Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new talk radio Freedom 106.5. And we welcome to our show, CEO of Slimmedown 360, and he also hosts several agriculture programs. With us here, that's Jody White. Good morning to you.
[00:00:23] Speaker B: Morning. Morning saltation. Good morning to all listeners.
[00:00:25] Speaker A: Nice to have you with us here. We also have with us here this morning during our discussion, the first vice president of tutor, that's Arish Dwarka. Good morning to you, Mister Dwarka.
[00:00:38] Speaker C: Hi. Good morning Satish. Good morning to all your listeners.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: And also joining us this is that huge panel we have here this morning, the second vice president of tutor, that's Masha Huggins. Good morning to you as well.
[00:00:54] Speaker D: Good morning Mister Mohabia and good morning to your listeners. It's a pleasure to be here.
[00:00:58] Speaker A: Now this is a discussion, well, actually it's a topic that has not necessarily attracted the kind of discussion that one would have expected it to, for whatever reason. I mean, the announcement was made and it's kind of like, well, okay, the minister said we'll see how it goes, cxcls and if all they still want to have the exam, we could probably look at it on a case by case basis per country or whatever else.
Let's begin by explaining, or rather reemphasizing the persons who may have heard of gist of it and not necessarily understand what's going on. We are being told that agriculture courses are the exams are being removed from the syllabus, from the examination and all that kind of thing.
Let's allow our guests, probably Mister Dwarika and tutor to give us, tell us what's going on. We're hearing bits and pieces about this agriculture thing. It's being removed. What is tutor doing at this point? I'm sorry? What is CXC doing when it comes to agriculture courses?
[00:02:10] Speaker C: Right. So a pleasant good morning to you and the panel and the listeners.
Recently, of course, CXE would have made a statement that they are thinking about taking away four of them. And what is instrumentalist TVET subject areas. So skill based areas from their curriculum. And one of the major ones would have been the agricultural science double award subject. Now, this particular subject holds a double award and of course holds high pristine in terms of the agricultural sector. And one of the issues that the association has is that where was the consultation? Right? Is it that CXC is an independent provider in terms of, are they dictating the educational needs of the curriculum in terms of the curriculum states or the children of the, of the Caribbean? And that's one of the issues that we are having that they seem to be dictating what the students should be studying without proper consultation and that's one of the issues that we are having with this particular subject area.
[00:03:16] Speaker A: How many different courses are affected immediately?
[00:03:20] Speaker C: Well, based on the statements of by CXE there are four subjects, right. One would be the agricultural science tableau road. We have the mechanical engineering, we have the electrical and electronic engineering and of course technology and green engineering. Those are the four areas that CXC would have indicated that they are planning to discontinue. Right.
In that particular seatbank, what would have.
[00:03:47] Speaker A: Been the participation in these courses over the years?
[00:03:51] Speaker C: Well, the minister would have shared some statistics but we are not at liberty right now to give an accurate figure. However, I know that there has been a demand for the agricultural science area, especially in light of the reduction in job opportunities as a result of the petrochemical industry on our basically a standstill. So therefore there has been a little bit of focus in terms of that particular area. Now what is ironic about this particular situation is that the caribbean leaders would have indicated at their last summit that they are looking at the 25 by 25 policy which speaks about an improvement in terms of the agriculture and yet we have the body in the Caribbean for exams wanted to take away that from the. So there's an irony in terms of what the caribbean leaders are articulating and what CXC is now doing and that's why I asked where was the consultation. Now what is also very important is that the minister of education in Trinidad and Tobago recently spoke about the development of thematic schools and one of the major focus in those thematic schools was agriculture. So I'm not understanding that we have a trust, we have a direction in terms of agriculture and yet now CXE is stating that we want to remove that from our syllabus. So the focus and that sort of collaboration I'm not seeing what is happening there and therein lies one of the major problems that we have in the education systems in the Caribbean.
[00:05:33] Speaker A: Well, it's strange things have happened, but I don't want to say it's unthinkable that CXC would have just wake up one morning and decide, see this agriculture. I think we're done with that.
There would have been contributing factors in their decision making from what you're suggesting it doesn't seem as though they were.
They were having the discussions that are necessary, at least with our education system here and the minister and everybody else about what they were planning to do it suggests the manner in which you're speaking about is that you were taken by surprise. Was there any information, any sort of thing in the public domain, anything at all to suggest that CXE was heading in this direction?
[00:06:19] Speaker C: Well, not to my knowledge, and definitely the association, because we realized that Jamaica, they have started to speak out against it as well. So therefore they were also taken by surprise in terms of that.
In Trinidad and Tobago, it was a shock to at least the association when we would have heard that pronouncement, by the, by the by sexy, because, you know, consultation and information and whatnot, those things are there. But however, based on that, we were not given any information. We just articulated on the, on the news that this is what is going to happen. And, you know, of course the conversation started to happen.
[00:07:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I got the impression as well that this thing came like a thief in the night and that people weren't too sure about why it was being done. And that surprised me because one would expect that such a major decision would have been well articulated. There would have been all kinds of discussions before this a decision was made. It does not seem, at least from what you're saying, that that actually happened. Let's bring Jodie White into the conversation, somebody who is well versed when it comes to agriculture and how education plays a role in the furtherance of agriculture and economies and everything else.
How do you view this development?
[00:07:48] Speaker B: I have mixed opinions on this and for our listeners, for some clarification, it's not that agriculture in itself is completely being removed from the syllabus. There are different elements of this course and some of them are being removed. And I want to get into this very, very quickly. For the single award which still exists, students are going to study the business of farming, crop production and animal production. The double award is an extension of the syllabus where they also study horticulture and animal management. So horticulture and animal management are the elements that are being removed. What I do not know is to what extent that is actually being taken up by students in Trinidad, number one. Number two, I don't think it is absolutely critical. It is extremely beneficial to have a population that is, has studied this and can apply it. But to what extent is this critical in another way, later down the road in another course and to the people who are also saying, we want this, are you prepared to encourage your children to take this up? Because we could make all the noise in the world and tell them we want this, but are you going to push your kids to study this? Double award. Is it the direction you want them to go in? And if not, then there are other fundamental issues that are more important that we have to deal with.
[00:09:25] Speaker A: Yeah, that's why I asked the question about some of the statistics about how, what the subscription was to these courses leading up to this decision. Because CXC would have used something as a barometer to make their decision. They wouldn't have. Just as I said, wake up one morning and say, well, here we're going, are we done with this thing? And I'm assuming that participation in the course would have factored into their decision. Let's bring Miss Huggins into the discussion.
Miss Huggins, you obviously part of tutor that plays a great role in monitoring some of these things. How do you describe the impact on the impact coming from the decision by CXC to discontinue these courses?
[00:10:10] Speaker D: Well, to be quite honest, and this is just an observation, it could be that the CXC may have made a decision as a cost factor, meaning that I know for a lot of these technical vocational areas there's a lot of cost that is expended in order for students and teachers to be able to actually navigate through the school based assessment component of these subject areas. So, for instance, for the agricultural science, the labs are basically projects that the students have to do, and that comes at a cost. So if they're doing an animal husbandry project that has, you have to be able to pay for whatever it is to be able to be done. In the past, the school would have had to manage. Now what schools have had to do because of reduced funding, they would have had to find ways to make these projects self sustainable or pay for themselves. So I think it may have been an issue of cost for us at the association. The issue would be what is going to happen to the teachers who have to teach these areas if you are going to be removing these areas of the curriculum. And I know that might be a stepping a little bit further into the future with regard to what the, what the final outlook or implications can be. But we will have to be concerned about our members and their, you know, their security of tenure within their jobs. If it is, there's nothing for them there to do, then why are they at the school? So if CCT is making a decision, and again, the decision seems to be preliminary without the discussion of the member states, because CARICOM pays a CXE, all of the member states, the administrators of education, pay CXC to administer these exams. If that decision has come without discussion, then there seems to be a disconnect between what the region's governments or the region's ministries of education would want, as opposed to what CXE is willing to provide. And that would be also concerned, because if it is we are paying for a service and we're not getting what we're paying for, then that is something that we need to pay attention to. So it's bigger than just the issue that Jodie would have raised just now with regard to whether it is important or not. It has other kinds of implications down the road with regard to people's jobs, with regard to what we are paying for as opposed to what we are getting, and all of those considerations.
[00:12:44] Speaker A: Well, this is obviously a regional issue.
CXC on Caricom and somebody raised the issue of Jamaica and Jamaica raising questions as well. Has the announcement was made some time ago? Has Caricom, the secretariat, made any sort of pronouncement thus far as to how they intend to treat with us?
[00:13:04] Speaker D: Not as far as I'm aware. We would have heard, you know, bits and pieces. Our minister of education would have made an made proper announcement based on her, her information or lock thereof, because in her mind, she wasn't aware that this is something that was going to happen.
I am not sure if the other member states would have made statements. I certainly have not seen anything coming out of Caricomfort, but it's something that has to be discussed because CXE has made decisions over the years that impacted on terms and conditions of employment for teachers across the region.
We have accepted it as custom and practice. And then there's another, this seems to be another decision based on their, I guess, their cost factors or whatever they have to be dealing with. But they have to remember that they are being paid for a service. And if they're being paid for a service, it can't be that they are making a decision based on their own needs, without understanding or without considering the needs of the clients who are paying for the service.
[00:14:06] Speaker A: Yeah. What concerns me more and more, we speak about it this morning, and from the bits and pieces that I've read about it is the lack of consultation.
We've been discussing basically that all this morning, that from what teacher's perspective is that there needed to be a lot more discussion. Even the minister of education, when she spoke about it, you could tell that she did not necessarily have as much information or, or any more information than the other person about why CXE did this. And if we're, if we're to take what's taking place in Jamaica and all these other concerns that are being raised. That seems to be the, the overarching theme in this thing that we're here now. Where did this come from and why?
Jody White, you seem to be of a different opinion that it's not necessary.
[00:15:00] Speaker B: It's, it's the level of, it is important. If you look at the curriculum, if you look at what they're teaching, it is extremely practical, meaning that somebody could do this and actually implement this in real world situations immediately. So don't get me wrong, this is extremely, extremely practical and extremely useful. What I am saying is that I think that if we are going to look at keeping it, what are we really going to do to encourage more people to take it up and if possible, I don't know. I mean, we typically see CXC as things for teens. Is there an increased opportunity then for people who are older who want to go back and maybe study this and learn to get into the field, for them to take up this course as well? Because it's really not limited to teens. Teens mostly do it, but it should be open to other people as well. And there are alternate courses that people can take to teach them the same subject matter when they're older as well. So how critical is it? I don't think it's that critical, to be very honest with you. But it is very beneficial if we have a large sector of the population that has studied it.
[00:16:18] Speaker A: See, we are talking two different things here this morning because the perspective of tutors from a job security point of view, and Mister White, you are speaking to us from an industry value.
So those are two totally different discussions, even though it's about this very same thing. Because tutors, if I'm to glean correctly, tutors concern is about job security.
If you don't have these fields anymore, there's no need for the teachers anymore, and there's no need for the teachers anymore. What happens to them? How do we treat with that?
[00:16:57] Speaker C: Just to chime in a little bit, it's not only about job security. That's one of the concerns that we have. But I would have brought up the issue of the curriculum leaders, and Masha would have also indicated that there was this disconnect. So we have the caribbean leaders who are actually paying for CXE for the services that they provide, and they are saying that they have an initiative which is a 25 by 25 initiative recently concluded, and that seeks to reduce extra regional food import dependency by 25% by 2025. Right now, that's what they are saying so they are seeing this as curriculum leaders for their different states, that we want to reduce food security, and yet we have one of the providers of education within the Caribbean stating that they plan to remove the double award. Now, I understand Jodi's argument in terms of we have the single award and we have the double award. Now, one of the problems that we had in terms of schools is that in terms of the double award especially is that some schools were staffed for resources and labs. As a result of that, many of the schools took the decision not to offer the double hour because of the lack of resources for that particular offering. A number of them also were staff for land space. And I would give you an example, like for example, around West North Secondary School, they have a new school, but the old part of the building there is still there and that was supposed to be demolished and whatnot, so that there would be the additional space and whatnot for it. And that is just some of the issues. And I also raised the issue before that. The Ministry of Education in Trinidad and Tobago is going along a thematic school policy, and one of the major offerings there, right. Is agriculture. And if it is that we are making policy decisions regarding agriculture and then we do not have the supporting body in terms of what provides the education right for it, how are we going to fix that disconnect there? Or what are we really saying in terms of that? So we are saying that we have a policy on this, we have a policy on that, but the education policy doesn't mesh with it. And that's one of the concerns and the association have together with what is going to happen with all those teachers and whatnot, with the four subject areas, if they are not offered, are they going to be, you know, come into the system in terms of another, another offering, you know, what, in terms of their skill set? So those are some of the things that we have. So I understand the idea that, you know, we can do courses after and whatnot, but if the resources are there provided, right. The evidence has been there in the past that students would have offered up or would have taken up this double award. And as I said, especially in light of the decline in terms of the petrochemical industry, many of the students, right, they are opting to do a different option and they would like the opportunity. Right. To be given, you know, that pathway to fruitful employment going forward, because the jody identified the business of farming, crop production and animal production, right. And also the agriculture. But what is, what is important as well as that within that same curriculum CXE has identified 45, 47 career choices that could come about as a result of the, of agriculture or students taking part in agriculture. And those things are critical in terms of holistic development of the children, critical thinking of the children, the ability to problem solve and, of course, the ability to have a sustainable future in terms of farming and all the other associated professions that are available as a result.
[00:20:44] Speaker A: Would the discontinuation of these courses have any impact on further education, tertiary education? Are these courses prerequisites to any of the courses offered at UE or so on?
[00:20:57] Speaker C: Well, indeed, it would be an asset, for example, to go to AKF and of course, the Faculty of agriculture with the double o, that gives them that added advantage, right? With the single award it is possible, but with the double award it gives them that added advantage. Should students decide that this is the direction that they would like to go?
[00:21:17] Speaker A: You see, we have an absence of information in the discussion, and that is really the enrollment numbers, because that would paint a clearer picture for us, at least here at home, as to the relevance and the importance of these courses based on the persons who, the number of people that we have subscribing to these courses. But if you don't have that and we don't have that this morning, you're really having a discussion in a vacuum where you really can't judge, even though, yes, we are saying that there are ways and means of getting around it, which is what Jodie White is saying to us, and you all are outlining to us the disconnect between what the leaders are saying, the vision for the region, and some of these developments in education, the listener, the person listening in to us, I don't think they, they have a clearer idea for how they should feel about this thing as to whether or not it is as debilitating as one side is saying, or is it really much ado about nothing and that we can make up for it on another side?
Jody White, this question basically for you, having interacted with players in the industry, and you've said before that you believe that it is something that we can get around. Do we have the mechanisms in place for a plan B if these courses. Well, if CSE sticks to its position, yeah.
[00:22:44] Speaker B: You know, the Ministry of Agriculture has many things that are in place to help people cover the same sort of topic. Right. The things that students would learn, the ministry has in place. The question comes into play in that. Young kids being encouraged into this in school, they are going to study it, adults being asked to attend something voluntary, how many of them are actually going to attend. It's not always kind of clear cut. The next thing is that a lot of times what we see is that parents would be the ones with farms. Kids go to school and learn and may not necessarily want to enter the industry, but are able to help their parents with little tips and tricks that will help our farm become more efficient. You know, daddy, I went to school today and I see the cow doing this today. This is a sign of so and so. And you may not know. So the child may not really want to enter the field, but their knowledge can help the family business grow.
So it's pros and cons with everything thing. But again, I don't think that is critical. What I would say though is that it sends a bit of a negative message in that it's sending us that, well, this is not as important. You know what I mean? It's just the message that it sends that makes it feel a little bit. A little bit troublesome.
[00:24:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I understand exactly what you're saying. And that was probably the first impression that people who read the headline got, we need this thing anymore, so let's do away with it.
[00:24:18] Speaker D: Can I just add to the discussion here? I think we have to bear in mind that CXC is a business, right?
While they are in the business of education, in terms of certifying and qualifying citizens of the region, they are business. So if they make a decision to discontinue something, it has something to do with cost. Whether they believe it's beneficial, economic wise, to keep these offerings on the table when they feel many states or governments may not necessarily be subscribing to these areas. Now, whilst CARIcoM might have made a statement last year or earlier this year with regard to improving the agricultural sector, if you look at the individual member states, that might not necessarily be a national thrust at national levels. For some countries, it may be for Trinidad and Tobago, maybe Guyana, maybe Jamaica and one or two others. But this trust may not be as strong in other territories. So CXE may have made a preliminary decision based on what they are seeing there, and they will also make that decision based on how many students actually sign up to do the exams.
So it will not just be as simple as, well, we want to do this no more, we cutting it out. They will, they will have to probably do a cost benefit analysis to see whether or not it is profitable for them to continue offering the subject to territories. What is the. What is of concern here? And I think people are missing that point is the, as you would have pointed out, Mister Mahabira, the lack of consultation that has happened between the CXC and the member states who are paying for the service. So you can't just as a service provider, decide to cut a service when somebody is paying for that service, and it happens in Trinidad and Tobago all the time in different parts of the society, a service provider decides to change terms and conditions just like that. After you sign a contract and you're paying for the service to decide what we have, this again, the price we again, let's work for where is any, for what we are providing to you without, you know, any kind of effective, and because we have grown accustomed to that, we feel that there's something that is acceptable, it cannot be acceptable if we are paying for something. So that, that's the first thing. The second thing is we have to now take a look and see whether or not the lack of subscription to these subject areas did the agricultural science double award included, if it has anything to do with what the national thrust would be in terms of are we developing a particular sector, as Jodie would have identified just now? How are we doing that? What are the things that we, what are the structures or the programs we have in place to ensure that we have qualified persons, whether it's from CXC or otherwise, to fill that sector and to develop that sector. If we don't have any concrete plans, then all of this discussion will be just simply academic and not really looking at the root causes. So there are a lot of issues that are surrounding this. So it may seem on the surface as much ado about nothing, but it speaks to even deeper issues outside of the decision to take the subjects away that we may need to look at.
[00:27:46] Speaker A: Further, from the reading that I've done, based on what's in the news and all of that kind of thing, CXC seems to have left the door open for discussions with the various territories, but they seem to want to approach it from a territory by territory basis. Now, the position you've put forward is this is a regional thing and it needs to be dealt with from a regional perspective and not necessarily territorial.
CArIcOM, the secretariat has, from what you've said, made no pronouncement thus far. I don't know if this is something CAricoM will want to get themselves involved in, or they want to leave it up to the various territories to deal with it. But what is the next step from Tutor's perspective, what needs to be done.
[00:28:40] Speaker C: Right? So I think consultation is one of the critical things and as you indicated earlier, the absence of that vital information in terms of enrollment. Now I know that there has been some consultation in terms of the Technical vocational Teachers committee of the association. They have been speaking about a number of issues that they are having, especially with resources, or lack thereof, from the Ministry of Education or whatnot, to support these subjects like agricultural science, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering and whatnot, because there are some resources that would be needed in the schools to facilitate the full output of that particular, of those particular programs. And I know that the TVR teachers within the last couple years have been indicating that they have been stafford resources and as a result of that the students would have been short changed. And there is also lack of interest in the subject because, and the preparedness and the 100% preparedness is not there. Now. Currently the association is doing and its assessment together with the NTA to find out the real effect on that particular sector. And when we get that data, it's going to be critical. But we are, as we said, we are speaking in terms of, because that information is critical. And Masha also indicated that CXC would have acted on information and more than likely from a business perspective, and all of those things has to be considered in terms of, of making a final decision. That is why the consultation, I think that the next step should have been consultation where the agricultural sector, right. Jody and others in the agricultural sector, the Ministry of Education, CXC, have discussions in terms of the way forward because there are lots of, Jody made the point earlier on, there are lots of pros and cons regarding this particular situation and all of those things have to be aired, put on the table, have discussions, critical discussions on it, and then of course the best way forward to be implemented as a result of that.
[00:30:49] Speaker A: Yeah, one would hope that these discussions take place because CXC seems to be operating from a position of finality, that this is the decision we've made and we're sticking with it. So unless there's caricom intervention or these consultations that tutor is hoping takes place, it seems as though this is a done deal. So Mister White, let's, let's operate from the position that, well, nothing's going to change and that CXC is going to stick to its position. Let's, let's allow you to give some advice because you are of the opinion that this can, you could get around this. This is not a mountain that is insurmountable. So people listening who may have the parents or the children or students or whoever else who are impacted by this decision one way or the other. What's your advice to them?
[00:31:39] Speaker B: The Ministry of Agriculture and Trinidad actually has done a very good job in developing mechanisms to help educate people on these subject matters. A whole bunch of courses, extension officers, so many things that are available to people and I think that it will be necessary for people to go and seek it out.
It will be necessary for people to sign up for these courses and possibly for the regions, the other countries that may not have these things in place may be a transfer of knowledge from Trinidad to the other islands to help them get up to speed, to be able similar course, to be able to offer similar courses that will be necessary in developing the region as a whole to make up for this potential deficit from this being removed.
[00:32:27] Speaker A: Now we're going to have to leave our interview here this morning, but it's clear from the discussion that we have this morning that there are many different perspectives on what has happened.
Mister White is of the opinion that there are ways to get around this. Tutor is very concerned with the lack of consultation and the other impacts that can come from these courses being stopped. There is yet to be seen how CarIcom as a body deals with a decision like this. The minister of education has said to us that, well, Cxe said that there could be some discussions moving forward. She has not said whether or not the government has intended to have those discussions or not. So there is a lot that's still up in the air with this and the uncertainty, I'm assuming, is what tutor would have a lot of issues with. And I can understand why for the student population, I guess they'll be guided based on what transpires. But there is a lot to be left to be seen as to how this matter unfolds. I want to thank all three of you for being with us this morning and sharing the different perspectives on the matter because that's important, providing all the possibilities that exist or could happen or have happened and everything else so that the people listening in can have a clearer idea of what's going on, what probably should go on and how they should treat with this development moving forward. So thank all three of, I thank all three of you for being with us here this morning and engaging in this discussion, sharing insights. Depending on how this matter unfolds, we may need to have a part two, but we see how it goes. Thank you once again for being with us here this morning.
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