PRISON REFORM

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:06] Speaker B: Again, Trinidad and Tobago. Welcome back to the morning rumble here in our second hour, Davey Murray Is my name taking you guys all the way up until 9 o' clock this morning? It's now 7:20. Are you on the roads yet? Are you getting the kids to school? What is your location? Send me a WhatsApp to 3061065 as we turn our attention to the former prison president of the prisons officers association, Mr. Rajkumar Ramrup. Good morning to you sir. [00:00:30] Speaker C: Good morning Devi and to your listeners. [00:00:32] Speaker B: Good morning, how are you? [00:00:33] Speaker C: Good morning. I'm good, nice. [00:00:34] Speaker B: Good to have you on the program with me this morning. A lot has been taking place in the prison system. Remind our listeners now this is a gentleman that served in the prison service for over. Is it over just about 25 years? Yes, about 25 years. The only two prisons you didn't touch was or worked in was the woman's prison and Tobago. [00:00:56] Speaker C: Yes. [00:00:56] Speaker B: You didn't go across? [00:00:57] Speaker C: No. Well as the president we often visited the prison because they would have had concerns because that was something even back then. The Tobago prison and we are in 2025 and the prison still hasn't been built. We just reconfigured the prison system there in Tobago. So that would have been one of the issues that we had back then. [00:01:21] Speaker B: A Tobago prison to be built. [00:01:23] Speaker C: Yes. [00:01:23] Speaker B: All right, now let's talk about when you served in office as the president. I want to get to that particular point. That year was 2009 to 2012. So for that three year period you served as the president of the Prison Officers Association. What were some of the challenges you faced then? [00:01:47] Speaker C: What I would observe, listening on the background, watching what's taking place. We had a number of critical issues. Safety of prison officers. It still remains on the back burner. It's still there. They had several areas. The remand prison, which is a critical area. You're talking about arms, firearms, ammunition, you're talking about prison conditions, court delays, prison security, the prison rules. Those were critical issues that we had raised back then. And prior to I being The President Since 2006 I've been at the association as the public relations officer and that was critical. A number of issues there that we started because we realized that issues that was taking place inside were not being addressed and you had to raise that concern and the public in the public domain to let them know what was really taking place. And, and it's very sad. In 2025 we still have issues that the prison officers lives are threat, they're under threat they are being targeted. And in terms of you hear their cries. And so critical legislation we need to put ensure that the prison officers feel that level of safety. And so that is where some of the concerns. One of the areas that we had mentioned was the closure of Carrera Convict prison and Port of Spain Prison. And we've been hearing it lately that the minister would have talked about it and the association even heard past Commissioner of Prisons talk about closure of Port of Spain Prison. But that was on the agenda since 2009 and in 2010 I mentioned that probably you might check in the newspapers, you might see it if you go online where we talk about closure of the Carrera Convict prison and the port because Port of Spain has outlived usefulness. The building is over 200 years old. And to try to do renovation in the building and to expand the building is challenging. One of the critical areas that the current government now will need to focus on is that to ensure that when you have a prison system there is adequate, the infrastructure is adequate to ensure that you have prison program programming because you have inmates coming into a system. You have that area of pre trial detention which we call the remand prison. And that is one of the sore points in the prison system. Those that are convicted, you do not have problems with the convicted ones. It's those who are unconvicted remandees are the ones who continue to pose that level of challenges to the prison service. And so it is critical that we actually address that area. [00:04:47] Speaker B: I have two young ladies, two young individuals listening to us right now. Zanaya and Reese, they are listening to this interview. And these are young people. Zeniya would have just graduated through sea. So these are young persons listening to this interview and just message me and say they're enjoying the interview so far. So with the information that you was telling us this after this morning, it simply speaks to a lot of problems emanating within the prison facility over a number, an extended number of years, which would have seen different governments interchange. Even under the People's Partnership, all these things happened. Nothing was addressed. [00:05:27] Speaker C: If we look at there have been outcries since 1982. There was a commission called the Abdullah Commission and then we had the Batiste Task force report of 2000 and lately we had there was a David Saran report in 2013 when we had a prison officer who was gunned down. And there was that outcry to ensure that safety and security of prison officers placed on the agenda. And there were several areas that that report would have dealt with in terms of prison conditions, court delays, prison security, the safety of prison officers, the prison rules. You have the remand prison. What we, what we found is that that remand prison. Now just to give your listeners an idea what the prison system is like. We have nine prison system and we have one Port of Spain, we have one in Carrera nine. We have the women's prison. We have the remand prison in Golden Grove. We have the convicted section in Golden Grove. We have YTRC, which is the youth juvenile facility. We have the maximum security prison, we have Tobago prison. [00:06:41] Speaker B: And what about the facility up by Santa Rosa? [00:06:43] Speaker C: Right, so we have the Eastern Correctional Rehabilitation center. And during the COVID period we establish one in the central area, the COVID facility that would have been for the COVID inmates where we would have placed them there for that quarantine period. And it is still operational. And that is I've been hearing the association talking about the feasibility of that operational because it's housing around 20 inmates. So there are a number of challenges that we hear. And I've been listening recently. I saw the prison officers talking about bulletproof vests, firearms, procuring firearms. They were talking about safe houses for their officers in the midst of all these things. And these are some of the areas that we have been seeking to have addressed since my tenure as the president. And now we are in 2025. So I know we are very optimistic that the government will seek to ensure that the voices that are being out there that it is being addressed. And so I was listening to the Minister of National security talking about the closure of Port of Spain prison. And I would love to see the Port of Spain prison closed and have a prison in the central area where we can have proper rehabilitation. Now before we reach there, the Eastern Correctional Rehabilitation center that was established needs to be fully operational. We have the maximum security prison that has to be fully operational too as well. That was built for 2,400. We need to do an assessment on that facility. And then we have what you call the Golden Grove facility that serves the convicted and remandees. The convicted section could be reconfigured to accommodate more inmates to ensure that that population is dealt with. [00:08:48] Speaker B: The overcrowding. [00:08:48] Speaker C: Yeah, that's certainly because that has been an outcry. Porter Spin Prison continues and in the heart of the city it needs to be removed. We've been seeing recently persons throwing bad over the. And that has been happening since. Since my tenure. I remember we had issues with officers cars being vandalized Officers used to park their vehicles on the roadway and when they returned from serving duty, their cars vandalized. We, we had a issue where a car park was given to us there on that Frederick street area there. A new street federal. [00:09:30] Speaker B: I remember. Yes, yes. [00:09:32] Speaker C: And, and when you look at it, what was happening, we used to have a old, old outdated camera. [00:09:39] Speaker B: They had the big long ones and. [00:09:41] Speaker C: That was non functional. [00:09:43] Speaker B: It was just, it's just there to pretend. [00:09:45] Speaker C: And then we had fool people. Yeah, I remember that we had cameras installed afterwards during the 2010, 15 period. What is happening? Because I would have advocated for CCTV in all these stations, things like baggage scanners, cell phone jammers and grabbers. We had it. I understand the jabber from listening to what the association have been saying, so you'll have to call them. The association have been saying that the jammers and the grabbers have been turned off. I have a correspondence here where they said it had been turned off. And I found that very strange because here you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to acquire equipment and equipment not functional, whatever. And whoever sees the turning off of the jammers as a means of probably getting information and not seeking to protect the lives of the prison officers, something has to be wrong with those police persons who have that kind of thinking. [00:10:46] Speaker B: Listener you, I'm in a state of bewilderment right now. And the thing about it is I often wonder if our authoritative or those in authority, rather if they are taking a careful interest into the men and women that protect us. Because you all are really the Bible barrier in keeping the miscreants, those that are harmful to society, behind bars. You know, you all are charged with responsibility. Police lock them up, they charge them, they go to court. The court say, all right, we remanded into custody or you're serving this sentence. And when they get behind those, those iron walls, that iron curtain, we depend on you all to keep them there, you know, because in the absence of you guys, them fellas come outside and it's havoc in society. So for some job that we put such a heavy burden on, the responsibility on you guys is so weighty. I often wonder if the authorities do care about the men and women that hold these miscreants of society at bay. [00:11:57] Speaker C: Devi and to your listeners, I have some recommendations that I would like to make coming down to the end of the Pokemon program. And certainly you will see if the recommendations are put in place, we will have a different system. [00:12:10] Speaker B: Well, one thing I want to say to you, right, the time has come in my Respected opinion and I have been advocating for this for quite some time. Now you mentioned central. Now if you fly over Trinidad and Tobago, if you fly over Trinidad especially and you go down to the central area over Mamarab areas over that side, you would find pieces of land, some of them a little mountainous, but you could find areas where they can do a clearing, have a one roadway going in and out. And that could be a secure location, multi leveled or multi storied facility where persons in there for maintenance motor vehicle larceny, break in and enter rape, murder. And they can be categorized and sectioned because you have the instances where somebody being charged with murder, put in a cell with somebody charged with rape, also with a man who was caught on granny's yard thiefing some mangoes, larceny, theft, and all of them bunch up. Now the man with even the mangoes, with the little motor vehicle breaking, hunting, he's not murderer, he's not rapist. I ain't saying he can't be coming, but look at the levels certainly what. [00:13:36] Speaker C: You'Re saying, Davy, but I, I will not go that way. In terms of the simple offenders, the simple offenders can be housed at, at a minimum security prison, right? And that is at Golden Grove. Golden Grove is a minimum security prison. Based on the offenses, the type offenses, they can be sent there. In terms of the serious offenders is where we have a facility for them. [00:14:06] Speaker B: But what I was recommending or thinking is that they move it away from the urban area. Because the thing about it is when you look at, at prisons around the world, especially in the US and other countries, I don't want to talk about Peru and these areas, but in, in the US and other first world countries, the prison facility where prisoners are being held and housed, whether maximum medium security level risk and all these things, they have, they have a, a compound with different areas of buildings. So you have medium security, you have high risk, you have. They're separated. Right. As you rightfully say, but, but they are able to monitor the surrounding areas, keeping it away from the population. They're able to see. Now if you are to block off Frederick street and the street, is it New street and around the Port of Spain Prison, you're gonna get a gridlock in Port of Spain because a man was seen throwing something over the prison wall. Yeah, people flying drones right by Golden Grove. People could come to the back room on the back of the building, come in the area. I passed and I looked. The area is not one that I could say, you know what, I feel good that there May lock up in there and they can't come here. Right across the street is a housing area. [00:15:16] Speaker C: And that is correct in terms of even the surveillance. If you have close housing to the prison, it means that you are unable to actually monitor those things because let's say these cell phone jammers, when you put on the jammers, people close by may have some issue. [00:15:37] Speaker B: They do. [00:15:37] Speaker C: But I want to take you back to 2006. I visited the US Colorado prison and the honorable Fitzgerald Hines, former Minister of National Security, he was present. And that facility is a well placed plan. Facility outside, officers, accommodations outside. Everyone has to pass through. No one is allowed to go inside with their stuff. Officers, dormitories, outside. When you go inside the prison, everyone is scanned from the Commissioner of Prison to the Minister of National Security. Everyone is scanned, entered into the prison. And when you look at the prison, you're seeing a lot of prison industries. They had large spans of land that was being utilized by the inmates. They also had those who were convicted, those who remand a different section. And, and you, you would have seen the prison. And as I said, he was there present when I was there. I was a prison officer, I was a pro at the time. And so that we have visited that. When you look at other prisons, even right here in the Caribbean, you look at the Bahamas prison, you look at Barbados, you look at Saint Lucia. The prison facility is such that it is a way and it can accommodate the type of programming that you are looking now. They may not be as wealthy some of the other countries like how Trinidad is, because I hear he was talking about finances early on and in terms of having that type of facility. But you must ensure that based on the United nations conventions, you must have the minimum standards, you must have facilities that provide that kind of humane, humane conditions for the inmates. Sometimes some people lock the key and throw them away. That is sometimes the problem that we have. Because if I am placed, as you said, with hardcore criminals, a simple offender, and then he becomes a criminal too as well, because he will find his system fail him. And so you'll find problems after problems keep emerging. And there was something I wanted to speak on. I remember telling a superintendent years ago that time I was a prison officer, one and I told him, the influx of foreign nationals coming into the prison is going to present a problem for the prison system and the government. By that time, my voice was, where? What? Mr. What are you talking about? And but what we had is that foreign nationals came in and they made links with our locals. So they spend Some time come inside here and you, you network. So when you leave, when the person leave, he already established a network inside. And you see that has grown to such an extent now that the problem that we are facing is because we have the transnational. Trinidad is poised in a place where transatlantic, you find a shipment, everything taking place, gun trafficking, human trafficking, drug trafficking in Trinidad. So when you find that taking place and very lucrative, you find that the persons will gravitate. If unemployment being an issue, poverty and poverty in people's situation, they will gravitate to a life of crime. And so that. How do we avoid that with open borders? We had open borders and I don't know for how long, how long and how many persons have been coming in here. And we see now automatic rifles daily where police are recovering some of these firearms. And then when the firearms, person held firearms, they come in. The penalty sometimes is not a deterrent. So that has to be a factor. Firearm penalties must weigh a heavy cost so that it turns up deterrence and ensure that that really is dealt with. [00:19:42] Speaker B: You know, one of the things I want to ask you, and of course I keeping you into the 8 o' clock hour as well, to chat with you a little bit further. Before we end the conversation, I want to take a call and I want persons to be respectful, ask your questions, allow the former president to answer. All right. To the best of his ability. Hello, Good morning. [00:20:05] Speaker D: Good morning. And a pleasant good morning to your guest who is the former president of the association. My view on this whole prison system and crime as a whole in this country and for the benefit of society. You did mention about these smaller crimes and then the less serious crimes and then serious criminals. And I want to suggest that there be some form of prison reform, particularly for the minor offenses. And that is to say that people can serve a period of time, be released, be set on a bond and go on with their life. So you will free up the prison system and then the entire system will become easier. In addition to that, of course, you will need legislation. I'm making a statement because I want your opinion on it. And I am saying that hard labor should be hard labor. That is to say, we must turn the prison for hardened criminals, others and so on to go into agriculture in the prison system and mine animals and so on, so that there could be some benefit to society. It will help to build the country so that they are not just there and you know, as we say, getting three meals a day and doing nothing for the country. So I just thought I should mention that and I want to get your opinion on it. I thank you. [00:21:21] Speaker C: Enjoy. Yeah, well, thanks for the call. What I had mentioned earlier on, in terms of recommendations, which the caller is asking for it early on, in terms of effective, and I use the word effective, rehabilitation, you need to have thorough assessment and rehabilitation program. So when an inmate comes into the system, you pick up whatever is the issue and you can actually deal with it. You have in terms of mandatory programming, we have inmates that come into the system and do not attend programs. You do not have to. And so you get what you call remission. If it's under 30 days, you got served sentence, you, you served it 30 days. From 30 days to one year, you get half sentence. So let's say you get 10 months, you actually serving five months and after one year beyond you get a third off. So if you get three years, you're actually getting two years to serve and you get a whole year off. And you do not have to attend no program. Now that was designed for what you call good industry, good conduct and industry. And so that has to be looked at. Every inmate that is given that sentence off, they should be involved in effective. [00:22:44] Speaker B: Programming, some kind of remedial work programming. [00:22:47] Speaker C: So in that way you attend a program and we see some kind of results. And we need to just focus on the issue of terms of a lot of our inmates are drug addicts. And so you want to ensure that the drug addicts are dealt with inside the prison. So they're complete needs assessment, risk assessment. You have the sex offenders program, A lot of them are sex offenders and we need to address that. So in terms of the rehabilitation of the inmates, those who are simple offenders, I agree with the caller that we need to have that and we need to reintroduce the community service offenders have alternative sentencing rather than those persons because like how we have cpep, we have people that could be utilized in the community and, and do work right. So that at the end of the, we are looking at, at areas we need to have, like how there was something we talk about electronic monitoring and that has been on the books now. And I noticed Amalgamated has been. I, I was surprised. I knew that there was a committee, there was a team set up and then only to be told Amalgamated is controlling the electronic monitoring system. So I was really shocked to hear that part of it. [00:24:02] Speaker B: Really? You shocked? I'm not. Good morning. [00:24:07] Speaker A: Good morning, gentlemen. You know, everyday people leave the prison system because they either set free or they, they go off to jail. I'm talking about remand they leave the remand system, they go off to jail or they're set free or they get bail or something. Right. But yet it's always full. And that is because we are producing too many criminals or at least too many people getting caught up in the system. Which means that's a problem in our society. But anytime you talk about it, they say, oh, he is a unc, he is an Indian, he is from Pinal. He has. We know him long time, Mr. Pinal. We know you, we know you have some hidden agenda. Everything is really disguised racism and one set of foolishness. Instead of listening to people who know not only me, right. Where the problems come from, which is basically lack of family life, lack of parenting people. I would not use the terms Dr. Jobe had used and came under extreme fire. Right. But people are being very irresponsible about the way they grow up their children and organize their families and their communities and their producing criminals. And what you're seeing here is the effect of that and they're not listening. They get angry when you talk to them. I want to comment on that. Thank you. [00:25:37] Speaker B: All right, thank you very much, Dorbasa. [00:25:40] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree that to extent what some of the things that he has, he's saying, you know, a lot of things in terms of the family life. That's one of the areas is community corrections. Community corrections involve the use of the community, the family playing an integral role. Now we have a number of folks programs inside the prison whereby we have like family, Father's Day, Mother's Day, we have angel tree programs. So they are programmed inside the prison. My thing is that we need to do more and it must be effective. And some of the recommendations that proposing should be adopted and we will see in terms of let's say persons coming, the person now making a contrast with remandi's and convicted. Now there are, there are two separate set of individuals. Those who commit a crime, you commit a crime, you get bail or you, you, you commit a crime and you are given a sentence and you, you serve as a convicted inmate. So whereas the convicted one knows when he is coming out and he has a time, the remand is, doesn't have a time. And that is where the challenge lie in the remand is what we call pre trial detention. And when you look at jurisdiction abroad, you'll realize most of those inmates are handled by the police. In Trinidad, the prison officers handle them. And so that places the challenge for. [00:27:09] Speaker B: The prison service because the police will handle it up to pre Trial and then when they go off to the correctional facility, that is of the war warden, of these, of the correctional facility and all of that you make. That's. That's true. That's a point. That's a good point. [00:27:23] Speaker C: I did some research in. In certain countries, the population is 70%. So 30% convicted and 70% remandees. You talking about UK, you talk about in Europe, in Africa, in the Americas. The population that Trinidad and Tobago is close to 70%. So we fit into that category where. [00:27:46] Speaker B: The remandees are outweighed when it comes to the convicted. All right. Hello, good morning. [00:27:52] Speaker E: Good morning, Davy. And good morning to your esteemed guests. [00:27:54] Speaker B: Good morning. [00:27:56] Speaker E: I would tell you something. I don't like living in a society where it would seem that we have stopped thinking that we are not an enlightened society. In other developed societies, what they actually do is to try their best to get out of prison. Those who they believe may have reached a form of rehabilitation, those who have been model prisoners and those who. It really makes sense keeping this guy inside of here. So the whole question of having an active parole system where a person who saved half of his sentence, he was a murder prisoner or so you could either tag him or whatever it is, let him go on the outside, you know, he's going to do a job, he has family who will support him and all get them out of prison. It would seem to me that we just like to keep people in prison. But keeping people in prison doesn't make any sense because somebody did a tabulation. They were saying that it costs so much money to keep a prisoner in prison for the year because look at how much money they spend on the prison system, how much prisoners they have. They did an extraction and say it cost so much money. We need to get people out of, of prisons. And I would like to see a system like that, a robust system like that in Trinidad. Listen to your comments. [00:29:16] Speaker C: Yes, I hear what caller is saying in terms of the prison, a parole system. Parole has been on the agenda from since 2006. That has been on the agenda. If you look at, if you go online, you will realize there have been a lot of articles talking about and we are in 20, 25, 19 years and we still haven't seen parole system. But before we go to the parole, we must make sure that our programs are effective. We see rehabilitation taking place. More effort must be placed on ensuring that the programs that we have. And there's been a recent trust by the prison programs unit and the management of the Prison service in terms of. For program integrity, what they have is a risk assessment. So now they are looking at the program that are currently in place and how it can better serve the inmates. So in terms of seeing that taking place, that is something that I welcome to see that that is taking place. Because we will have a system where, you know, we can actually measure the success that is taking place in the prison system. [00:30:26] Speaker B: All right. Indeed so. Indeed so. Hello. Good morning. [00:30:30] Speaker A: Yeah, pleasant morning. David, good morning to the prison service program. And Davy, it is so unfair that police officers just lock up somebody for not doing what they. They did nothing wrong. But you end up in prison and your charge cannot be found in the magistrate court. So I still remain a wanted person. [00:31:08] Speaker B: All right, thank you. You know of a situation like that, the charge can be found. [00:31:14] Speaker C: I've heard of instances where individuals said have been offended in terms of findings injustice that would have taken place based on the police response to them. And I was a former police officer. [00:31:29] Speaker B: Before I remember that, a special reserve police officer. [00:31:32] Speaker C: Right. And so you find out how the police operate. That's why there's always been a call for management of the police service. And that's why you have the confidence level that is low in the police service. But in terms of speaking for the police service, I would prefer if someone from the police service speak to that effect in terms of the treatment. That is method and we see it in videos people posted. Now with the invent of technology, everyone is posting when police officers are treating them in a particular manner. It doesn't mean that it doesn't warrant because sometimes citizens behave in such a ridiculous manner. The police have to take action in terms of what we are dealing with. And I want to just go back to the area where the person was talking about in terms of what do we have? You see. And I would like my thoughts to those who are listening in terms of. To revitalize the prison industry. This is something that we have been talking for a long, long time in terms of the resources effective managing the resources that we have involving productive labor. You have a large workforce inside the prison. 30, some 3,000 plus inmates every if you have them that area at the maximum security for those who travel on the. On the Churchill Roosevelt highway you'll see a large fence, a high fence wall that went up. [00:33:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I was about to ask you about that. [00:33:12] Speaker C: And that is what was designed to have agriculture, you have fishing, horticulture, a number of areas there where you can actually house prison industries inside there. So with that taking place, you could actually notice that you could. The government could get involved in it in terms of employment agency have that system whereby inmates can get involved in productive labor and can actually get involved in doing some type of skill, getting some type of skill so that they could utilize utilized when they leave the prison system. In, in the Bahamas there's what you call a work release program. During the day the inmates come outside. Some of the inmates now not every inmate will come out, but those who have a particular behavior, they will come outside and they work for certain companies and they return. Now the. The money that they own part goes to the institution, part goes to the inmate and pass goes in. In the case of where you have victims of crime, part of the money goes to those families. And so that is something that can be utilized. We can manage that. The government could actually get stakeholders to come on board and invest so that we can actually see rather than the state having to pay all those hefty sums. If you have business enterprise coming in and playing an active role, we can see even the cost of prison service being reduced and monies could be placed in other areas that the prison officers have been complaining of. [00:34:53] Speaker B: I want to ask you what your thoughts are on getting making prison officers work more attracted to the outside populace. What can be done? I heard about the Eastern Correctional Facility out there in Santa Rosa from one prison officer who has resigned. [00:35:13] Speaker C: Yes. [00:35:14] Speaker B: And he told me about the stench that prisoner officers and prisoners have to bear up under, especially under toilet facilities and all of that out there. And that's one of the things that make him leave. Speaking with the now president of the association, Judd Gordon said says that the prison officer population continues to diminish. Now is it that the morale of the prison officers are affected both by the infrastructure they have to endure or work under the conditions they're working under. And now again the highlighted threat to their lives outside the prison walls that. [00:35:57] Speaker C: Has a role to play to as well. But what we have is that the attrition rate taking place, officers retiring, some officers would leave and there is no replacement. [00:36:10] Speaker B: No replacement. [00:36:11] Speaker C: I don't know if Jarrod would have indicated in the program, but the last recruitment would have been some years ago. And recently we had about almost 10,000 applicants. And now they are in the process of examination. And so this process that takes very long and that is something that has to be looked at. The public service commission ways have too much work and they need a service commission for the prison. A prison service commission that can actually manage and handle because the amount of stuff the City situation that the prison has to deal with. Have to deal with. You find that that Public Service Commission overburdened. It will certainly. And there's a need for the Commissioner in terms of assistance. In terms of assistance having hearing it. And it's something that we propose back then that you have a board to actually assist them. [00:37:15] Speaker B: All right, we pop pause right there for the hour for this time, we're going to keep you here. We continue to take your phone calls. I know there's quite a lot more you want to share with us. We'll take it to the Freedom 6.5. Good morning again, Trinidad and Tobago. Welcome back. 10 minutes after the hour of 8 o' clock. We just have a box approximately. About 10 minutes thereabouts as we conclude our interview here with the former Prison association president Rajkumar Ramroop in the building with me this morning. Good morning again to you, sir. [00:37:55] Speaker C: Morning. [00:37:55] Speaker B: All right. And of course, welcome back to Freedom Studios. We had some important highlights that we wanted to get in on the program quickly before we wrap this interview. And I'm looking at some letters sent to the Permanent Secretary. This is to Ms. Natasha Barrow of the National Ministry of National security back in 2024. We're going as far back as July 25, 2024, where you all were asking. The letter was entitled Service firearms and bulletproof vests for officers. Now, this had to deal with the provision of firearms and bulletproof vests. Firearms allocations for officers off duty protection, that is that will be deemed adequate. Currently it was inadequate the installation of jammers 13 maximum security at building 30 maximum security prison Port of Spain. And these jammers still remain in. In non functional. There's another letter dated Safety and security of prison officers to the honorable Minister. This is back in September 23, 2024. And the Honorable Minister back then, he was the actual minister in 2024. That's Fitzgerald. [00:39:05] Speaker C: That correspondence coming from the Association. [00:39:07] Speaker B: This is coming from the association at present. [00:39:10] Speaker C: Okay. [00:39:10] Speaker B: All right. Now we're looking at some of these concerns that they're still sending out. All right. They're still sending out. And it's dated back to even when you was in office, when you traveled with the minister in the Ministry of National Security. Fitz Airlines. [00:39:28] Speaker C: Right. He was junior minister, Junior minister back then in 2006. [00:39:32] Speaker B: But what was most noteworthy, he was also in charge of the prisons. [00:39:38] Speaker C: Yeah, we had our encounters because I believe if we discuss a topic and you would have visited prisons abroad and see firsthand and what is required when you return, you will. You will you will seek to do whatever is necessary to ensure that that actually becomes a reality. And so it was an issue with him because even that document you, you, you call the association would have written to him. So sometimes you. You wrote to the minister. We have written to him on several occasions back then. I have several documents home where we have written to the ministers and the various ministers to ensure that the issues that we have as officers dealt with. And it's sad that knowing and not actually doing what is required is the problem. And that is why the prison officers continue to have those challenges inside the prison system, because we need to address it. But I want to be clear. There's two separate distinct population, the convicted and the remandees. The problem that lies lies with more or less with the remandees. And there has to be a closer look at the type of programming, the infrastructure to actually house those inmates. In 2013, there was a committee by the Derisoran event, if you recall, there was a committee set up and part of that was the remand prison. And there was supposed to be a separate remand prison built adjacent to the current remand. And you know what happened? It was washed down. They just did a renovation. And you have the same remand facility. And that is one of the cries of the association. They have that issue where they. They talk about the remand prison not being built. So after the 2015 period, we expected that we have seen some of the changes because Minister Hines would have come after Minister Dillon and we would have seen Minister Hines coming on stream knowing that the kind of experience that he had there. And one of the things that he had mentioned was the prison since 2006 parole system. And so I would make a call and appeal to the government to look at some of the recommendations that we had proposed and seek to ensure that some of those recommendations are addressed. And if they are addressed, you will certainly see some kind of reduction in the situation that we have at the prison. There are certain security factors that must be taken into consideration. There were jammers and ground grabbers. We had full body scanners installed during the 2015 period. Those things were purchased. And why is not functional. You have. When you talk about officers being targeted, there are administrative deficiencies that needs to be addressed. Take for instance, I remember years ago, we used to have regular searching in the prisons. So it wasn't like a big search on the media outside there, but was regular searching. Every week we used to have searching in the prison. If you continue to do that they are scanning the contraband undetected. If we still have contraband being undetected, who is responsible? I hear one person say that the prison officers, they are to blame. The prison officers are to blame. When you look at it, who is responsible for the management of it. So that that is something that has to be dealt with classification system. We are in a situation where we still have those simple mixing with serious hard cause. And so that needs to look at and in terms of a backlog cases, that is something that the Minister will look to try and mitigate to ensure that we see some faster trials. Minister Hines said it speedier trials and we are still there waiting on it. And I would really love to see some of those things come on stream. [00:44:02] Speaker B: Something that is very disturbing to me this morning is the letter that was sent back to the administration in September. Now there was one letter that was sent out on July 25. A response came September 26 and the letter talking about safety and security for officers. You know, the Minister said it was all your responsibility too and we all deal with each other. Boy, we don't have enough time to dissect this thing. Clearly some part of the responsibility for ensuring safety and security of our officers rest with the officers themselves. The way they go about doing their jobs and the way they conduct themselves generally and the way they relate to and treat with each other all partly determine the level of security, safety and security that each and all individuals as a group are to enjoy. What do you mean by that? [00:44:58] Speaker C: We'll have to ask him. David, what do you mean that, that. [00:45:02] Speaker B: You asking for safety for officers which is the responsibility of the State, State who employ you to protect me. And he said that's all your responsibility. [00:45:11] Speaker C: A number of things would have felt under the responsibility of the Minister back then and he would have been responsible for. But I understand sometimes he meeting with the association was non existent because you see them as just opening up loud, loud voices. So that would have been something that as the Minister you, you need to have that conversation with them to understand what is taking place with them. It mustn't be the administration alone, must be the association too. They are the ones on the ground and you need to be that kind of collaboration with them to ensure that you get what you want. [00:45:56] Speaker B: All right, I will have to leave it there. Our 20 minutes or 10 minutes or 12 minute time has expired as we have other commitments that we must follow through on. So I want to tell you thank you very much, former President Ramro for passing through this morning and sharing these insights, I would be consulting with you in future shows to talk with you on more issues because there's more to talk about.