Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Support Tactical is here with me again. Dirk, good morning and welcome.
[00:00:13] Speaker A: Good morning, good morning, good morning to all your listeners this morning.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Dirk, before they used to target the B13, remember the B13 was a high risk vehicle to own. Back then when it was the B13, the B14, then it come to the Almera before that was a B12, the central that was taking them things and then it went down to the wet man. The wet man. You have a wet man, you're wet. My other bolt it down and chain it down with big chain. They're looking the TF hunting now when we look at the L is was it the L200, the L200 graveyard that was unearthed a few months back where they found these open tray vans being cannibalized in our area somewhere in Trinidad and parts were being sold and stuff like that. There was a time when a L300 panel van was stolen as well. We have Hilux Tussauds, all these different brands. What types of vehicle are most commonly right now targeted by thieves? And why do some vehicles appear to be stolen more frequently than others?
[00:01:22] Speaker A: Well, to understand that you have to understand what is happening with car ts and what is happening with security products.
So the latest thing now is that a lot of vehicles are now coming installed with some sort of security. In most cases it's the key fob that is programmed into the vehicle and that controls a built in immobilizer. And once the key fob is not present, then the car can't start.
Now for robberies that is as irrelevant because more than likely in a robbery they're going to take your key from you, your phone, all those things, and then they're going to take your car. So it'll really come down to if you could find the vehicle after the vehicle is taken.
Now the cars that were previously identified were the cars prior to 2010. And those vehicles generally did not have any kind of OEM type of system to protect the vehicle, to cause vehicle not to be prone to last knee. Now when I say prone to last, we're talking about cars that can be taken when the owner is unaware. You know, somebody comes in the middle of the night, they jump in the car, they do something and they drive out, you know, with the vehicle.
And we have found that over from 2010 come forward.
Car teams are evolving. They have been coming up with all sorts of different things to be able to take the vehicle without the owner's. Knowledge. So to answer your question, before, it would be vehicles that were the same vehicles they called prior to 2010. And as 2010 passed, we started to see less and less of those vehicles with some of those vehicles falling off of the map of being Larson prone. And then those vehicles switched over to robbery. But now I can tell you it is switching back nearly every vehicle that is being sold, whether it comes from Europe, Korea, Thailand, the United States, wherever it's manufactured, those vehicles are have exploits or have vulnerabilities that are being exploited with new technology.
And for those people who doubt, you can go online and you know, you could go on YouTube for example, and look at what's happening in the United States and Canada. They are losing 15002000 vehicles in one in one city in a month. And it was unprecedented. And these are vehicles that have built in immobilizers. And get this, these same vehicles are being stolen and the same types of vehicles being sold right here in Trinidad and Tobago. So if we are assuming that car thieves already don't have those that technology here in Trinidad, you'll be wrong.
[00:03:51] Speaker B: And that brings me to my next question. Where many people still think that the car teams involves hot wiring a vehicle, but they're using this relay attacks and the OBD programming tools. Can you explain the different methods?
Because I was, I was a bit, you know, taken aback when I looked at it. What is the relay attacks and what is this OBD programming tool?
[00:04:13] Speaker A: All right, so let me go into what an attack really is. Let's start with a basic attack, a brute force attack. A brute force attack is where the car thief himself is coming to cause the car to start without the key. Whatever it is they do is and they have to physically be there. And it is going to require some, most cases the destruction of some components of the vehicle. So when they enter the vehicle, they would break a glass to be able to unlock the door. They would jump in the driver's seat. They will actually break out the entire housing around your steering column to get at the, the shackle. Some cases they break the shackle out completely and then there's a little slot to the back you could turn and start the screwdriver. The days of hot wiring where they will take wires out. I can see the movies and spark is any car start. I mean those, those are all, all ways of doing things now with those cars up to 2000, that is what they did.
As cars had become more pre installed with these immobilizers and we had a key FOB and we pressed the buttons and stuff like that. Even though you had a low key to come in and turn. So I'm not reaching as yet today, push the start. But that kind of turn style thing with a coded key, they moved across what they call the relay attacks. Now the relay attacks consist of some equipment, in some cases it was a receiver and a tablet.
And what will happen is that there will be two people. One person will come to you in front of your door and I'm sure we've seen a lot of those videos and they will sort of move this thing around your door and around your house. And what they're trying to do is to pick up the signal from your key. Now your key is always putting out a signal. It's a radioactive signal that the vehicle picks up on and they find that signal. And in that signal is a binary code. And that code is what your car is going to recognize.
So once they're able to pick up on that signal and that code, they then reach, they then transmit that over the air to the other person who is at the car with the tablet. They receive that code, they enter it. Well, it's automatically entered, but they activate it and then the car responds to every single instruction as though the key was there. But get this, the newer systems of the relay attacks records that code and records the algorithm.
So then what happens is that every time that a tablet is there, they could just start the car and drive it as though they had a key. So that was what the relay attack consisted of. Of course, that was a two man operation. I mean, then you had cases where people came out to the Faraday bags, they would put their keys in the Faraday bag so they couldn't pick up any signal. So the relay attack became less and less effective as more people became aware to the types of attacks.
The most recent one that is actually used, and this is the one that frightens us all when it comes to law enforcement and stolen vehicle recovery, is one where they're using what they call an onboard diagnostic port. BI directional reader. So we all know that in our cars there's this little port at the bottom of the steering. In most cases it's a 16 port, a 16 plug port. And what this port is really there to do is to diagnose your vehicle, find problems with it.
You could change parameters in the vehicle. If it is, you have to reprogram the vehicle. And manufacturers have been putting out the devices to be able to do this, to reprogram. Most of these devices come out on the Android os. So it looks like a big tablet with a big Android, but there are key programs inside it to run diagnostics, mechanics use it. It's a common. A common product.
But car teams have found ways to jailbreak that Android OS and use that bi directional reader to reprogram the car to change certain things, like, for example, what key is recognized. So a Cartiff could now show up with a key, a blank key, come to your vehicle, plug it in, and then tell the vehicle, okay, accept the binary code from this particular key. Now that Cartiff is walking around no longer with a tablet, when he has your cars, he now has a key, a coded key. And because your car is now pushed to start, which we thought was safer, he no longer has to actually have the key itself cut to start the car. All he has to know is push the button and the car starts. So for those people driving around vehicles that are pushed to start thinking, well, it's a push and start, so it's safer and all kind of strange enough, the old method of having a key was, was, was safer because at least it had a key. That, that was another part of security.
And even if it is you, they still bypass the key. When law enforcement showed up to your car that might have been stolen, thinking that this might be a stolen vehicle, they could see that the whole thing was destroyed. So we know, okay, this definitely or more than likely is a stolen vehicle. But now with a push to start and no evidence that anything has happened, you know, you can basically lose your vehicle. And even if it is you came up next to your vehicle at the mall or something like that, and the vehicle was repainted or it had a different license plate, it could have been the same color. You know, they would have already changed your key and said, okay, your key is no longer active and you could be right next to a vehicle and even realize that is your vehicle, that is the where the technology has reached right now. And I hope people who are listening understand this is not something coming to Trinidad and Tobago. It is already here. You know, they have. There are certain vehicles right now that are being targeted. I'll name two. You see the Honda vessel and the Honda City.
Those two vehicles and the Grace and all those, those vehicles are being targeted, taken with the same attack. We've seen plenty of these vehicles disappearing with gps, with coded keys, with pusher start and stuff like that and just not turning up.
[00:09:50] Speaker B: You know, I had to have a different mindset to.
Because if I was a criminal, I'm thinking, I paint over the vehicle. Or I use the same color but the number plate different. I change features. I might put a sticker on the, on the, on the vessel.
You know, something that if you see it, you're recognizing it because your vehicle had that kind of sticker or something on it and the license plate change, but the serial number is the same.
And the insurance, how do you get insurance?
Because you run the risk of getting in an accident, getting in a roadblock, looking legitimate.
Have they come up with ways to navigate around these challenges? Duke?
[00:10:38] Speaker A: Yeah, a long time. I mean, think about it. When you get stopped by a police officer and you pull out your insurance and you hand to the police, the police isn't really checking on any system to see if the insurance is valid. They go by what is inside the documents. Same thing with licensing in some cases.
So really and truly you could sit down now, make your done make their own insurance in on a computer, print it out, put it in a little booklet and you have insurance inside of your vehicle. The real question is if you get in an accident and you have to present the insurance another question, things like the chassis number, they have been changing chassis numbers now for quite some time. And now that you have all sorts of laser etching devices and stuff like that, there's nothing for you now to blank out a chassis number and you make over a new one with a laser, laser device. So I mean, I'm not entirely sure what they do, you know, because I'm, I'm not a subject matter expert on that side.
[00:11:32] Speaker B: Understood.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: So there are, there are things that you could do to camouflage a vehicle
[00:11:37] Speaker B: like that still die belly boy. Because if a license officer pulls you in and really decides to do a thorough check on your vehicle of a suspicion, you can get yourself in some problems. But let's look at homo. Let's look at vehicle owners now and the practical measures that they can take to protect themselves against hot wiring, for example, which is an archaic way, but a way that police could have identified a stolen vehicle, relay attacks and the OBD theft attacks. And what role does the modern GPS monitoring and recovery technology play in reducing this risk? You know, you are in that business. This is your field. How could I protect my vehicle? What should I do?
[00:12:19] Speaker A: So understanding what a gps, a true GPS company is about, it's about is being in the middle of a consistent and everlasting cat and mouse game. That is what it really is. No GPS company could come out and say that a product that they bring out today is going to be the ultimate product for the next 20 years in terms of theft, if that person come out, they deserve an award. Because since cars were invented back in the 1800s, car themes were invented and it has been a cat and mobs game ever since.
So anybody purporting to do that, they're just fooling you. Now when you start looking at different, different methods, I would say treat all methods as though it's an evolving technology. So when you're looking at hot wiring to relay attacks or onboard diagnostic, as of this point in time, our biggest threat is onboard diagnostic. Tomorrow it might be something else. So whatever I tell you now today, keep in mind that this is only going to be working until they find a way around it.
Now hot wiring and hot wiring basically means you have to look at having some kind of hidden immobilizer.
Now the problem with that is that with the hot wiring it requires some kind of a technical know how with, with car teams. So if they go behind a dashboard and you and that person is more technically advanced than your, your kill switch installer, they're going to bypass it. So you have to make sure that in terms of the expertise, whatever immobilizer you put in is something that is going to be well hidden and you know, basically a bit advanced. So it'll be harder for an average technician to recognize.
And that way your car should stay in the same spot, but they will find a way around it given time.
Relay attacks. So really attacks is easy. If you buy the Faraday bag and you keep your, your key inside of one of those bags, it blocks signals. So your key basically is not going to emanate any signal outside.
[00:14:14] Speaker B: What kind of bag?
[00:14:15] Speaker A: It's called a Faraday bag.
[00:14:16] Speaker B: A Faraday.
[00:14:18] Speaker A: Correct.
And you could put inside this is an RFID blocker. You'll see them on Amazon and ebay. Stuff you can buy those things for your keys. And those have been quite effective. And that is why car teams have had to evolve from that type of relay attack. And also a relay attack is you always have two people here walking around a big piece of equipment. It's something that if it is, you get stuff you want people to know why you have that. So that is why they have been moving from that to the last one, which is the onboard diagnostic.
Now the onboard diagnostic, currently there isn't anything you can do to stop it. I saw recently a video circulating where somebody made a little, a little plastic case that they put over the onboard diagnostic port and they said that this could lock the port so you can't plug Anything that's, that's ridiculous, you'll be wasting your money.
But ultimately what you're looking for is to have some sort of extra immobilizer and tracking system inside of your vehicle. Now I say X ray mobilizer because there are new immobilizers that come out now that they wire into the vehicle and it requires some special combination like pressing the volume button on your vehicle to start the car and things like that. So even if they get in and they program the vehicle, that particular car may not necessarily be looking to remove wires. And you know, you're looking for quick in and out. So if they get there and they realize that they can't start the vehicle, then they will probably leave the vehicle behind. Now the tracking system, for all of those solutions I just mentioned, the tracking system should be the most common thing that you install among all of them. Because having a good GPS tracking system that is well hidden means if it is, it did get past any of those particular countermeasures that you would have put in. Whether it's the kill switch, the Faraday bag or even the, the immobilizer. The GPS is your last resort because wherever the car goes, you could go and get it or you could send somebody to go and get it. You know, so, and then what the GPS offers that those are things do not offer is that same security. If it is you were involved in a robbery. Because if they, if they took the car from you, all of those extra features that we just spoke about a while ago, those things are null and void because they're taking the car, the key and everything from you at that point in time. The only thing with a robbery which is different from lastly is that you know the car is stolen. And because you know the car is stolen in real time, you can make the call and have the police involved with larceny. However, chances are they're going to come when you're fast asleep or you might be watching a movie. So you come to discover that your car is stolen. And in that space of time that your car might have begun, it could already start being stripped for parts.
[00:16:55] Speaker B: So in looking at this thing holistically, one has to go back to the, the archaic way of attempting to protect one's vehicle. We're looking at the, the club and, and putting up a lock on your, on your, on your, on your, your shaft on the bearing and the lever, the gear lever and that kind of thing.
[00:17:15] Speaker A: That's correct. Those old school methods actually have great visit visibility turns, but again, they're only going to work for a period of time because as more and more people start to use it, teams are going to start with, move with more and more tools. So currently a car thief, they could walk around with this little thing in their pocket to reprogram the vehicle, the jailbreak, plug it in, start a car and they move up. You know, they could move lights, but as we started put all of these other things. Now they have to move with other equipment and, you know, have like saws and all these different things to be able to get past. So your job as an owner and you know, you have to be involved in this cat and mouse game if you want to keep your vehicle, your job as owners, to start investing in all of these different types of tools. Every day now, every day you could go online, you could find somebody car being stolen. And I always wish, and I said, I wish I was my client. If that car had to be stolen, I wish it was one of mine. I want to be able to have more opportunities to run down these guys and catch them. Because we have had a number of arrests in air support, tactical. My officers have arrested car thieves. Some of them have gone before the courts and we even had convictions. People have actually made, you know, spend time because of the fact that we caught them. Once they start to realize that they're not winning in this cat and mouse game, you'll start to see less of these incidents.
[00:18:33] Speaker B: And that's the pointer we have to reach a stage where they must not, they must no longer win. They feel, they feel confident in the devices that they have. And sometimes when you look on social media, they can. You watch the, the mannerism. You don't see them looking scared. You know them, let's just walk in your yard or walk up to the side of your car, do what I had to do. And then minutes they're gone. Good morning.
[00:18:54] Speaker A: My neighbor had the best device. He check out the engine every night.
[00:19:04] Speaker B: You unbolt the engine and you drop it down inside.
[00:19:08] Speaker A: No, listen. And I, I have actually seen this happen. We had a customer who had a custom show car with GPS on the inside of it. The car was immobile, but he used to leave the car parked up in front of his arm in front of his house because that's the only space he had. But it was one of those cars that you would see it on, on these car shows and stuff like that. A lot of music and stuff. And they came with a tow truck and it took the vehicle. We got it back. But it was surprising to see it Was a tow truck that they used.
[00:19:34] Speaker B: And one texter messaged me and said, Davy, a hydraulic system along with the club saying that when you park up your car, your car sitting on the ground, it drop right down under that. You mash up the bomb, boy. Dropping on the ground and sit down.
Oh, yeah, defend that.
[00:19:55] Speaker A: You're coming with your car. You're coming to meet your car in four blocks. I tell you, these guys, these guys will do whatever they need to do or they will start to strip whatever they need right there and go with it. And go with it. It is not a matter of, you know, what you could. You could do. You have to find ways to mitigate the circumstances. Now it come like at the end of the day, people will be think, well, you know, the other GPS company. So everything you will say is doom and gloom and all that kind of stuff. Just get sales. Okay, take it like that. But I do something still. Do something.
[00:20:26] Speaker B: Do something to protect.
[00:20:28] Speaker A: It's based on experience, Too.
[00:20:35] Speaker B: Oh, okay. Thank you for that. The caller said that they stripping your cars or they're taking your cars and shipping it to other Caribbean countries?
[00:20:45] Speaker A: I would believe so as of this point in time, though, as much as there's enough evidence suggesting that I personally haven't recovered a vehicle in another country as yet. So until I do that, I will be able to qualify that statement. I've seen a lot of times cars are stripped down and they're stripped down for parts, and the parts are sold locally. And I've even seen a case where cars were stripped down. We. We would have come across a particular yard and they were packing a container, but we don't know if the container was being packed to ship. Okay. And I was involved in that part of the investigation. So would you say.
[00:21:20] Speaker B: Would you say that the K2700 is still one of the most stolen vehicles at the moment?
You mentioned the first.
[00:21:26] Speaker A: Yes, that and the H1 hundreds. Oh, yes. Wow. And the thing about it is that those vehicles are so hard to hide a GPS tracking device inside of it. I was talking about this recently, and I lied. Those vehicles got more and more. I mean, they're simple, they're very simple designs, but they got sophisticated because they are now onboard diagnostic. So what the companies did to reduce weight by computerizing everything, there are less wires. So when you go behind a K2700 dashboard, you pull it apart, it's a big void. There's so much of empty space. So we have had to find unique ways now of hiding a GPS tracking device on one of those vehicles. So much so we have an entire 3D printing farm over here that we 3D print components that will look like the components of the vehicles and either GPS tracking device. I tell them that this is a cat and mouse game.
[00:22:18] Speaker B: Wow. Let's get this call quickly.
[00:22:20] Speaker A: Good morning, David. Again, some people do know for the posterior.
[00:22:28] Speaker B: All right, this Texas says some people redoing the upholstery and putting the GPS in there.
[00:22:33] Speaker A: You know, that's, that's one of the things that work as well. Yeah, a lot of things like that. People have been doing wireless devices, people installed in their upholstery.
We've seen people who have put GPS tracking devices on the inside fenders and they have fiberglass spaces on their fenders and stuff like that. You have to, you have to come really, really unique, you know. But the thing is, at the end of the day, whatever we do today, six, eight months later, they're going to find some way to come around it. And a GPS company. I realize we have to wrap up. I want to close with this. A true GPS company is not just selling a device that they buy today and selling that forever and ever, taking your money. A true GPS company is sitting down, doing as much as research and development, looking at trends and also changing around to get to corporate ideas for these trends. I say this is a very exciting time for companies. And from our side here, we have a team of guys who are programmers. And now that you have so much AI and all these kind of things coming out, the kind of programs we build now, the things that we are able to do now, the things that I would have required 10 people to do at night, we reducing that down now to one or two.
Ultimately, AI is going to look at everything. Imagine, Dave, you could be driving your car and the AI is looking at everything you do and saying this is navy. And what we are able to do here, if somebody else drives that car that AI is going to recognize and say, this doesn't look like Davey. Let's increase the risk. If that is happening at 2 o' clock in the morning, let's move that to red. If we realize it goes into the entire area that we know is a hotspot area that's black deploy.
[00:24:04] Speaker B: Now. We got to talk next week on that. No, no, no, no, no. Don't get it. Okay, we'll talk next week on that. Dirk, you see that one? Hey, Dirk Barnes, Air Support Tactical. We talking next week. That's my co host inside the car. Care pause raise on that one. And thank you very much, Dirk. We will talk again next week. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:24:23] Speaker A: For real. The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.
