinidad and Tobago and how difficult it is and such.
If we're adding an additional step, are we increasing the ease of doing business or are we making it harder for these people? That is the question, I think what the caller is asking.
[00:24:08] Speaker B: But even if that's the case, we still. You started by saying rules for a reason. At the end of the day, when one must understand, you don't open a grocery A supermarket or a pharmacy, you open your rent, the space, the building empty and when customers come and give you money, you then take that money and go and buy the product and the customer come back and get it. It'll work. So when you open a business, you have to find the money to stock the shelves and get all these things done. So there is that. There's an old adage, you have to have money in order to make money. So these measures in terms of opening a business and going to Capra and getting these things tested, that proves to be a necessity and is also par on course for ease of doing business. We are telling you. What I think is missing if you want to question the government in terms of a sustainable SME economy is make it in a way where there are. It's easier to get your products in and the turnover or the turnaround time is not long winded. And I don't think it's that expensive because I did start off. If you making tulum fudge sugar cake does, do you put up a sign or you, oh, you come out on your shout, I'm making tullamon sugar cake. And then somebody comes and say, how much is sugar cake? I say five dollars. And you give me the five dollars. And as I get in five upon five, I then go and buy a piece of Bristol board, buy a marker, make a sign and then after that I go and buy products and then you your money. Now you ought to come back and collect the product. No, you have a little capital, a little savings, whatever you do, whether you borrow, whatever, and you invest into your business before others can. So to use the excuse that we not making it lucrative for the smaller person to come out and start something because of the, you know, the economy is hard, we can't get jobs. To sustain ourselves is ludicrous. Because at the end of the day what we should ask government is can you make getting these things done a little easier for us? The turnaround time maybe multiple buildings, areas and locations in different parts. If I'm in Princess Town, there's an area I can go and get turnaround time rather than have to go to descent. All these are things we can look at. But to tell me that the government regulating things to protect you, that is madness. Let me take this call quickly. Good morning.
Hello, Good morning.
[00:26:33] Speaker D: Good morning, Good morning. And I think you just hit the nail on the head, the spirit law. I think people should look at that and just see what happened in Dominica in 2019 where 124 people died because of improper production of spirits.
Also the situation with pharmaceuticals. They have storage neither person but a B2 of spas.
There are spas now that are actually dwelling in areas such as semaglutide or zempic and drugs for weight loss, which can have serious and deleterious effects on persons.
And there are registration bodies. And I think the point that you made there, and I think the call is the right call, we can fix a lot of these things and government can work to ensure there's a better efficiency, that's reasonable. But to say that we throw the baby out of the bathwater because something is not working as efficient as it should and to protect the public health interests in at least these two areas.
You are very right and correct. There was no need for my quote. Thank you.
[00:27:44] Speaker B: Appreciate. Outside of that, Peter, one can look at inspectorates, not inspector. It's inspectors passing around the punch man, the man who's selling chow. Ever so often you have a team of persons qualified, licensed, working as agents of the government. And they pass around, you rotate them, they go to areas. You see somebody selling chow, they purchase the chow. What we just call, there's a word for it, mystery shopper.
Mystery shoppers.
And you get it and you test it. So the Chowman, where by La Hokita, Maloney, Bonaire, all these people, I see them in Port of Spain by Belmont. And it's all these places. You had the chowman. You're passing a pick up a pineapple chairman. You go to America's beach where they're selling them. They're passing a pickup one. You test it to see if. Because remember, we. We not gonna make no noise. We, we, we. We want to go along with the illegal activities until one of us.
[00:28:42] Speaker A: Okay, okay. Let me, let me.
I'm not saying here that these people shouldn't be registered. I'm not saying that in slightest.
What has been suggested here is that there's. There's an arbitration fee that has been added and there has been an increase to defines.
Have we seen enough is the question. Have we seen enough of people skirting the law that defines need to be increased? Is one of the questions. And also the question is now that you have raised the fines to this exorbitant amount because in the finance bill there was also a reduction on fees for in gaming taxes and such, but there was an increase in fees related to this agricultural sector.
Is there enough of an argument that these fines needed to be increased at this time? Is what I think is the question here.
If you are trying to encourage people to get into agriculture.
And you're immediately telling them, but you know, if you do it wrong, the punishment is more severe.
Is that an encouragement? Is the question I would pose at this time.
[00:29:58] Speaker B: All right. With that being said, when we look at further afield, your final thoughts as it relates to the energy sector, where Munilal says that not because we didn't jump on a plane and travel and take a 1500 pictures means that we are not in dialogue.
Very quickly, based on your reporting and your investigations and questions you'd have asked how are we faring in the energy and energy industry sector here in Trinidad and Tobago?
[00:30:31] Speaker A: Oh, I think at this point in time, much like I like much, much of the. The public really waiting to see what, what, where the, the shoe will fall.
I think Chair Ram Dina of the NGC pretty much summed it up. We are not out of the discussion because we have to be part of the discussion because we have the facilities that are required for the processing of those gas fields. But at this point in time we're not holding all the cards. And I'm not sure that we do have sufficient representation in Etalks because the talks are primarily happening between the multinational companies, the shells and the BPs, and the Venezuelan government.
And I'm not seeing enough to suggest that Trinidad is doing enough to help those negotiations. I haven't seen enough. That's all I can say. I'm not saying we're completely absent from it because we have to be a part of it because we have the facilities and that has succumbed. Shell has to speak to their people at Atlantic to make sure that we have the capacity to address these things and make sure the production lines are sustainable.
But at this point in time, I'm not totally convinced that we're doing enough to make sure that the negotiations do include Trinidad and Tobago sufficiently.
[00:32:08] Speaker B: All right, Peter, Christopher, thank you so much. This segment being brought to you, Eye on the Economy sponsored by Guardian Asset Management. Peter, get to work safe and we'll talk again soon. Have a good one.
[00:32:19] Speaker A: You're tuned into the all new freedom 106.5. 106.5.
