Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new Talk Radio, Freedom 106.5. Once again, good morning, Trinidad and Tobago. Welcome Back to Freedom 106.5 FM. It's all about election, election, election. This is an election year, boy is election all over the place, boy. From the general election to the internal elections of the pnm. Now the Police Welfare association is having their internal elections. I have two guests in studio with me. Good morning, lady and gentlemen.
[00:00:29] Speaker B: Good morning. Good morning.
[00:00:31] Speaker A: Come to the. Just make sure I get in you.
[00:00:33] Speaker C: Yes. Good.
[00:00:34] Speaker A: Let me hear you.
[00:00:35] Speaker C: Good morning.
[00:00:36] Speaker A: Right.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: Good morning.
[00:00:38] Speaker A: Good. So welcome to the program. Welcome to Freedom 106.5 FM. Let's tilt your mic a little bit to you. Right? There you go. All right, so top of the morning to you guys. We have the WPC is a sergeant.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: You said sergeant, right.
[00:00:53] Speaker C: And our Assistant Commissioner Anand Ramisa.
[00:00:56] Speaker A: Assistant Commissioner Anand Ramessa.
[00:00:58] Speaker C: Former president.
[00:00:59] Speaker A: Former president. So you all. So you all going back up for this?
[00:01:03] Speaker C: We are going back up. There's a call for us that. We have responded to the call.
[00:01:07] Speaker A: What are your thoughts on the current sitting president and his tenure in office so far? ACP Gideon Dixon.
[00:01:13] Speaker C: I think, I think I might do some. I might be kind to him if I, if I not responded. But I, I need to respond to it. So that.
Because you have asked the question. And I think there has been a major disappointment. It was a major disappointment as far as addressing the issues, the issues that affect the welfare of the membership, the issues that affect the terms and conditions of the membership, the issues that were important for the memberships, you know, so you have primary issues. You have secondary issues. And I think you have missed, missed the target in relation to that. And, and the membership had no. The major issue with the membership one is that an association's primary function is terms and conditions, securing a good result coming out of the collective agreement. And yes, the association, under the leadership of Mr. Dixon, now Mr. Pitt, who, who was the vice president, settled for 2%.
And this is not so much that they settled for 2%, but they went on without a fight.
They showed no testicular fortitude and circumstances when they should have.
And as a police organization, that is not just unacceptable, it is not to be tolerated. And the membership is going to demonstrate that at the polls at least.
[00:02:34] Speaker A: We are hopeful that they do.
[00:02:35] Speaker C: They will. They will.
[00:02:36] Speaker A: So would you say that this contributed to the. The morale break within the police service?
[00:02:42] Speaker C: Significantly contributed to the morale in the police service.
And as it is, there's a gap that needs to be filled at this point in time. Membership. The membership needs that representation that is sensitive, that is organic, that understands that the commitment that they make in circumstances where the salary is not compensated, the duties and responsibilities that they are doing, at the very least, you must have an association that have their back that understands when your representation needs to be registered. That is why myself and Ms. Longtan and our team, our banter is fearless and effective representation in all things, especially as it relates to the special reserve police officers where there. There's a complaint of unfair and unequal treatment in relation to how they. How they are treated in the organization. Many retirees are dying before they get their pension and gratuity and there does not seem to be a response by way of policy in addressing these issues. Mental health is a big issue for us in the organization. And again, it cannot be responded. It cannot be responsive. It needs to be proactive in relation to these matters.
[00:04:02] Speaker A: Let's talk to Ms. Loton a bit in terms of some of the concerns you'd have been hearing on the ground in tandem with what Mr. Ramisan is saying this morning. What are some of the concerns you are hearing?
[00:04:14] Speaker B: Yes. So the concerns of the members are wide in variety. We have stemming all the way from promotion. Promotion is always a sore point in the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service and it always ends end with. With court.
It always end with the. The officers not being able to. To get any sort of satisfaction in terms of their complaints or in terms of. Of what took place. And we are saying that every time an issue occur in the police service, members have to incur expenses and go to the court. Where is the association? What's the purpose of the association? We need to have some sort of effective representation. We have police officers, as Mr. Ramisa said, they are retiring when they retire, salary cease. The officers still have children going to school. They have. They still have commitment mortgage payments. And you are telling me a year, two years and they cannot get their gratuity or the pension. Those are unacceptable. We. We do not have any resettlement program. It's not. No. We. The Trinidad and Tobago Police Service in existence, why are we taking so long to get off the ground and to get things things going in the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service? We are internal customers. And if there's such dissatisfaction among the internal customers, how are we expected to interact with our external customers? And yet still the officers come out and they do that. The working conditions leaves a lot to be desired.
They are non compliance with OSHA at all times. And the officers Keep coming out and they are expected to give more and more and they do.
But when would it be that the officers could come to work and be comfortable with their working environment? When can they come to work and expect to get the required tools and resources? Police officers do not arm themselves with body cams. The organization has to provide those things for them. There are cries for members of the public in terms of the manner in which police officers at times perform their duties. And there are steps that could be taken, solutions easy within reach that could prevent those sort of situations. But police officers are not getting what they need to perform their duties. Simple thing, boots, clothes.
Let's understand, let's understand that we need to provide for our officers.
[00:06:33] Speaker A: The thing about it is I hear in your boy and when it comes to promotions, you see there's a sore.
[00:06:40] Speaker B: Point, extremely sore points.
[00:06:42] Speaker A: I will tell you of a concern that was raised on this morning. Rumble with me privately and publicly at one point in time as it relates to the SRPs. Should you guys retain, get into office. What are the plans? Because one of the things I'm hearing is that SRPs are doing what the regulars are supposed to do and more. They're actually mandating them to do more. They want them to perform the same duties as regulars. Right. They out there on the field and I mean SRP is a four hour shift.
[00:07:11] Speaker B: I think not anymore. So what we have, what we had taken place is the purpose and intention of the Special Reserve act has long been deviated from by the organization.
[00:07:22] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:07:23] Speaker B: And we have officers who are now performing full time duty analogous to that of the regular police officers. But yes, still we do not have any regulations in place to govern their work, working conditions, their terms and condition.
[00:07:38] Speaker A: Yes, chime in because it's something with Oshaka I want to talk to that she mentioned as well. Go ahead.
[00:07:43] Speaker C: Now the issue with SRPs, you know, SRPs are considered to be exploited in the organization.
And it is our position that equal work, equal pay should be the order of the day. And that has not happened for SRPs throughout the history of the SRP officers. And the full time officers still stands as testimony to officers who they work in. In departments where you have the regular officer get, getting commuted, they not get it. And these things are similar to the municipal officers as well. You have over time it's not available to them in relation to that. And when you look at you working extra hours after a full day's work, your physiological well being is diminishes, it's compromised and there should be A reward in relation to the rate of pay that. But that is not available to you. In relation to that you have the issue of absorption. And one of the concern for special reserve police officers is that they are not going to absorb persons who between 50 and 55 given that the retirement age for a second division officer is 55. But we as an association, us here is say that if we get when we get into office we're not going to accept that because those are the persons who become the most vulnerable in society because their employability has been significantly reduced. And like everybody else it's a reasonable expectation to get a pension and gratitude relation to it. There are some other criteria that I will not speak of publicly that I find should not be considered and we will take a strong stand in relation to that. Now remember my colleague has spoke about SRPs being initially the legislation with the design for them to be part time officers, but the pool. But the commissioner has the power to bring police or special SRPs on board full time as it is required in police service. But it needs from a profession. But the commissioner not speaking the specific commissioner here, I'm just speaking about the office general must have that wherewithal in terms of how you professionally approach these persons and understand that the integrity of the relationship with the SRP must be maintained in terms of the terms and conditions that you treat them. SRP is not scab labor. SRPs are real, they are frontliners. And the equipment, the training for them must be commensurate with the job that you require them to do. Not no crash course in policing because it impacts on the way they treat with the public. And so these things are real.
It goes to the heart of some of the issues that is plaguing the police officers because the public cannot tell the difference between special reserve police and regular police. And we're not asking them for they make any distinction. You know what we say? There must be no distinction. There must be consistency in all police officers, municipal srp, regular police, when we interact with the members of the public because the public deserve consistency and the best treatment from police officers.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: Switching to you Ms. Slochan, as it relates to the officer morale. You talk about the OSHA haki talk about officers coming out there performing duties in some hazardous conditions.
I mean explain to the listening audience as to how this will impact them because sometimes you see police a little hognorant and that's not a word, but they're a little hoggish. They come out there and they're a little aggressive. You know, they might catch you driving on your shoulder and they pull up on you. Rather than be a customer service oriented individual to approach you, you get this kind of what shopping is you doing. Boy, you know, does it speak to the fact that when I get back in the station, look why I had a face, it might be leaking water. I don't even have a locker that lock in properly. What are some of the conditions that you all plan to fix that exist right now?
[00:11:31] Speaker B: So whilst we do admire the fact that officers do have to, we, we interact with our external customers and at all times we must maintain our shared personal and respectful because they did not put us in this situation and we signed up for this job. And that's why regardless of whether how demoralized and demotivated that they actually come out to work, they have to. Right? But the employer, the organization itself need to understand and consider that for officers to perform at a maximum and to give the amount that is required of them, there must be these very said treatment being meted out to them internally. Right. And we are asking for that to take place. And in order for that to take place we are saying there's an association and where there's any sort of delay in that taking place, come and represent the officers, represent the officers interests in fairness to the organization to not every issue they may be aware of, you know.
[00:12:32] Speaker A: Right.
[00:12:33] Speaker B: That's the purpose of the association. Come to the rescue of our employees.
Rescue them. Bring the sort of solution that they require to perform their duties.
[00:12:43] Speaker A: What sort of negligence you would like to highlight this morning that you feel the current administration under the Police Service Welfare association would have neglected to address.
Any one of you can chime in.
[00:12:52] Speaker C: One that stands out for me is being a guardian of the terms and conditions of police officers. And they have been very negligent as it relates to the provision of medical treatment for police officers to the point that they have taken, taken the escape route. Instead of facing the organization and demanding that a basic turban condition is meted out appropriately. Appropriately, they have taken the route in terms of engaging into private provision. And I'm saying what private provision means. It means a reduction in the net income of the police officer because the police officer has to contribute to that in relation to it.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: Oh, Mr. Rami sir, just to chime in what you're saying, even if the, the, the association is lobbying, let's say for the, for the interest of body cams and bulletproof vests, which I think runs in parallel to each other, not, not no one is more Important, right. We had an officer that was shot last July in Bessel street area there.
[00:13:48] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:13:48] Speaker A: Who? I mean, oh my gosh, when I listen to his story, it much is to be desired, but police officers can't protest. Other companies could say, well, you know, we dong tools and we on the streets protesting. You all can't. So if the association is, let's say. I'm just saying, playing devil's advocate. The current president is seeking lobbying with the executive of the police service to get things done. And it's just not happening.
What next could the association really do?
[00:14:16] Speaker C: If an association leadership that understands the industrial relations environment of an organization as the police service will recognize, there are a lot of things, things to do. One, you have to be very forceful in relation to the policy. One, there's a law in relation to policing that you can treat with it. Secondly, there's the avenue of the courts in relation to it. Secondly, there's a special tribunal at the industrial court in relation to issues that remain unresolved in relation to it. Thirdly, there are issues that fall under terms and conditions. And you have to understand illegality in relation to putting a police out there to work where the proper equipment is provided for him. So there's a legal position not to do something if it puts your life at risk in relation to that. What an association leadership needs to do is stand strong and stand up for that member. Because that member by his or herself cannot stand up to the organization.
But the cloak of representation that comes with the appointment of the position under the act gives you that authority. Because you have to recognize you stand on par with the head of the organization and the president and central committee stands on power, the senior superintendents in the organization. So training and development sensitization to the issue and understanding that that water available to you and understanding what the organization can demand of its employees and cannot demand of them in relation to it. So let me give you a simple instance.
A bulletproof vet that is expired, that has lost it in technology to protect the officer. Can you reasonably force an officer to go out in this hostile environment that we sometimes go? The answer for me is simple. As an association president, I know what course of action to take to protect my officer. And I'm sure that I am standing on very good solid ground and that cannot be shaken.
And I will sensitize my membership so that we will be resilient in relation to treating it. But. But if you're going to look at it and allow this problem to fester and. And you're not addressing it like it real. It's real. An officer almost died. Officers have died. Let's go back to the time when officer Bud Warren died. There was a clear policy in the position that you were not to send out officers without bulletproofness. But sending officer with a bulletproof vest been one that. That the integrity of it has not been compromised. So understand the environment, have the fortitude and to treat with it and know the avenues legal procedurally that you can take and the rules that apply. One side of the commissioner there's a balance in act that it applies from the end of the association.
[00:16:56] Speaker A: Let's talk a little bit about work to rule because based on what the Mr. Ramisai is saying is that there's a legal course of action. You don't have the equipment, I can't send you out.
[00:17:07] Speaker C: So if the.
[00:17:08] Speaker A: If the. If your head division supervisor is saying listen, you all let a go out and patrol as an association, the members don't have this. Can they work to rule? And if they can, to what detriment would that be for the public? Ms. Lotion, if you.
[00:17:23] Speaker C: I would take it now.
We can work to rule within the parameters of law. In that you have to understand in the police office what is an unlawful order and what is unlawful order? What do you look what the order is lawful.
We have to carry it out. If the. If the order is the lawful then we build up the required.
[00:17:45] Speaker A: Give an example.
[00:17:46] Speaker C: Let me give an example. For instance.
I. I am not trained as a breathalyzer. You can't ask me to perform the duty of a breathalyzer because yeah technician. Because it does not provide any validity in terms of the evidence that you would sustain in relation to it. You cannot cause me to go on a patrol in a hostile environment without a bulletproof vest because I require bulletproofness in relation to it. We have recent rulings coming out of the.
The Police Service Commission Disciplinary Appeal Board that basically chastises the organization for. For bringing action against officers where the tools to carry out the job was not available. So that stands as a precedent in relationship. But I'm saying the mindset of the officer and one which I don't want that mindset to change is that sometimes decide a caution and provide this service to the members of the public. We do that because we're police today, we're public tomorrow.
Our families are members of the public.
And it is necessary that security, the public safety that we are entrusted to do does not become compromised. But sometimes an association needs to get up and shame Shame the leaders of the organ, the persons who have the responsibility and embarrass them because they sit well when nobody cares about these atrocities. And I say atrocities because you are putting police officers lives at risk. And all goes well for them because most of the time they are in office.
They stand there and they just come when things happen.
They say the politically right thing at the end of the day, but the tears, the fears are with the police officers and their families. But the association did to get on the ground, make that intervention and stand strong and be resilient and take the lash for the officer because they have the financial backing of the organization.
They have the decision making from a general counsel that say we stand with you and from my experience the General Council stands with you when you talk the right thing and you are prepared to walk the talk.
[00:20:07] Speaker A: I have one final question for both of you. As General Secretary, I think you are applying for that position vying for the. And you going back up to become president yet again. Should you guys. When is internal elections?
[00:20:17] Speaker C: Monday 30th of June.
[00:20:18] Speaker A: Monday 30th of June. That's next Monday coming. That's Monday coming actually. All right, so with that being said, should you all retain those seats and those positions, get those positions, what will be one of the first things you as the General secretary and as the president would want to do would want to hit the ground running with communication.
[00:20:39] Speaker B: With the commissioner immediately.
Immediately.
[00:20:43] Speaker A: And what issues?
What are some of the frontline issues? At least give us. Give me three somebody frontline major things that you want to discuss.
[00:20:51] Speaker C: There are some low hugging fruits that I don't know have eluded the current executive in relation to that there are some. Some issues that must take priority And I say one of the first things I'm going to treatment is that issue with the special reserve police officers in relation to the absorption and considering how they treat over time and generally the terms and conditions.
[00:21:11] Speaker A: Because special reserve officers. That's a first.
[00:21:13] Speaker C: That is going to be a first.
[00:21:15] Speaker A: You need to deal with that. What about bulletproof vest and cameras?
[00:21:18] Speaker C: Well, that whole aspect of us in relation to the workplace, the quality of the workplace because as Ms. Lowton had pointed out, there are stations we have gone and of us have bucket catching water that leak in.
We went to some stations where the buttresses have been there for decades in relation in that circumstances where the toilet facilities are still not working. We have a river rain patrol that is working out of those containers. We have Batlor that's still on the edge of edge of the sea there in containers. So that whole aspect in terms of OSHA is an aspect that is going to stand for us but the SRP is going to be number one the issue of the outstanding collective agreement in relation to the salary how we're going to treat salary that is going to be treated with because the failure of the incumbents that two by two we need to get an executive that is going to address that and bring some level of sanity in the way that police officer compensation for police officers is dealt with and one who will not go down without a fight in relation to that. The promotion for the inspectors that is in court. We are going to lobby for that for for that promotion process to start because we have seen too many inspectors are going home when they should should have been first division officers. The the fiasco where the promotion from constable to corporal these things are things that you consider and they are working solutions that nobody's addressing. Noted Low hagin fruits I have said we are going to treat with it.
[00:22:59] Speaker A: Well guys we out of time. We have to leave the interview here but I want to wish you all the best. I do look forward to chatting with you on next week Tuesday, Wednesday when you win. All right. I'm putting it out in the public from my lips to God's ears and I don't want to meet you any road now boy you look like. Yeah. One last thing I want to ask you of the off the cuff here. You know can a senior officer instructor junior to come out into the rain to issue on a roadblock exercise a traffic ticket. I'm just asking because it came up recently during some rainfall we saw some activities and you know persons make pronouncement conversation on the radio.
[00:23:34] Speaker C: I made a senior officer I want to say yes because they are equipment provided for the officer to use in relation to inclement weather right now if he doesn't have the equipment. What are the circumstances that you spoke of before?
[00:23:49] Speaker A: Beautiful, beautiful. I was saying no senior police officer ain't sending me in the green. I gain weight and he sit on the van and I go you mad.
I would have get fired. So guys thank you so much for chatting with me this morning. It has always been a pleasure. The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.
