Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: We are chatting with the president of the Prison association of Trinidad and Tobago. Jared Gordon is back with me this morning. We talking relocation of Remaniard is about time, boy.
It's about time.
Good morning. You have a headphones there by chance?
[00:00:23] Speaker A: Okay. Yes, I now see it.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: Yeah, unravel that.
Because I feel this interview will be one that is spirited animated and we will take some calls. 625-2257. You hearing? Yes, nice and good man. So we're talking about the relocation of the Remanyard. And in case of those of you wondering why the conversation this morning. But it has been a topic fast far back as we could remember.
[00:00:45] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:00:46] Speaker B: And with that topic happening now it came up again in the public domain because a man was seen this time footage.
We catch him on a camera from our car. A man said look, look back. And Ali and Frederick street in port has been this early morning a little after eight throwing a bag over the Port of Spain prison wall into the yard.
Two bags. And he normally know.
[00:01:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:12] Speaker B: He even thought if a police vehicle was coming down the street he just throw the bag, pick up the next one straight holy pants. Because he never. They never have on a belt and hops breading across the Frederick street. Going across that street there up to Shafford Courts heading across the normal. Normal.
So now we have president.
Now let me start with you. What are your thoughts on that?
[00:01:35] Speaker A: The thing about it that has been happening for a long time, Davy.
And the strange thing. The strange thing is it has been and continues to be a tremendous challenge. They do it all around the prison, anywhere they.
And that particular gentleman strange enough, he was on bail, you know, I hear so. For doing the same thing in the Navy.
[00:02:00] Speaker B: I hear so. So let me ask you now, how did jail his boy that when he pelted over that part of the wall his land in the yard.
[00:02:07] Speaker A: That part there is a yard there. But they. They are not people there just like that.
And so we. So subsequent to that I know they did a search.
[00:02:20] Speaker B: They found anything.
[00:02:21] Speaker A: Yes, they found some items still. But we can't see if that was what was tossed.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: But what I say if you all if the prison know that this man this has. This has been done before and that portion of the yard. Why we not.
[00:02:36] Speaker A: No, not that is all over all around the prison.
[00:02:39] Speaker B: But it can land on the sea on the roof.
[00:02:41] Speaker A: So we have.
Well, they lost. Sometimes we do recover. You know, sometimes it falls right where because sometimes the people who throw in, they don't know the, the exact layout.
[00:02:52] Speaker B: Right.
[00:02:52] Speaker A: Of the inner workings. And so sometimes we do get some of the items, sometimes we don't. And the is the, sometimes we don't is the problem, Davy.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: Oh, sometimes you sit down there doing your duties. When you see the bag full, you want to know about what is this by you pick it up, you see a gun.
[00:03:08] Speaker A: Well, I know how we manage those things. Those things become evidence.
Obviously we're working with the police to ensure that we could bring some of these people. Well, evidence of the same gentleman would have been arrested and he's on bail. So there are people who are being.
[00:03:25] Speaker B: Arrested for these acts.
[00:03:28] Speaker A: Correct, Is right.
[00:03:28] Speaker B: But these things only happen in Port of Spain because of where the prison is located.
[00:03:31] Speaker A: Because of the same thing. It's right there. It's bordered by four major streets in.
[00:03:37] Speaker B: Port of Spain and major thoroughfare. You're talking Frederick Street.
Frederick street in Port of Spain, for those of you who don't know, that's a downtown shopping center as well.
[00:03:45] Speaker A: Correct. And so the, the whole thing, you know, with the minister, I made the call and have been making that call more than possibly a year.
Calls were made before.
What I must say is that I am very pleased that we are getting the sort of positive attention in relation to determining exactly if we are to, how we are to. You know, that is very important also and I think it presents a very interesting opportunity for the Trinidad and Tobago Prison Service if we are able to manage that movement in a way that could once again lend to us meeting our mandate.
[00:04:28] Speaker B: It would be remiss of me if I didn't ask you this question and I will be taking some calls on this topic as well.
Minister of Homeland Security Roger Alexander talked about the El Salvador's approach to crime in Trinidad and Tobago. We saw what that president did when he built this major state of the art facility.
I looked at the documentaries on it. It's housing some 80 persons in a cell. Concrete slab. Beer. Beer essential but very clean though I must say the persons look clean, but it's. I, I don't. We ain't smell any people through the.
[00:05:09] Speaker A: Tv, but no, they look clean.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: Yeah, but gangs are housed there. They tolerate. There's a zero tolerance for any fighting at all.
You could face some very harsh punishments.
[00:05:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:24] Speaker B: And people were kicking up about it in Trinidad and Tobago and saying that we had to be careful with adopting that style because what happened, some innocent people also was arrested.
[00:05:36] Speaker A: In any system, no system is 100.
[00:05:39] Speaker B: Foolproof but what the minister of defense in that country was saying is that hey, casualties of war suffer that to be. So if it's about two or three people, we will try and get them out. Some was held innocently, we'll try and find them.
[00:05:51] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:05:52] Speaker B: But if that is to make sure that the place safe. When you look around because of how.
[00:05:57] Speaker A: Terrible the crime situation was in El Salvador, it was terrible. It was really, really brutal. Now the thing about it and what we must be mindful of, I always speak about this.
Seeing the facility is one thing. You see the unseen, you see all the supporting cast that is required to ensure at that same facility in El Salvador.
You see in a thing, all right, it look clean or 80 people in a cell thing how much staff is assigned to that facility. But what is the support system that.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: They have in place providing food?
[00:06:33] Speaker A: Remember, it's human beings. So there's human waste to manage.
All of these support systems that people don't really think about sometimes have the potential to impact that same nice place that you're looking at in a very negative way. And we see in that right, right here in Trinidad and Tobago, the maximum security prison.
Well, let's not even talk about Port of Spain Prison when we talk about ecrc, when we talk about Carrera Convict prison. All of our facilities, all are facing various challenges as it relates to the onslaught seen.
[00:07:15] Speaker B: And we want to talk about that this morning. Now it's a couple things that, that came to mind that you mentioned.
You talk about the unseen facilities, the human waste. Now when it's in El Salvador, when I do some research on it, it's be essential, isn't it? It's rice and peas, you know, is that not major. You know, is that they eat that way to eat it.
[00:07:32] Speaker A: Yeah, but you see, it's wrong. But it comes at a cost.
[00:07:35] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:07:36] Speaker A: If we have, if we have and there's the whole thing that we have to be mindful of and I would want to guard people against and that is this whole issue of lock them up through a. With the key and, and however, you know, they out they're not, they're not in society. So we care give them anything to eat, put them anywhere to lie down. That is a, that is not the, the, the, the right way to approach this.
[00:08:04] Speaker B: Have we.
[00:08:05] Speaker A: Because go ahead and I know. Have we reached the level of maturity for that?
I know that.
[00:08:12] Speaker B: Are we there yet?
[00:08:13] Speaker A: I think we could get there when people start to believe and feel that justice is being done. Because notwithstanding the fact that we have Incarcerated persons. Are you feeling safer as a citizen of Trinidad and Tobago? Do you feel that when you see this one murdered, this one assaulted, this robbery happened, the thief, this car. Are you the citizen feeling as if justice is being done?
[00:08:47] Speaker B: No.
[00:08:48] Speaker A: And that is the bigger question.
[00:08:49] Speaker B: So let me ask you this. We're talking about relocation. Do you think the time has come also for us to look at seriously of removing the sport of Spain prison, Demolishing that area or even if you refurbish it for museum, for museum purposes. You could probably do that, turn it into some.
[00:09:09] Speaker A: Those things have been there. There are a number of issues and it's not only, and I'm glad you said, mandate people from Port of Spain. Now remember that Port of Spain prison is where our gallows are located.
That is the only place in Trinidad that you can carry out the death penalty.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: At the moment.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: At the moment.
And based on what our new prime minister has said, where they are seriously looking to resume hangings?
I am saying that we could look at. It's a possibility. You maintain, you maintain the gallows, you maintain the convicted condemned area, but certainly the remandees need to go.
[00:10:01] Speaker B: I remember years ago I would have been doing some training and the training took me in the skies. And when I flew over certain parts of central Southland, you know, there's a lot of land, land space in remote areas.
Your visitor tongue. I'm not saying that we go, I'm part prison in all your community. Please do not think that's what I'm saying. But when you visit us a tongue, an area like Mamaral, when you go into that space, you tell yourself you're somewhere deep moruga. But you're really central. You know, the area and the environment looks like a real country vibes. You get a country feeling in the, in the, in the city, in the little town village of Mamaral, that sense of camaraderie with, you know, the neighbors around, everybody, you know, you're getting that kind of vibes in there. But when I look at facilities in the U.S.
el Salvador and other countries where they build state of the art prison facilities, it's always off into a remote area with a, with a long road, well secured. And you can't be on that road just so.
[00:11:09] Speaker A: No.
[00:11:10] Speaker B: So if those persons are there and we build something, we gotta build our flats. You can, you. Those prisons can carry stories.
[00:11:17] Speaker A: You could go up. Yes.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: You could go what, five, five, six stories high?
[00:11:21] Speaker A: Nine.
[00:11:22] Speaker B: Nine stories high. Cages, cells, cell blocks. Well, not cages, but cell blocks and, and cells with the Doors and press a button. Doors open this, you can do that. So persons who are convicted can be housed in a particular area.
Persons who are on remand. And of course with the remandees, depending on your crime.
[00:11:43] Speaker A: Well, the classification of remember, remandi is what accused. You can't say their crime, what they.
[00:11:51] Speaker B: Have, what they've been accused of.
[00:11:52] Speaker A: Accused of. Accused of. Alleged.
[00:11:54] Speaker B: It's alleged. So the alleged accused, based on what we. Hold your phone, what we are accusing you of, we put you here. You can't pick up a man with maintenance and payment, a man who is a sexual friend, defender, which happens, or a rapist or a murderer, which.
[00:12:07] Speaker A: Which happens.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: Which is what's going on now.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: So the thing about it is that when I said earlier, it provides an opportunity.
Even now we see where the courts are requesting reports as it relates to what programs the remanded individual.
[00:12:23] Speaker B: That's a waste of time. We spoke about that at length.
How could you know what to rehabilitate them on if they haven't been convicted of something?
[00:12:29] Speaker A: So they. The thing about it is that we have to look at not stating rehabilitation, but as long as they are there, understanding that the prison has no control over how long the individual stays with us, the remanded individual.
We are seeing more and more that there is a responsibility on us to provide an opportunity for them to take part in some sort of. Sort of vocation, something. Even if it's going back to school, even if it's learning that trade, even if it's even possibly looking at changing the rules to allow them to work. There are so many things that we have to do because the fact is you have somebody sitting there for 10, 12, 15 years, and that is really three years is plenty.
You could do so much. And I always say, if you want to figure out how. How much time that is, you think about 15 years ago, where you were true and how many things you would have done and where you would have gone and experience and learned. So the thing about it is that on this whole issue of relocation, it is more for me, I am looking at it as an opportunity to. For us to possibly get a new facility. Something that has been on the drawing boards for a while that would enable us to meet those challenges, create an environment where we could increase our efficiency and certainly all of that feeding straight back into the maintenance of public safety.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: All right, so we want to invite some calls in at this time as we move forward with the interview. 625, 22, 57 and 627 also your WhatsApp messages as well. Let's take a call. Hello. Good morning.
[00:14:24] Speaker C: Morning to Davy and morning to guests.
[00:14:26] Speaker A: Morning.
[00:14:27] Speaker C: One of the areas I, I hear.
[00:14:31] Speaker A: On this program with Davies guests is a lot of of areas where we.
[00:14:36] Speaker C: Can do things to get remedial work.
[00:14:39] Speaker A: And you talk about the gallows and everything.
What I don't get sometimes from people.
[00:14:44] Speaker C: Is you just mentioned El Salvador. What the parliament gave to the president was authority.
Why don't we mention the parliament giving that sort of leeway in this country?
[00:15:00] Speaker A: I listen.
[00:15:01] Speaker B: All right, thank you very much.
[00:15:03] Speaker A: Very good point.
[00:15:04] Speaker B: That's a good point. Now the thing about it is. Let me take another call here. The thing for me is what has our administration been doing passed and previous.
Well akashic for this administration as yet because they, they're in office what a month and something daily. They barely touch the scratchy surface of office work and governance right now. But we had 10 years of the PNM. We had the people's partnership back then. We had the PNM previously to that any other UNC government, another PNM. So you had them 12 coming in and traversing but none of them have ever looked.
[00:15:37] Speaker A: Well, I wouldn't say that, you know.
[00:15:38] Speaker B: Well, even if they did, how come it never came up again?
[00:15:41] Speaker A: The, the. The maximum security prison, that new facility that was constructed under I think the, the. The Basdo Pandey msp. Right. The administration that moved to justice.
Although littered with all the other things. Section 34. But let me ask the, the. The thing about it is that while there a number of strides were made.
[00:16:08] Speaker B: Now MSP was built. Yeah, MSP was built. I was always against it because in my mind building it in an area where residents are. I, I found that no you needed to be away. You see where Carrera is. If you could demolish Carrera and rebuild it, that would be fine. How's them fellas? And then temporary some way and, and rebuild Carrera. Don't refurbish it, you know, because they have a way to come and pop plaster on the wall here and fix it. Don't refurbish it. Rebuild it. The infrastructure is over 100 years old. Rebuild it over 200 years. Rebuild Carrera and you look where that is.
[00:16:44] Speaker A: But, but I want. You don't get vex with me for pressing this point.
Whether refurbish or demolish and construct brand new or look at our green site and prepare a site and prepare a.
[00:17:03] Speaker B: Site and put something.
[00:17:04] Speaker A: One of the things that the service has suffered with Is this whole issue of maintenance of the plant.
A building is not designed to last forever. As evident of us being in the position that we are.
Systems fail.
And with the advance in technology, correctional technology, access control, their new systems as it relates, even for monitoring and video camera and security, all the world has gone ahead by leaps and bounds. But these things are not a put in and forget it. It's not a one hit wonder. These things need. So I am believing that point because I want people to get in their mind that these things come at a cost. And the cost, the initial course is not the true cost.
After the equal sign, how are we maintaining the plant, the locks, the gates, the fences, the cameras.
Simple thing as air conditioning, because you have server room and all these sort of things going on. The computers, the back end for a lot of what is happening. Providing spaces to do how you're doing. All of it is not simply we build a place, we put them inside there. Okay, how much it holding? 800, right? It hold 800, but 800 plus the staff who need to be supported by a structure, a system and a system that would lend to them being able to function, meaning the staff, effectively and efficiently. And that we are able to provide the minimum requirement to those who are incarcerated.
[00:18:50] Speaker B: So doesn't that lend to the opportunity for employment and sustainable employment in this country?
[00:18:57] Speaker A: Certainly.
[00:18:57] Speaker B: Hello. Good morning.
[00:18:59] Speaker C: Maybe.
[00:19:00] Speaker B: Good morning.
[00:19:01] Speaker A: I must include again.
[00:19:02] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:19:03] Speaker C: We're talking about hanging, we're talking about incarcerated, we talking all kind of things.
[00:19:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:07] Speaker C: What about the whole question to reduce recidivism?
[00:19:11] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:19:11] Speaker C: Because I remember Leroy Clark said, when.
[00:19:14] Speaker A: You start hanging people for keeping billions, then you support the hanging.
[00:19:18] Speaker C: So we want to give way. We have laws that we should be created. What about those aspects of the parliament bringing in things measures to avoid recidivism?
[00:19:29] Speaker A: If recidivism is such a multi tiered thing. It's one word, but it's broad. It's broad because then what is recidivism? How do we measure it? Do we say that if somebody offended, they were convicted, placed behind, if they serve their time, they come out, what time are we saying? Did they reoffend in one year, a year later, five years down the road?
[00:19:55] Speaker B: Was it the same offense that they.
[00:19:57] Speaker A: Got that they were caught up in? Well said. It is a very, it seems simple, but it is a very, very complex issue in measuring recidivism. And then how do we measure it? If we have, if we have a number of people being held in reman upwards of five, six years.
[00:20:20] Speaker B: Well said, man. Good Morning.
[00:20:22] Speaker C: Good morning. Good morning. I didn't get your guest name, Sorry.
[00:20:25] Speaker B: Jared Gordon.
[00:20:27] Speaker A: Oh, good morning.
[00:20:28] Speaker C: Good morning to Mr. Gordon.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: Morning.
[00:20:30] Speaker C: I listened to Mr. Gordon when I came and you're talking about, of course, the e just asked by that individual, Tron contraband. But it will be remiss of me to also signal to you for the year so far, Mr. Gordon, I've been keeping check.
[00:20:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:41] Speaker C: And we are close to four prison officers.
[00:20:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:46] Speaker C: Who have also been arrested and charged for contraband and.
[00:20:51] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:20:53] Speaker C: And that is something that affects the organization.
[00:20:57] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:20:58] Speaker C: And of course it gives credence somewhat. So when you see persons reading and seeing, well, four officers carrying marijuana cigarettes, all sorts of contraband, I can take a chance and throw it over the wall. And while I agree that there must be a zero tolerance to such approach.
[00:21:13] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:15] Speaker C: It really stigmatized the person's service.
[00:21:18] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:21:18] Speaker C: Before I go quickly, the issue about buildings and upkeeping. I'm hoping that this Justice Minister, I looked at some of their policies And I'm hoping Mr. Mirage, the honorable minister.
[00:21:32] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:33] Speaker C: Will focus on getting corporate city involved in terms of bringing back some of those prisons up to standard. You cannot have a prison population of close to 4,000 and you cannot utilize those persons inside there, most of who are presumed innocent until guilty, and not utilize them to upkeep the facility and have it derelict. So maybe as part of the sentencing, once you are participating in repainting the building, keeping it up to a standard, you have a reduced sentence. If you are deemed guilty of an offense, maybe that is something that they have to look at, incorporate. Have a good morning, gentlemen.
[00:22:14] Speaker B: All right, thank you.
[00:22:15] Speaker A: So two things I think we. The Tran Tobago Prison Service, with all the stigma, continues to be one of those agencies that actively pursue errant officers.
We actively. So four is good for me is not good enough.
It have some people we need to see gone. So I am in full support. I doesn't even feel though how my only dis. My only thing that does feel kind of, you know, people just paint everybody with a broad brush.
But certainly the service wants to see the backs of those people who. Not doing what they're supposed to do and trafficking. The other thing that the. That the caller spoke to was utilizing the inmates to clean up. Yes, we utilize them, but the resources, the cleaning agent, the disinfectant, all these things are a problem in the back end. Wow.
[00:23:10] Speaker B: Hello. Good morning.
[00:23:12] Speaker A: Hello, good morning, good morning, good morning.
[00:23:14] Speaker C: Conversation this morning and I agree with Davy about, you know, moving that prison from in the city and putting some Isolated and that kind of thing. Yeah, because I mean in this day and age, I think the, the whole goal behind having the person so close to the magistrate is because of the, the, the transportation and that kind of thing.
But I mean in this time we have virtual courts going on. You don't need to be present in court, you know. Yeah, you could get up out of the city and I will take care. Some of the problems that people throwing stuff into the prison.
[00:23:53] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:23:54] Speaker C: The whole thing, I'm a cranery.
Time is big business. There's a lot of people in high office that feed off of us and if we don't acknowledge that and we don't understand that, then we can't move forward.
[00:24:07] Speaker B: All right, thank you very much. And I, I support that because it, if the prison is built in an area and as I said, if you're worried about land space, you could have about three, four buildings, four compounds, multi storied compounds. So you have an area where you have the remand section, you have an area for convicted felons and of various crimes, and you have two buildings for that or whatever the case is in this compound. And it's well secured and guarded at all times with some, some towers. It's always guarded. I, I don't see why we can't centralize and have that in one isolated area that the average citizen cannot traverse and get there. Because the perimeter, the compound is monitored 247 and well secured. And well secured. And that is security for the prison officers, for the prisoners themselves and for civilians and citizens of the country.
[00:25:04] Speaker A: Correct. Now the, the caller, the last caller touched on something about the closeness and you know, incidentally, I was having a discussion with one of our ex commissioners.
I don't know, even if he does listen to freedom, we have to encourage him.
Mr. Abraham. And what he was saying is, you know, back in the day when you have to establish a city, there were three things that were necessary.
So you have the police station, one, you have the prison and you have a church.
And when you look at it, when you look at it, look at St. Joseph, which was our first capital police church. You have the church at the top of the hill, the police station right at the bottom. And there was a prison south of the Bashoot.
So everything, so everything was right there. And it facilitated that back then. It didn't have virtual court back then, all this transport. So yeah, right there, right there. Everybody right there, right there.
[00:26:06] Speaker B: We sort it out.
[00:26:06] Speaker A: Yeah, we sort out, we sort out what a hang hang. Who had a ting Ting at a beriber.
And we're good. But the thing about it is that in moving forward, I am hopeful that we begin to embrace the direction technology allows for us to go down to having visits.
We could read. There are certain jurisdictions that the person don't have to be there physically next to you to get a visit.
You could do that virtually too.
It's just a matter of providing the necessary framework and technology, all the hardware and software to be able to do that. There are a lot of things that we are able to do.
[00:26:54] Speaker B: And you're fine with those virtual visits. I love that idea and thank you very much for bringing that to the table. With those virtual visits, inmates cannot just see one person for lack of. For want of security measures. Only one person allowed to come in. And children can't come into the prison. If you're on a virtual visit, you could see a baby born.
Your baby, if you're locked up while she was pregnant, you could see your children, they could see you. You know, you all could have those screen conversations.
[00:27:21] Speaker A: And there's not this issue of, okay, you can't Latin children under come into the prison. The logistics of coming, we. I mean, you. I show you doing it to Davy, you doing electronic transfer of funds.
You're able to top up the inmates so they have access to the canteen and all purchase what they need to purchase and that sort of thing, reducing that whole issue. I mean, we have an issue with the Tobago prison. We have inmates both convicted and remand. They find themselves in Trinidad, their family is in Tobago. The logistics of. For the Tobagonian.
[00:27:59] Speaker B: Are you kidding me?
[00:28:00] Speaker A: Yeah. For them to come and then is take the boat or catch the plane, it costs them more.
Take a day from work, they can run away and say, well, I go.
[00:28:10] Speaker B: In and look for X and drop this.
[00:28:12] Speaker A: They don't have that.
[00:28:13] Speaker B: They had to leave Tobago, travel to Trinidad, and if they didn't get our flight back out or boat to go.
[00:28:19] Speaker A: Back down to spend the night here, you understand?
[00:28:21] Speaker B: Wow, that is a very interesting point. And as the president of the association, you know, we could talk about Tobago prisons as well. Good morning.
[00:28:28] Speaker D: Good morning, Davy. Good morning to your guest.
[00:28:30] Speaker A: Morning, sir.
[00:28:31] Speaker B: I agree.
[00:28:32] Speaker D: For you see that virtual visit, I think that will eliminate part of the bureaucracy of people having to come to the prison to visit their loved ones inside it. You have a virtual visit and you're comfortable. Secondly, some years I wore the government of the day tried to ease the prison crowd by, you know, passing legislative laws to say, well, if you just have A feast check we will let you go but has that created a great impact on the prison population or do we find the population at the same speed because of other things now and thirdly that prison in Port of Spain. Yeah it's about time they moved that majesty take landscape somewhere else and have everything in our one stop shop at church our police station the persons with the different compartments for bad bad not.
[00:29:28] Speaker B: So bad medium wherever things well there's a threat level not bad not so bad but the threat level but I get where you're coming from caller thank you so much the bad not so bad we're taking it it's the threat level the threat level to to our fellow inmates to the prison officers themselves and what we are getting from the president of the prisons association this morning is the infrastructure needed on the back end that we don't see the unseen staff the unseen now we know you.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: Already do see us and we further.
[00:30:03] Speaker B: Unseen again we well hidden so just.
[00:30:06] Speaker A: Imagine you know we go into some place far off into Wonderland how many.
[00:30:11] Speaker B: Female announcers you know he had freedom one she says to tell you a resounding good morning. She said yeah I'm a partner.
[00:30:19] Speaker A: Yeah I'm a partner. She said I'm a partner Morning morning.
[00:30:25] Speaker B: Carrie I know I'm gonna see you there's Gary bus stick it sometimes.
[00:30:31] Speaker A: Don'T.
[00:30:32] Speaker B: Interfere with that I know Carrie I never give me a bus ride boy Carrie V Good morning to you thank you very much. Your partner said to tell your morning from the time I ask him he say one so we having conversations we're going to keep the president with us in the next hour at least we know we continue our discussions as we take your phone calls this morning and your whatsapps Good morning David boy tell.
[00:30:52] Speaker D: Me morning listening here now police officers have a lot of pirates and life in Asia but I watch and I've stayed here for over the years where prison officer life is more in danger because criminals did this directly with and these criminals have no fear for prison officers have a little respect for same police too but they have more respect for police than prison officers I would think that I don't know why I have relatives in the service I don't know why all governments stick in with fes for prison officers Prison officers you do an assessment for them if they do have domestic problems and they're not drinking rum all over the place because if you will and they're going to drum so I would think that this government are hoping that Kamla listen to this call that prison officers should be given a firearm. Firearm. Armed prison officers, all who qualify. Thanks a lot, sir.
[00:31:48] Speaker B: All right, thank you very much.
One text. I saying to you, Gerard, that now that cannabis is decriminalized, why wouldn't people who got held with small quantity be pardoned with a fine or community work? They already spent a decade in jail for the offense.
[00:32:03] Speaker A: No, I don't. We have not. Well, as far as I know we have. Once you are below the threshold, I don't know what it is exactly.
[00:32:12] Speaker B: No, but we're talking about persons who were held before. No, I am all them people.
[00:32:17] Speaker A: I want to say with. Don't hold me to it. I will have to check too. But I fully believe there is. We have no one locked up for those small quantities of marijuana.
[00:32:29] Speaker B: All right, one person is saying good morning Devi and your guest. My question is why not put nets around the royal jail to catch items thrown over until the prison is removed.
[00:32:42] Speaker A: We do have some nets.
[00:32:44] Speaker B: I know, I saw some.
[00:32:45] Speaker A: Yeah, we do have some.
[00:32:46] Speaker B: I saw areas.
[00:32:47] Speaker A: It's just that based on weird out of say we have some nets.
That is what I will say.
[00:32:56] Speaker B: What you will see. All right, we have some.
[00:32:58] Speaker A: So we have some nets. But once again, nothing is 100 foolproof and you keep knocking, knocking, knocking, knocking, knocking out a door. Eventually you might throw 10 things and eventually we capture, we capture six. But before and as I said earlier is what we don't get is what you're worried about does be the problem.
[00:33:19] Speaker B: All right, so as we continue with our calls this morning, 625-2257 we are taking your calls as we move up to the hour of 8 o' clock the news and then we give you a quick sports report and then we come back. We keep judged for at least 10 minutes in the next hour. We continue our discussions this morning we're dealing with the removal of the Port of Spain prison. I want to ask you this question before we take the break and go to the news. Why is it so prudent now? I mean this call has been a clariant one for as far back as we can remember. But why now? Why is the call heightened now that you feel.
[00:33:51] Speaker A: Could I. What I, what I would say is that the call wasn't heightened. You know, did you. We finally got somebody who listened.
[00:34:00] Speaker B: Repeat.
[00:34:01] Speaker A: The call was not heightened.
We have somebody who is listening. Who is listening.
[00:34:10] Speaker B: And that is a. You know, you said a lot without saying much.
[00:34:14] Speaker A: I, I rest my head.
[00:34:16] Speaker B: You said a lot with. Without saying much.
I want to get your Thoughts on the resumption of hangings in the next hour. I mean, as a prison officer yourself and being in the service for a number of years, you would have seen some of the challenges prison officers face along with inmates as well. We take that much needed commercial break that's coming up. And of course, in the next hour, for at least 10 minutes to 15, we'll have the president of the Prisons Association, Gerard Gordon, with us. Your calls, your WhatsApp messages. We continue to invite them to keep your messages a minute and under. And we ask him and we'll see if you get some answers on that. Stick around. And we want to talk. We are chatting very briefly again here with the president of the Prisons Association, Jared Gordon, who apparently has friends in this building.
Jared have friends?
I always thought it was me.
I thought when I and Jared bongs every time Jared is on program, he's always happy. We talk so much in detail about prison officers, prisoners. And next thing you know, I get a message on my, on the phone here, big hellos, I'm a partner when I ask the question, folks. Or they could check us out. We streaming live and see this man's mind. Yes, I know this person. Good morning. I'm a brethren.
Good morning, caller. Welcome to the program. Hello.
[00:35:33] Speaker C: Hello.
[00:35:33] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:35:34] Speaker B: Morning.
[00:35:34] Speaker C: Hey, Davy. I was on fire. While I'm all tuning and I heard, I said this. Yeah, this man's only prison here.
[00:35:42] Speaker A: Morning.
[00:35:43] Speaker C: Welcome, sir. I'm a regular caller to the program.
[00:35:45] Speaker A: Morning.
[00:35:46] Speaker C: And I know I always call on all national issues.
[00:35:48] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:35:48] Speaker C: I want to ask you what, what, officer? What are the prison at the prison authority?
[00:35:54] Speaker A: Well, I'm the currently the president of the Prison Officers Association.
[00:35:59] Speaker C: All right, nice meeting you. All right.
Do you think, guys, I have a, a little suggestion concerning the prison. Right. I think our prison system need reform anyway. Like, you know, you have so many skilled people into the prison and so on and strong young people and so on. Unless you have elders that are there a long while. Yeah, I was thinking of it more. I don't know, I don't know how to research the models across the world. But it's always my idea for us here. If we can have a more notary habitat, then I won't bite off my tongue.
[00:36:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:32] Speaker C: And I want millions following, you know, like, yeah, we can have a nice agricultural program, whatever skill they can do.
[00:36:38] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:36:38] Speaker C: So they cannot help. Help the community in terms of like you have construction, we're going on government building those in different areas and you have them working and so on. And you can Even divert that, that, that, that income. They make taxes on their families that are starved up income while they are incarcerated. Yeah, comment on that, on that suggestion that.
[00:37:01] Speaker B: All right, thank you. All right.
[00:37:03] Speaker A: Yeah. The thing about it is that we do there is prison industry to a certain degree, but it is not as, how to put it, as widespread as I think we would want it to be.
But certainly that is something that we have been looking at for a number of years. The agriculture we do, we used to have old gangs going out at one point in time and they still do and to assist the community.
And so this is something that, what, although operating in the space, certainly it needs to be looked at and, and possibly how to put it increased so that we could utilize those skills for the benefit of society.
[00:37:46] Speaker B: Well said. Good morning.
[00:37:48] Speaker C: Hello, Good morning.
[00:37:49] Speaker A: Good morning.
[00:37:50] Speaker C: Yes, I just wanna touch on the point the last caller made because that was a sentiment of mine as well in terms of having inmates for maintenance. So you lock up a father for lack of maintenance, but while he is incarcerated, the mother gets no money.
So use them in a program, even if it's agriculture. And weekly they earn and a percentage of the monies towards the maintenance of the child because sometimes when they too.
[00:38:23] Speaker A: Are released from prison, they have no.
[00:38:25] Speaker C: Money to even restart life.
[00:38:27] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:38:28] Speaker C: So that in itself would lead possibly to a return to criminal offenses.
[00:38:33] Speaker B: No, but let me, let me correct you there. If I could chime in very quickly while we have you on the line, the maintenance charges and, and fees when you are held, and Gerard could chime in on this as well. If I'm, if I'm speaking out of context here.
While you are locked up, the fee ain't going away. No, no, for you to come out, the fee have to be paid. So if they hold you on $20,000, you're owing 20,000 backlog on, on child maintenance and they hold you for 20. That while you are held there, if you stay a month or two months, that is 20 plus year, two months, you know, so while you seeing the child and getting nothing, that man incarcerated there, oh, held on that maintenance warrant cannot come back out unless somebody somewhere pays that fee. And a part of it, at least some agreement or arrangement comes in and they pay a 10,000 and they say, well, could we get him? And he comes out and he go back to work on the premise to pay. If he doesn't, he will be rehealed again, but don't feel that he serve a little time for the 10,000 or 5,000 outstanding.
[00:39:37] Speaker C: What I meant is for Study money isn't backlog.
[00:39:39] Speaker B: It is. That's what I'm telling you.
[00:39:41] Speaker A: No, that is what she was saying. She was saying when he's incarcerated or how he earn it provide an opportunity for him to earn something through work.
[00:39:50] Speaker B: No. Well, that is impossible.
[00:39:52] Speaker A: Don't say that. That impossible.
[00:39:53] Speaker B: How is it, how is it that he going to be incarcerated and he could earn true work?
[00:39:56] Speaker A: Because.
And I saw the previous scholar talk about he didn't look at the different models and whatnot. But there are places in the. Where they sentence here. There's where we get into alternatives to incarceration and conditional release programs. So there is a way because it's in other parts of the world. That's how it is. You are. Let's be using the same maintenance you must serve up.
[00:40:19] Speaker B: Thank you caller. Thank you.
[00:40:21] Speaker A: A particular portion or. Or whatever the custodial sentence is. But you are allowed to work. You know, you remember you are not a criminal. You know the, the, the crime or offense.
[00:40:34] Speaker B: The offense. You're not a criminal.
[00:40:36] Speaker A: You, you are not a criminal. And in certain jurisdictions you have people actually who go to work.
Those salaries are garnished. A portion of it goes towards the.
[00:40:47] Speaker B: The backlog of the.
[00:40:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:48] Speaker B: So. So is it that we could look at a model where. Because some people are employed.
But let's say, let's say you wasn't working for a while.
[00:40:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:57] Speaker B: And you didn't pay maintenance. You rack up a 5,000 or 10,000 on your bill. One. Right. And you get a job. You finally get a job. You working at some supermarket somewhere. They hold you and they hold you.
[00:41:10] Speaker A: It's a vicious cycle.
[00:41:11] Speaker B: Not only that, it's a stupid way because now that they hold you, you lock up your employer. ACU come to work. There's abandonment. Maybe somebody could go and say well you know, he has been held by put. When we time you we hear police and lock you up. We automatically feel something some criminal thing you did.
[00:41:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:26] Speaker B: We not you might say, well it's maintainers. He ain't pay maintenance and he get hold. So some family member or friend might tell the employers but the employers work out to get done. You was hired for this. While you're not here you got to pull somebody else. So you lose your job. When you do. If, if somebody some and somewhere pay the fine for the fees when you come out now you're back on the grind.
[00:41:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Correct.
[00:41:49] Speaker B: And then you're owing your hand to whoever you.
[00:41:50] Speaker A: So this way all of these things are. All of these things are so Complex in nature, but they are not insurmountable.
It's just that we need people who could think dynamically to address what the real issue is. And the issue with maintenance is ensuring that the children are supported.
And so how does in having the person incarcerated or how could we have that when the person is incarcerated, they are still able to meet in some way that thing. But I'll tell you a story. There was a woman. Woman who they for say maintenance and she refused to pay. She said the children will get big, but she will never pay a dollar.
And she will go out, they will hold her, she will come back in a woman.
[00:42:41] Speaker B: But when she gets held and she's.
[00:42:43] Speaker A: Depends without going into too much of the mechanics. It is based on what the. The court says.
There are different terms based on that.
[00:43:00] Speaker B: You can't be that vague, buddy. Because. No, no, no, no. I'm not accepting that. Because.
[00:43:05] Speaker A: Okay, so what variant could be there? Because here what I'm saying, I ain't.
[00:43:08] Speaker B: Pay your whole man.
[00:43:10] Speaker A: Yeah. I refuse to pay because part of my. Okay, so you're being held not until you're paying.
There's a period of time that you, you, you, you could spend in one instance. On the other instance you could pay and get out.
But they will say serve a sentence of three months of simple imprisonment for non maintenance.
[00:43:35] Speaker B: Gerard, you're touching on something here that you're forcing me to ask you this question. I dig it. So this person is held for not paying child maintenance.
[00:43:45] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:43:46] Speaker B: And the Americas is called a child support. You in pay a child support Billy time. And so you're owing this 5,000 we hold. Gerard.
[00:43:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:54] Speaker B: Gerard lockup.
[00:43:55] Speaker A: I am seeing DV.
[00:43:57] Speaker B: What happens then for you to come.
[00:43:58] Speaker A: Out that it's not a broad brush.
You're continuing to want to put things in one particular way.
[00:44:05] Speaker B: Are you saying it's different strokes for different folks?
[00:44:09] Speaker A: I am saying that the magistrate looks at each case on a case by case basis.
[00:44:18] Speaker B: Okay, pal, back it up. Right.
[00:44:20] Speaker A: And I want you to hear this.
[00:44:21] Speaker B: No.
[00:44:22] Speaker A: Before this whole maintenance thing.
The understanding is between who and who.
[00:44:30] Speaker B: It's between the mother of the child, the magistrate and the.
[00:44:35] Speaker A: No, no, no. As soon as you go before the.
[00:44:38] Speaker B: Court, it's between the court and the man.
[00:44:40] Speaker A: It's between the court and the man.
[00:44:41] Speaker B: Or the woman, whoever had to pay.
[00:44:43] Speaker A: Or the woman or whoever.
[00:44:44] Speaker B: It's between the court and that person who has to pay the maintenance.
[00:44:46] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:44:48] Speaker B: So when the woman takes out a warrant because she keep going up in.
[00:44:50] Speaker A: The court, she can take out and.
[00:44:52] Speaker B: They see not, no, not take out, but sign. Sign the warrant.
[00:44:55] Speaker A: What happens is that the agreement is that you pay x amount at a particular point in time.
[00:45:01] Speaker B: You pay that to the court, not the woman.
[00:45:03] Speaker A: The, the. The woman will go or the man will go to the courts to receive.
[00:45:09] Speaker B: And receive whatever remittance, right? They go there should have been there.
[00:45:12] Speaker A: There is nothing there, right? They inform the court, listen, I've not received right? Xyz.
And then the court is informed and they issue a warrant.
[00:45:27] Speaker B: So the woman do have to sign no warrant.
[00:45:30] Speaker A: No, that is not how that does go.
[00:45:32] Speaker B: Because I often hear in the, in the.
[00:45:34] Speaker A: I went and I went. All they do is report, listen, I have not received. And of course the records will be.
[00:45:40] Speaker B: There that you did not.
[00:45:41] Speaker A: That you didn't pay.
[00:45:42] Speaker B: And the warrant is issued for your arrest.
[00:45:44] Speaker A: For your arrest.
[00:45:45] Speaker B: The police hold you.
[00:45:46] Speaker A: The police hold you. They tell you, listen, or the warrant officer might contact you. And they say, davey, listen, you're owing 10,000. You know what you're doing, buddy, what you're doing?
You could then get that money, pay it to the court and that matter is done.
[00:46:09] Speaker B: You warrant dead. Or they still have to hold you and carry it.
[00:46:12] Speaker A: They will hold you. They will carry you to the court.
[00:46:14] Speaker B: They'll still hold you even after you pay it.
[00:46:16] Speaker A: No, no, no. You will pay the money at the court and then you would be released.
[00:46:23] Speaker B: And that is it.
[00:46:24] Speaker A: And that's it.
[00:46:25] Speaker B: But if you don't have a 10 and you can only pay 5 if.
[00:46:27] Speaker A: You don't have the money, that any arrangement like that, you have to go before the magistrate again.
[00:46:32] Speaker B: So they will hold you.
[00:46:33] Speaker A: They will hold you. You would appear before the magistrate.
You had to explain that to the magistrate.
[00:46:40] Speaker B: So, so the, the, the holding, the holding you. But the police hold you on a maintenance warrant. They take it before a magistrate.
[00:46:48] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:46:48] Speaker B: And if you're on, you're telling you're in a 10 and I working away, I couldn't pay this.
[00:46:53] Speaker A: It's up to the magistrate. The mag could either release you, the magistrate could. Could make a variance. The magistrate could say, well, we will hold you. Listen, you play the fool.
[00:47:02] Speaker B: It's more than once.
[00:47:03] Speaker A: It's more than once. You come here, wherever, wherever, head to head to remand. Remand this individual until x at least.
[00:47:12] Speaker B: A 5,000 is paid.
[00:47:14] Speaker A: Oh, I'm saying, listen, you're three months simple imprisonment, but you're still ow the money.
[00:47:20] Speaker B: And you have to pay the, the, the.
[00:47:22] Speaker A: The time that you spend is for breach of the Ruling of the court.
[00:47:28] Speaker B: That is what it's for.
[00:47:29] Speaker A: Not for the money.
[00:47:30] Speaker B: Not money is a breach of the ruling. Okay, I'm happy that you clear that up. But here is the one of the damning things that you just said that if I real harsh to swallow boy. Those that person is now going before going back to the remand section or a convicted section.
[00:47:49] Speaker A: Once you have been convicted, you're going to be convicted. You're not going to be held on remand.
[00:47:57] Speaker B: So this, this maintenance person is convicted for breaching a court order.
[00:48:02] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:48:02] Speaker B: So you're no longer. You're not any remand segment.
[00:48:05] Speaker A: Remand is where your matter has not.
[00:48:07] Speaker B: Not yet been resolved undetermined. So you're going and get a blue. A blue suit.
[00:48:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:13] Speaker B: With a number on it. And you're going to sit down with them on a prisoner's there and relax yourself. Simple imprisonment means what you do.
[00:48:19] Speaker A: You do other work and them sort of thing you could request to but it's.
[00:48:23] Speaker B: Are you held in a cell with a dormitory style vibes?
[00:48:25] Speaker A: It depends. We do try as best as possible but given the conditions it's not always.
[00:48:33] Speaker B: Possible to put people in dorms.
[00:48:35] Speaker A: Yeah, in dormitories.
[00:48:36] Speaker B: So then you had to hit it in a cell and relax yourself and chill for your three months. And on your release date is that the morning of or the night? What time of the day is like these people go? No.
[00:48:46] Speaker A: Well, there's a process.
There's some paperwork and whatnot that needs to be done. But generally throughout the day once the person doesn't spend that day, once the.
[00:48:57] Speaker B: Day doesn't come to an end.
[00:48:58] Speaker A: Doesn't come to an end.
[00:48:59] Speaker B: So you can get. You can get at 11:30 in the night?
[00:49:01] Speaker A: No, it had to be for they try to do the charges in the.
[00:49:06] Speaker B: Morning and let you go the morning as best as.
[00:49:08] Speaker A: Good.
[00:49:10] Speaker B: Cool. We taking your questions now. 625-2257. Good morning.
All right, I have a WhatsApp message here again Davy.
[00:49:18] Speaker C: And good morning again to Mr. Gordon. Yeah, when you look at the. The coalition of interests and the UNC's manifesto it talks about it implementing a system where persons who are incarcerated an account can be created for them.
And whenever they roll out some of these programs that they want to roll out in terms of having prisoners. If you are a mechanic you can contribute to the repairing of vehicle the money goes into that account.
And that could assuage or offset some of the expenses that that prisoner may incur.
Especially when you are presumed innocent. Until Proven guilty. So hopefully that this government keeps it word and it implements some of those mechanisms in terms of reducing recidivism in our prison.
[00:50:09] Speaker B: One texter is asking where all these fines end up in general.
[00:50:14] Speaker A: Where the fine.
[00:50:14] Speaker B: What. What fines you're talking about?
I don't know. You have to clarify what you're asking. Question. If a woman leave a man, he mining the children. Do women pay maintenance in Trinidad and Tobago or is it only men?
[00:50:25] Speaker A: No, women pay too.
[00:50:26] Speaker B: Women have to pay, too.
[00:50:28] Speaker A: It's just that men generally don't take the mother of their children to court. But men have been.
[00:50:34] Speaker B: I've done it.
[00:50:35] Speaker A: And they are women who are paying.
[00:50:37] Speaker B: The court because the child is in the custody of the man.
[00:50:39] Speaker A: Correct. Okay.
[00:50:39] Speaker B: Hello. Good morning.
[00:50:47] Speaker D: People who get hard labor, man, get 10 years at hard labor. What's hard labor? All right, Is it no cable and no TV or what?
[00:50:55] Speaker B: No, no, no, no, no, no.
I can tell you what hard labor is, but let the professional tell you. He wants to know what is hard.
[00:51:02] Speaker A: What is deemed that you had to work. Right. You must be involved in some sort of endeavor. But when they come on hard labor, they have to be found fit to work to it. So we have to. They are placed before the prison medical officer. He will do a medical examination of the persons. We do something where we call. We sit board.
So the inmate is interviewed. You know where you used to work, you know where you live in, who is your mother, who is your father, what skills you have, what you know, to try and get an understanding of who they are and what they could do. And then they are placed in different areas to work and function.
[00:51:42] Speaker B: So the hard labor is not necessarily going outside and breaking stones.
[00:51:45] Speaker A: We don't have that.
[00:51:46] Speaker B: We have a quarry by no quarry by no quarry.
[00:51:49] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:51:49] Speaker B: Brick, stone.
[00:51:52] Speaker A: Every day.
[00:51:52] Speaker B: So hard labor is generally working. You had to be working.
[00:51:55] Speaker A: You had to be working. Correct.
[00:51:56] Speaker B: Simple imprisonment. You don't work.
[00:51:58] Speaker A: No.
[00:51:58] Speaker B: All right. Hello. Good morning.
Good morning.
[00:52:01] Speaker C: Good morning, Mr. Fields. Is Mr. Fields on your program? Right.
[00:52:06] Speaker B: No, no, no. It sounds like Feels Like Feels. For some reason, I can't get feels. And my show Feels is beyond base show. I have tried to get Rondell on this show.
Feels is our base man. He always on Bass program.
But Gerard Gordon is my brethren. He's here.
[00:52:21] Speaker C: Oh, that's the guy from the prison.
[00:52:23] Speaker B: From the prison, yeah. Not from the prisoner. President of the association.
[00:52:32] Speaker C: Let me just say this to you, Mr. Gordon.
[00:52:34] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:52:34] Speaker C: One of the problems in society is that we have never decided. Look, we are going to Do a review of our society from time to time and our laws and how we treat with them.
[00:52:43] Speaker A: True.
[00:52:43] Speaker C: As far as I personally am concerned, it makes no sense incarcerating a dad because he did not pay any money. If the dad had a legitimate job, they could have garnished his salary on a monthly basis in order to pay the money. Clearly he doesn't have a job. So what you tell him now is find that money. If some relative are willing to give it to him, he might go and find it. And when he find it, he end up himself in prison.
[00:53:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:11] Speaker C: We need to look the way in which we treat with things. I've often wondered how magistrate imposes a fine on someone whose career is a career criminal. Where will he get money from to pay that fine? When he goes to another attorney, the attorney charge him so much of money, how he gets in that money, he's a career criminal. So we need to relook the way in which we treat with things in the society. And if we look at it, we'll find an answer to it. But we cannot keep doing the same thing over the same way.
[00:53:45] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:53:46] Speaker C: Over and over.
[00:53:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:47] Speaker C: And one day we get a different result.
[00:53:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:50] Speaker C: Hope that will not happen.
[00:53:51] Speaker A: No, it will.
[00:53:52] Speaker C: This is definition of madness.
[00:53:53] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:53:53] Speaker C: So I just wanted to say that we need to look at the whole question there. Be that because I consider when you have a child into this world, it was a joint enterprise. The lady consciously consented to both of you doing what you wanted to do and the result was a child. It is both of your responsibility. How come it is that it's only.
[00:54:18] Speaker A: The dad and if he didn't have.
[00:54:20] Speaker C: Money, he had to go to jail. Well, who is that? Something is wrong. There's something about equity there, you know. But we need to reconsider the way in which we treat with that. Because I believe a lot of people who are in prison should not be because we do have history in this country of people went to prison for being a deadbeat dad and they end up dying in prison.
Either somebody killed them for some stupidness or something like that. I know about two instances like that. There was a guy who used to work at census law for the former president of the Senate. And the former president of the Senate was devastated when he was killed in prison because he would get be dead, you know. And these things we need to relook us to how we deal with these things.
[00:55:04] Speaker A: Okay, thank you.
[00:55:05] Speaker B: All right. Thank you very much for your call this morning. Take another one. Hello. Good morning.
[00:55:10] Speaker C: Good morning.
[00:55:12] Speaker B: Good Morning.
[00:55:12] Speaker A: Good morning.
[00:55:13] Speaker C: How are you going, sir?
[00:55:15] Speaker A: We all right, right.
[00:55:17] Speaker B: Yeah, we okay.
[00:55:19] Speaker C: Right. I I for what you all talk about hard labor and what I know is hard labor from the colonial days is two different hard labor.
[00:55:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:28] Speaker C: What the hard labor I know is that you see where that rivers jail is.
[00:55:34] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:55:34] Speaker C: They didn't put out the gesso. They put that there because right now it's good agricultural land.
They say mine cattle, they mine goat. They used to mine hog. They do plant everything from that is to go help to mine. PD army. They often home school. They used to give milk to the school thing like that. They just said I don't smoke no weed in person like now. And when you don't work, you don't eat. Otherwise you get some birds in your back.
They don't make joke when they say yeah but brethren.
[00:56:08] Speaker B: All right. Thanks and thanks. You talking about some what where you feel my medieval times or what?
It's our human right bodies out there that will clamp down so fast.
[00:56:21] Speaker A: But one of the things, you know, as we're talking about this whole thing about labor understanding that, you know, we don't have a stellar conversion rate from remandi to convicted individual.
What what we have been seeing is that the convicted population is has kind of flatlined. It dipped and then it kind of flatlined.
[00:56:41] Speaker B: So it's more remandees than convicts.
[00:56:44] Speaker A: About 3/4 of the population is remandees.
[00:56:47] Speaker B: And not convicts.
[00:56:48] Speaker A: And not convicts. Wow.
[00:56:49] Speaker B: And that I'm, I mean we have cases here with the I think it was Amy Young Amy who died something so that I think it's two decades. That person's still in in remand.
[00:57:01] Speaker A: No, I don't he come out. No, no, no. He I don't think he come out. I I, I want to say. Yeah, I think I'll have to check.
[00:57:08] Speaker B: That and I call him his case. But there are others.
[00:57:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:57:11] Speaker B: Who's sitting down 20 something years. Recently a man was freed for time served.
[00:57:18] Speaker A: He was the one who had murdered the prison officer.
[00:57:21] Speaker B: Yeah, he was freed for time served.
[00:57:24] Speaker A: I mean don't have much time. Again, no.
[00:57:26] Speaker B: And you might say but that is not justice. It is because considering the length of time he would have been sitting in a state of unknown.
[00:57:34] Speaker A: Well, I have a different view on that whole word of justice.
[00:57:38] Speaker B: Let me hear it quickly.
[00:57:39] Speaker A: It may be a bit controversial.
[00:57:41] Speaker B: Make it controversial.
[00:57:42] Speaker A: I don't believe that justice exists.
[00:57:46] Speaker B: Justice is an eye for an eye.
[00:57:49] Speaker A: Justice happens when whatever incident involving whoever the individual was never happens again.
[00:58:02] Speaker B: Repeat when an incident.
[00:58:04] Speaker A: When an incident, I tell you, you had to wrap your mind involving, involving the individual.
So people doing crime all the time, right.
As long as we have people doing crimes over and over, repeated offenders, and not even the, the particular individual, but others instead.
[00:58:25] Speaker B: Others doing it or justice is when that, that instant. Well, that's a perfect world. You know, you're looking at paradise and.
[00:58:32] Speaker A: This is what I'm saying.
[00:58:33] Speaker B: So justice, there's never no justice.
[00:58:35] Speaker A: There's never any justice.
[00:58:36] Speaker B: Well, when you look at it from that sense, if you kill my dad or my son or my child and you lock up for 15 years, my child is still dead. Fifteen years later, you still alive, you come out, you don't have much of a life per se, no glorified life, but you still have life. You're still able to. You get a chance, you walk outside, you could still see 15 years later, the country's growth. A street may have redeveloped, a new building built.
[00:58:59] Speaker A: So unless, unless we are able to affect lives.
[00:59:05] Speaker B: I hear you in a positive way.
[00:59:07] Speaker A: So that. That same person who coming out after they would have committed because we had one just came out just recently that's recently. 35.
[00:59:14] Speaker B: Yeah, 35 years.
[00:59:15] Speaker A: Right.
[00:59:15] Speaker B: Three decades. And some is.
[00:59:17] Speaker A: He is, has proven to be over time a very upstanding human being.
[00:59:25] Speaker B: While incarcerated.
[00:59:26] Speaker A: While incarcerated, studied. He is a, he is a.
A pastor, ordained minister.
[00:59:35] Speaker B: He wrote. All of this happened while in the remand section. No, no, the incarcerated section.
[00:59:40] Speaker A: While serving. He said he was condemned. You know, and what I'm saying is that that is one instance.
But what we have to do is replicate these instances across the length and breadth of those people who find themselves behind the walls of the nation's prisons. And failing to do that is an indictment, not only Trinidad and Tobago Prison Service, you know, but on our society.
Because as long as there continues to be this misunderstanding of what our role is and how we are able to function within society for and on behalf of society, then we going to continue along this path. That it, it wasn't me. It's them.
[01:00:23] Speaker B: It's them. You know, we started this conversation on prison transformation. Not transformation, relocation. Relocation of the prison. And end up on a broader spectrum of conversation this morning and one person is saying the many. The money for various offenses paid to the state is. Where, where does that money generally end up?
[01:00:44] Speaker A: Well, go back that, Go back to.
[01:00:46] Speaker B: The state that can be used for state resources. Pave a road.
[01:00:49] Speaker A: Probably go back to the. To help pay Consolidated fund.
[01:00:52] Speaker B: Consolidated fund probably help pay. You know, it goes to the state. The state uses that money for whatever somebody is saying. Good morning, Davey. Where the defaulter is arrested for maintenance arrears and the court is not sitting example nights or weekends. And he is.
And he's able to pay the arrears. The police officer can accept a payment at a station, issue an official receipt and release the defaulter. Are you aware of that?
[01:01:16] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:01:16] Speaker B: It could happen.
[01:01:16] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
[01:01:17] Speaker B: So you can pay the money at the police station. They give you a receipt.
[01:01:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:01:20] Speaker B: Whatever they do with the money after that you have a receipt to show I paid this and you're gone. Nicely. And we have another text sending a message here. Let's take a listen quickly.
[01:01:28] Speaker C: Good morning. So here we have grown men speaking about a crime. And the crime here, the subject is that you failed to pay maintenance.
And this is no fault of mine or no fault of anyone. And here we have our next caller who said, well, where they're going to get any money? They don't have a job. You see, sir, life is our choices and we have to be responsible. And what I'm getting at here is that at that each caller that calls is like, hey, we have to do.
[01:02:00] Speaker B: Something for these dads.
[01:02:02] Speaker C: But at the end of the day, the children suffering or the mom, there's this suffering. Life is about choices. I always say this.
And jail is about deterring people from doing back the same thing. These guys might like it the same way. But I go in jail and sit down and I'll get the money from somebody.
[01:02:20] Speaker B: That's a serious point, you know. Good morning to everyone. I wanted to ask the president if he knows when the results would be given for the written exam. Prison officer 1 and why was fee of $150 charged for writing these exams? Sending okay paperwork.
[01:02:37] Speaker A: The public Service Commission, even for us, our promotion exams, the fees went up. It used to be $50, it went $150. So that is something with the Public Service Commission.
And I don't know, I am hoping that those results come out within the next couple months or so because we certainly need to have a recruitment extremely soon.
[01:03:03] Speaker B: And if we could toss in there, if we could toss in there. Eradicate the unwanted ones as well.
[01:03:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Remove the unwanted.
[01:03:13] Speaker B: We have had a very spirited conversation this morning. Unfortunately, somebody says, davey, I find you having some really wonderful and educating interviews. But the time goes by so fast.
You go until nine for your dedication. Thank you so much. Interesting topics on your show. Even Tosca reach early to hear these interviews.
She did all right. Thank you very much for that. Somebody is now saying to you, hi, David. That system is so stupid to lock up a person for not paying maintenance. The person should be allowed to work and a system be placed to garnish some of the monies towards payment to the. To the court which could go towards the payment of the maintenance. This is a silent listener Sita for Marima.
Wow, thank you very much. Thank you very, very much. One person is now asking me, could you ask the prison officer if they're.
Oh, his thoughts on relocation. Where in Trinidad and Tobago would you like to see?
You know where you think?
[01:04:10] Speaker A: Well, they spent close to $100 million on that nice beautiful fence next door.
[01:04:18] Speaker B: You're still bringing.
We're doing, my man.
[01:04:21] Speaker A: But you're talking about centralized.
I mean why, why reinvent the wheel? I mean it is a well constructed perimeter fence, two fences.
There are security boots on the ground. There is a perimeter road already in place.
[01:04:38] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:04:39] Speaker A: I mean it's.
I could only just build the building and just put on the building and there we go.
[01:04:44] Speaker B: But I still find that too close to communities.
[01:04:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:04:46] Speaker B: Borne Aruka Maloney.
[01:04:48] Speaker A: Safe.
[01:04:49] Speaker B: Dabadee.
[01:04:50] Speaker A: Safe, safe, safe. And, and hopefully this interview, this discussion would have reached the right ears and they would understand, which I think they do that in communities like that.
Certainly there is great advantage in having all those things right there so that being able to patrol and monitor is easy. It's not in a remote area, given the right resources.
[01:05:19] Speaker B: Final question for you this morning before we wrap, let's talk a little bit about Tobago. What, what is happening on the sister Isle of Tobago in terms of persons being incarcerated and held?
[01:05:27] Speaker A: Yeah, the Tobago first, I guess. I don't know. People don't know. But that Tobago prison is really the all, all part of that Scarborough police station that the prison occupied. So it was never really built as a prison.
Certainly some improvements would have been done over the years, but it is currently not, at least from where we sit, it is not really giving the best in service to the people of Tobago.
We have been speaking about that for some time.
And similarly with the relocation of Port of Spain issue, I am hoping that the person who I said was listening is listening and we are able to move forward with the construction of a brand spanking new facility in the sister Isle of Tobago.
[01:06:23] Speaker B: I look forward to that as well. And I want to thank you very much, President Gordon, for passing through. You are never a stranger to us. You are. And you have friends inside of here. And do you feel like you're vexed. Take a bus right now, man. They come back and tell me right on the coach and I went south and come back.
Yeah, I got toad feelings.
[01:06:40] Speaker A: I will let you know how it was.
[01:06:41] Speaker B: I got toad feelings if I ever hear that. So, guys, 20 minutes. On the upswing, we say thank you very much to the president for passing through, taking some time. He would have overstayed his time, but he did, and he was very happy to do so, to share insight and to also take Your calls on WhatsApp messages.
[01:06:55] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability.
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