Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: You're tuned into the all new Freedom 106.5 formal 6.5.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: It is now time to turn our attention to justice. That program every Friday where we speak law and the legal fraternity, of course, giving you the legal advice needed and quoting certain cases. Of course. Nothing that we can talk about where it relates to ongoing matters, but we can give you general advice. We can talk generally as to what the law states with certain things that you may encounter in your day to day. Remember, every case has its own merit. So even though the advice or the stories coming from Andisa and myself and maybe a guest who's expected to arrive shortly, it doesn't mean that what we say is going to be exact for you only when you speak with the lawyers, then we would know. Good morning, Andissa.
[00:00:52] Speaker C: Good morning.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: So how are you?
[00:00:54] Speaker C: I am fine. I mean, it's been a very eventful week.
[00:00:59] Speaker B: Really?
[00:00:59] Speaker C: I went, yeah, it has been.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: It has been an eventful one, yes. You got married?
[00:01:04] Speaker C: Well, I didn't say for me.
[00:01:05] Speaker A: Oh, sorry.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: Did you get engaged?
[00:01:08] Speaker C: I didn't say for me.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: Oh, it wasn't for you.
Somebody, you know, won the lottery.
[00:01:14] Speaker C: General, I mean, wait, how much is the lottery right now?
[00:01:19] Speaker B: I don't play that. But I go look and tell you just now. Oh, so eventful girl.
[00:01:24] Speaker C: I mean, in terms of current affairs, in Trinidad, we saw police officers being reprimanded. We saw things being lost.
[00:01:33] Speaker B: Who police get reprimanded?
[00:01:34] Speaker C: I can't remember what exactly it was for. And I know that in Chagona's. At the Chagona's police station, items went
[00:01:41] Speaker B: missing as a usual thing. Not at Shoguna, but in police in general.
[00:01:45] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I mean, it shouldn't be a usual thing. I don't think that we should normalize things like that.
[00:01:50] Speaker B: We shouldn't get accustomed to it.
[00:01:51] Speaker C: No, we shouldn't.
[00:01:51] Speaker B: We shouldn't treat it as trivial. No, but you know, we do. I read that story and I'm like, yet again, here we go, there we go. Somebody gonna walk free. Some story, some case gonna get thrown out. But how does evidence go missing from a police station Andesa?
[00:02:05] Speaker C: That's the question that I'd really like to know. But it's really and truly just to see how they will deal with the situation. I mean, I have seen. I don't necessarily think that it would just be a lost cause altogether because we have seen police officers being reprimanded. I remember when the persons were shot in Mova. I believe those police officers are currently charged for murder.
We do know that the PCA needs to have a bit more powers to reprimand or at least to have control over the police service. But I don't think that it is something that we should get accustomed to. Regardless of how much times it happened, it should always be a shock, and we should definitely be able to see what is the outcome of the investigation at the end of it to determine if they figure out who are the officers or even it could have been, you know, a cleaner or something that removed the items from the police station. And what would be the outcome from it?
[00:02:56] Speaker B: 4.6.
[00:02:58] Speaker C: 4.6. That's the. How much you lottery right now, huh?
[00:03:02] Speaker B: Still a little bit.
[00:03:03] Speaker C: No, no, no. That's more than how much I have right now.
[00:03:07] Speaker B: That's actually $4.6 million more than me.
[00:03:10] Speaker C: Exactly. That's 4.6 million more than how much I have right now.
[00:03:14] Speaker B: No, that's a lie. Maybe 4.5.
[00:03:19] Speaker C: I mean, how much? Even it was a dollar is a dollar more than how much I have. Right.
[00:03:22] Speaker B: So I. It's 4.6. So I say that lotto is 4.5 million more than you have right now.
Do the maths.
[00:03:31] Speaker A: Mm.
[00:03:32] Speaker B: Did I sell out your bank account?
Anyway, TNT this morning, equally encouraging and engaging conversation we have to have. And it has to do with the continuance of sexual offenses in Trinidad and Tobago and what connotates a sexual offense. Now, we do have an attorney coming in. We specialize in that area. Remember, I told you guys this morning that attorneys specialize in various aspects of law. And then there's some of them that are like a doctor, gp, the general practice, and they cover various laws. This is Andissa West. Andisa is verse in all.
I ain't bonked up a topic I could throw at Andesa and she ain't answer.
[00:04:06] Speaker C: Yeah, but I mean, we all plan to specialize in one area.
[00:04:11] Speaker B: Whatever you want to specialize in.
[00:04:12] Speaker C: Criminal law.
[00:04:13] Speaker B: Criminal. You always tell me that criminal and constitutional is two areas you want to specialize in, but that's what I'm saying.
[00:04:19] Speaker C: And at one point, I really like Caribbean integration law, and I feel as though I'm becoming even more passionate about it. Once again, I don't like that. I love it, actually. I love regional integration. And I think that we could achieve a lot together as a region.
[00:04:34] Speaker B: I agree. If they reduce the prices.
[00:04:36] Speaker C: Reduce the prices of what?
[00:04:38] Speaker B: For us to commute.
[00:04:39] Speaker C: Well, that's a whole big topic.
[00:04:41] Speaker B: But the reason. No, no, we can. When we look at that topic.
[00:04:44] Speaker A: Right.
[00:04:44] Speaker B: You know, you know, 55 of the ticket.
[00:04:46] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:04:46] Speaker B: To go Barbados, Grenada, St. Vincent, St. Lucia, Antigua and Barbuda, Saint Kitts. 55 of that ticket price is really taxes and fees and. Yeah, landing taxes for the aircraft and companies and stuff. When you look at. Because it's cheaper to fly from here to Miami than from here to Jamaica.
[00:05:01] Speaker C: Yeah, it is actually. And I think that I remember when I was in university, a lot of these students would go to Miami and then to Jamaica as opposed to traveling via Caribbean Airlines.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: Straight to Jamaica.
[00:05:14] Speaker C: Yeah, because it would be cheaper.
[00:05:15] Speaker B: Of course. I can tell you you have two flights to Jamaica. Jamaica is closer to us than Miami. Miami is further. Miami is 3 hours and 20 something, 330 minutes away.
And Jamaica is relatively closer. But it can take you six hours and something to get to Jamaica according to which flight you take because you're touching in two islands before. Or a direct can take you two hours and some minutes, but you would spend $5,000 with 55% thereabouts of that. So you realize it's about 40 something percent of the ticket you're paying. Right. But the other part of the ticket going towards taxes and you know, we might push back and say, why doesn't CARICOM talk about these things and reduce. We want to get Caribbean integration.
But remember, some of these countries rely.
[00:05:54] Speaker C: No, but at the same time, I wouldn't say that CARICOM do not talk about it. They do, but they do not want it been discussed. Armenia, that's the thing. But some of these countries rely on it. So you can't necessarily, you have to figure out a way to make this work. It isn't as though the system is a perfect system and it is a kind of new system as well. So this is why we have the talks and this is why we have the discussions. And there are a lot of academics who I know persons who did their PhD in these areas and they did, what do we call that, they did surveys and they were doing, you know, data collection in relation to that. So there are a lot of persons who are very passionate about curriculum and regional integration and who doing the work and trying to figure out the solutions to the issues that we face. Because at the end of the day, it isn't as though we have economies that could support these things altogether. We are new economies coming out of slavery and indentureship now, trying to build ourselves so. And while Trinidad and Tobago may have oil and gas to rely on countries like Barbados, they rely heavily on taxation and tourism for their revenue. So it is really and truly about figuring out a way that would be best suited for all, you know, member states.
[00:06:59] Speaker B: Maybe if we have oil and gas in different Caribbean nations, we share it among, you know, trait.
[00:07:03] Speaker A: I don't.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: Then we become a federation.
We don't want that. We don't want that. Everybody. Independent sovereignty.
So as we get into sexual offenses, what connotates a sexual offense in Trinidad and Tobago?
[00:07:18] Speaker C: So a sexual offense could be a wide variety of thing. It could fall into the category of rape, sexual assault, grievous sexual assault. And as we discussed last week, it could. It doesn't necessarily have a limit as to who it would relate to, meaning that it could even happen between a husband and a wife. Right. So the whole basis, or at least one of the big things as it relates to sexual offences is consent.
So most times it is really and truly figuring out the victim would obviously, the virtual complainment, that's the term that we'd have for it in the court, would obviously make a statement and they would indicate, you know, what occurred and outlining that there wasn't necessarily consent to whatever happened between them. And I can remember one time there was a matter where the persons, they were talking, they had a relationship, you'd say it wasn't officially in a relationship, but they were talking back and forth and the person went to check the person at their home and. And she essentially said that even though she was there and, you know, they were having a conversation, that didn't necessarily mean that they consented to it.
[00:08:34] Speaker B: Yeah, you keep what I wanted to get. I think one text I said last week, we were talking about this and persons didn't understand.
Is it that a person consents?
A person can hold on you. I will get it, don't worry. I'll go. A person consents to sexual activity and in the process of doing so, they say, no, stop.
[00:09:07] Speaker C: Yeah, so that. That's exactly it. If they say.
If they say that.
Yeah. So if they say that they no longer consent to whatever is occurring, that's the whole point of the offense.
Because at the end of the day, one of the big underpinnings as it relates to rape and sexual offenses is whether or not the person consented to the act.
And in Trinidad and Tobago, I know it would generally be a situation where whenever the person goes to the police station and they make a report, it would then be up to the police officers to conduct an investigation to determine whether or not this in fact occurred. And that would usually include, for instance, carrying the person to the health center or to the hospital to get a medical report. And that medical report would set out whether or not there is any evidence of any sexual assault or any sexual activity occurring. Then they could also take swabs to determine if the DNA recovered from that person matches the DNA of the person who is accused of conducting or at least committing the offence.
Obviously, it would be a situation where the person during the trial that is, would be able to give evidence and would be cross examined to determine the weight of the evidence that they are given before someone is convicted of it. But it is usually a long process where firstly, the person would go into a police station, make a report, then the police officers could conduct their investigations. Once they are satisfied that there is enough evidence to then charge the person, the person would be charged.
After the person is charged, the person would then be carried to the court where the first thing that would be considered is bail. The prosecutor will determine whether or not they are objecting to bail. And as we discussed previously, whether or not a person would be granted bail depends on a wide variety of factors. So that could include whether the person have previous convictions, if they committed an offence while on bail, etc.
And then the matter would continue where it could go to trial to determine whether or not the person is in fact innocent or guilty.
So we're back with Devi, and of course we have with us today Mr. Randall Raphael, attorney at law, who in my opinion is definitely one of the best attorneys as it relates to sexual offenses and just one of the best attorneys generally.
So. Hi, Randall.
[00:11:49] Speaker A: Hi, good morning.
Thanks for having me.
[00:11:52] Speaker B: Randall, you'll be reprimanded next time.
You'll be held in contempt of the studio, not equate studio for your tardiness next time. I understand this studio does not wait.
[00:12:04] Speaker A: But I appreciate it though, and of
[00:12:06] Speaker B: course, welcome to justice. I mean, this is a very tight segment. We want to at least get 28 minutes with Andisa and yourself dealing with sexual offenses, sexual related offenses, what constitutes a sexual offense, how easy it is to be found guilty of sexual harassment.
[00:12:23] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:12:23] Speaker B: And so forth. You know, I've never shared a story about the cruise ship, but going through that cruise ship, what is called it by indoctrination or whatever it is, inauguration stages to get on the ship. They talked to you before you board the Royal Caribbean Celebrity cruises or whatever, and they talk. One of the things, the key factors is sexual harassment, which is an offense committed by persons and can see them thrown off the ship or lost their job very quickly.
[00:12:45] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:12:45] Speaker B: And when you look at sexual Harassment.
It starts with looking at a young lady in such a manner that she feels you have undressed her with your eyes and a complaint is filed.
[00:12:58] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:12:58] Speaker B: That is how deep sexual harassment starts. You can ducky that sexual harassment.
[00:13:04] Speaker C: But the thing about it is we have normalized a lot of things in Trinidad and Tobago and in the Caribbean, which isn't normalized everywhere.
[00:13:12] Speaker B: You can't.
[00:13:13] Speaker C: So who might say that as something very simple, but it isn't something very simple elsewhere.
[00:13:17] Speaker B: So, Andissa, how did you do? When I left the studio, just started
[00:13:22] Speaker C: talking, I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was trial by fire.
[00:13:29] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, yeah.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: She's a natural.
[00:13:31] Speaker B: She's. She's a nuts, man. She's a natural. That's why she's here. So justice is the program where we talk about different topics. As it relates this morning, we want to center our attention on sexual offenses. And Andissa, the show is yours or no, I just yet a guide you and the goodly gentleman. Let's get right into it. People are asking questions. Can you define.
One texter was wanted to know about the sexual. What is continuous sexual harassment? That was since last week. And it just. Remind me to ask the question again. I think we started that conversation. So take it away, guys.
[00:13:59] Speaker C: As it relates to sexual offense, Sexual harassment. Randall, I don't believe in Trinidad and Tobago, we have a legislation that is geared towards that right now. Correct.
So we still have a long way to go as it relates to sexual harassment in Trinidad and Tobago. I believe in Barbados, they create. Created a legislation to deal with it very pointedly.
But as it stands, in order to.
In order to properly address, you know, if someone says that there has been sexual harassment, it would have to fit into the existing pieces of legislation that we have in Trinidad and Tobago.
[00:14:35] Speaker A: And it's more slowly limited with the workspace, rather than a criminal offense.
[00:14:40] Speaker C: Yeah,
[00:14:43] Speaker A: but. Yes, so we have harassment.
Yes,
[00:14:51] Speaker B: go ahead.
[00:14:51] Speaker A: Yes, so we have harassment. But in terms of sexual harassment legislation, we don't have that.
[00:14:58] Speaker C: Yeah, we don't have that in Trinidad and Tobago. So it definitely is an area where hopefully our legislature addresses in the future, because it is in fact a wide area of law and as I indicated previously, a lot of things that we normalize in Trinidad and Tobago, for some persons, it wouldn't be normal for them. And you know, certain things that happen within the workspace is definitely an area that should be, you know, should have some guidance on it. But as it relates to sexual offenses generally, how. How. What would usually be the process when someone is charged for a sexual offense.
[00:15:34] Speaker A: Okay. So it starts by the victim. Alleged victim would make a report to the police officers who will then investigate.
[00:15:44] Speaker C: Yeah. And what, what would that investigation usually include?
What is our capacity in Trinidad?
[00:15:51] Speaker A: Depending on the, on the type of sexual offense. Let's just for instance, say rape.
[00:15:55] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:15:55] Speaker A: The person will then be carried to be medically examined at the hospital.
[00:15:59] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:16:00] Speaker A: They will obtain a medical report on behalf of that person.
Samples may be taken. For instance, samples for DNA.
[00:16:10] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:11] Speaker A: Blood samples and submitted. Then the officers will go and arrest the individual, the suspect. Yeah.
Bring him in for questioning, may conduct an interview with him and put the allegations to him. But more often than not, once there is positive identification, so the victim is able, let's say the victim recognizes the suspect or is able to identify the suspect and does so the person will be charged.
[00:16:45] Speaker C: And how is identification usually conducted?
[00:16:48] Speaker A: So identification is conducted in two ways. Either there is identification, identification via an ID parade or what we call verification. That those are the usual two means by which the police would use to identify suspects.
[00:17:03] Speaker B: Right.
[00:17:03] Speaker C: And what's the difference between the two?
[00:17:05] Speaker A: So if the suspect is known to the victim, they will conduct what is called a verification. So that is, the police are verifying that if, if the victim identifies the suspect as it was John Thomas from Fable Village and the police go and arrest John Thomas from Fable Village, they will then bring in the suspect and bring the. The victim and ask is, tell us, is this the John Thomas that you spoke of?
[00:17:36] Speaker B: And there's a face to face confrontation.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: Yes, it is a face to face confrontation. Now, sometimes they may use the two way mirror.
However, it is usually a face to face confrontation.
If it is that the suspect is not known to the victim, but the victim says, yes, I have seen the face and I am able to identify the suspect if I should see him again, then they will conduct an identification parade. And that is where they will place eight or nine persons in a lineup of similar height, similar structure to test the ability of the victim to identify the suspect.
[00:18:16] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:16] Speaker C: So, and then usually for sexual offenses, it's a situation that is very tricky in that it's usually the statement of the victim.
[00:18:24] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:18:24] Speaker C: Against the statement of the.
[00:18:26] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:18:26] Speaker C: The accused accused. So how would a trial for a sexual offense usually begin? Go.
[00:18:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:32] Speaker A: All right. So it will start in the magistrates court. Well, now we have the master's court.
[00:18:36] Speaker C: Right.
[00:18:36] Speaker A: And I will use rape. There will be. They will conduct what is called a sufficiency hearing.
[00:18:42] Speaker C: Right.
[00:18:43] Speaker A: And that's to determine if there is sufficient evidence for the matter to go before a judge in the high court.
[00:18:47] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:48] Speaker A: Once that is conducted and it is determined to a statement from the victim saying John Thomas raped me, then there is sufficient evidence.
[00:19:00] Speaker C: Yeah. So that is usually sufficient evidence to move forward.
[00:19:02] Speaker A: To move forward.
[00:19:04] Speaker B: Ridiculous.
[00:19:04] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:19:05] Speaker B: So anybody, any male in any office, in anywhere.
[00:19:08] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:19:09] Speaker B: Can face a.
An arrest.
[00:19:12] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: Charge.
[00:19:13] Speaker A: And charge. Yes.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: And be charged and taken before the master's court.
[00:19:16] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:19:16] Speaker B: Because a woman says, yes, you raped me.
[00:19:20] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:19:20] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:19:21] Speaker B: So a question is being asked this morning. Good morning. In that scenario with the person having a conversation with someone in their home, how does one prove consent was not
[00:19:32] Speaker A: given where someone has.
[00:19:35] Speaker B: All right, so I'm. Let me. I'm thinking.
[00:19:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I wanted to prove how consent was not given or concept was given.
[00:19:42] Speaker B: Well, let's say it was not.
[00:19:44] Speaker A: I'm guessing as a female who is saying.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:46] Speaker A: That there was no consent.
[00:19:47] Speaker B: So we go on home by the person.
[00:19:48] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:19:49] Speaker B: And you know, Cynthia is by you. And you all end up in sexual relations. And Cynthia is now saying she didn't give your consent.
[00:19:56] Speaker A: Okay. So then Cynthia doesn't have to prove anything. Okay. Saint he has to come and say to the police he was, he was home by me and he had sex with me and I didn't give him consent.
[00:20:06] Speaker C: Right.
[00:20:08] Speaker A: And that's it.
[00:20:11] Speaker B: But what if it's a lie?
[00:20:12] Speaker A: Well, the court is there to determine how. Let's walk by trial.
[00:20:17] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:20:17] Speaker A: So Cynthia will come to court and says yes and give evidence and see, yes, I was, was bringing you home and you, you know, we were having dinner and then he tried to touch me and I told him, no, don't do that. And then he pushed himself against me and covered my mouth and described in detail.
And the good lawyer will then begin to cross examine and see. But Cynthia, I have messages from you from since two months ago saying, Bob, I really miss you. I really want us to engage in this. And as soon as I see you, we will engage in this.
And you are saying that at that point you just all of a sudden decided, no, you don't want this anymore. You are a teaser, Cynthia. You are a teaser.
[00:21:02] Speaker D: Right.
[00:21:02] Speaker B: And I didn't want it at that time.
[00:21:04] Speaker A: Yes. And it would then be for the jury to determine if it is that they believe Cynthia's story or version beyond a reasonable doubt.
[00:21:14] Speaker B: Yeah, folks, all you're describing are very similar. Scary scenario for us because that goes similar to.
To a husband.
[00:21:25] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:26] Speaker B: Being given consent to sexual relations with his wife.
[00:21:30] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:30] Speaker B: And then midway he make a mistake and call you wrong name.
[00:21:34] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:34] Speaker B: Or you call her something that, that triggers a memory in her mind and she said, stop, stop, stop.
[00:21:39] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:39] Speaker B: And he's in that moment to want to stop.
[00:21:42] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:43] Speaker B: So he continues, finishes off and she's like, okay, calls the police, makes a report. I told him to stop. You know, I mean, you're talking about the text message and when you're reached by me. But what if when Bob reached something trigger off Sinj didn't want it anymore.
[00:21:59] Speaker A: And that is a possibility, of course. And Cynthia. Cynthia will, because Cynthia will give that evidence.
[00:22:04] Speaker B: But what if it's a lie? Does Bob prove that? Gilea Lyon.
[00:22:08] Speaker A: Well, again, it's true cross examination.
And those type of offenses is really true cross examination.
One thing the jury want to know is why would Cynthia come here to lie on Bob?
Why would Cynthia put herself through all of this to go through making a report, coming to the Myers street court, then come into the high court and putting herself through this ordeal to lion Bob? Now, of course, no one can say why sometimes people do things, but I
[00:22:41] Speaker B: was about to tell you, your argument is surface level at best.
[00:22:45] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:22:45] Speaker B: You know, you just scraping. Why is this counter gray? Yeah. Who choose this stuff?
[00:22:50] Speaker A: But that's, but, but that's the reality of what it usually breaks down to in. In those type of cases. Why would this person come here to lie?
[00:22:58] Speaker B: Because I don't like you anymore. I'm vindictive against you. Maybe I got a promotion that I wanted.
[00:23:02] Speaker A: Right. So then we have to bring out that evidence. How?
Because.
[00:23:07] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:23:08] Speaker A: So, Cynthia, you and Bob on the same.
In the same company. Yes. The same level. There was a promotion about. About two months ago.
All right. And there may be records, there may be a letter, there may be emails. Yes. And when Bob got this promotion. Look, you told him here. But how you could get that promotion? I higher than you. I better than you. He was vexed with Bob. He didn't like Bob. Again, all of a sudden, you and Bob going down. Good. But no Bob. Bob affecting your money.
[00:23:40] Speaker B: So you had to defame Bob.
[00:23:42] Speaker A: So you had to deal with Bob. And. And when.
[00:23:44] Speaker B: Objection.
[00:23:46] Speaker A: When you make the report on Bob. No, when you make the report on Bob, Bob gets suspended.
[00:23:50] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:23:51] Speaker A: And when Bob gets suspended, who fill in the position right now? You.
[00:23:54] Speaker C: Okay, so usually that. And this is literally Randall in court. I'm telling you, he's one of the best defense attainees. So you would actually, I don't like.
You would actually have to bring that evidence out.
[00:24:08] Speaker B: Let me get a call. Good morning. Very quickly. With your call.
[00:24:11] Speaker A: Morning.
[00:24:11] Speaker E: Morning, baby.
[00:24:12] Speaker A: Morning.
[00:24:14] Speaker E: I could understand with charge and allegations in workplace, but let me ask a question. And what is he charged with for? If a wife bring up her husband for non consent, then you say that he having sex and. And for some reason she wanted to go and wash off before you start back. I knew you decided to do it again. And she tell you no. And what is the reason that she want to go reporting? Is she looking for financial. What is the chart for this? Is it a financial thing she's looking for?
[00:24:41] Speaker B: All right, thanks. I did mention it. And a caller called in.
[00:24:44] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:24:44] Speaker B: Randomly.
[00:24:45] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:24:45] Speaker B: So. So let's talk about that. That white elephant in the room.
[00:24:49] Speaker A: I think. I think the law used to be a husband could not rape his wife.
[00:24:53] Speaker B: Well, that is how he do.
[00:24:54] Speaker A: Yes, that is.
[00:24:55] Speaker B: And rightfully so. Because it's possible.
[00:24:56] Speaker A: It is, it is. But yes, in that case, the charge will be rape.
The charge will be raped.
[00:25:02] Speaker C: As simple as that.
[00:25:03] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:04] Speaker B: So when we investigate you had. How you going to go down this road? Because I'll tell you, I'll tell you the scenario privately, right?
[00:25:12] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:12] Speaker B: And let's say as a husband, I come and say Randall boy, this woman tell me rape. I hire you as my lawyer.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:19] Speaker B: What happened, Davy? I tell you. Well, boy, so and so was going down. You know, I make a mistake pal, and I just say something. Now boy, I ain't call no name, but I say something that trigger her memory, boy, and I'll get real vex, you know.
And she's thinking up with me. But we accustomed playing rough too. And you know, I continue.
[00:25:35] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:36] Speaker B: Now she's saying it's reap.
[00:25:37] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:38] Speaker B: How I Dan, how I gonna get out of there? This is me talking to you. Scared?
[00:25:41] Speaker D: No.
[00:25:42] Speaker A: So your accustomed plane is rough.
[00:25:44] Speaker B: But we did one or two times, you know, she said no, but I still push and I get through. And it's a cool scene, but all of a sudden it's not a cool scene today. Yes, we start one boy.
[00:25:52] Speaker A: Well, no is no.
But I remember having a teacher, a law teacher that said before you engage in any sort of activity, you need to walk around with a little notebook and say, ma', am, please sign this right here for me. Giving your consent, but nevertheless, yes. If she says stop, then you need to stop. However, in the scenario, in that scenario, the question is whether or not a jury will believe that she was really conveying to you genuinely stopped. Because if it is that you're accustomed to that. I mean, if it's occasional. Yes. Okay. Not regular.
[00:26:35] Speaker B: You.
[00:26:35] Speaker A: You will not know on which occasion that she mean it serious, that seriously. However, again, I would say to you, don't take the chance. And she says, stop, stop. Yeah, don't take the chance.
[00:26:47] Speaker C: Because at the end of the day, these sexual offenses depends on consent is whether or not there was consent.
[00:26:53] Speaker B: That's a lie.
That depends on what the woman says say.
Because what you all are telling me and telling the wider populace, this is so scary, is that if a woman starts engaging you at any point, she could just turn her mind, yes, don't like you no more and say rape and you dead in the water.
[00:27:13] Speaker C: Not just a woman, also a man. It goes both ways.
[00:27:15] Speaker B: Forget the man, because we go get to that after.
Yeah, proper.
She just say rape. And all they telling me police come in. I had to watch myself because you and I are men in this room.
[00:27:28] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:27:28] Speaker B: And if, if somebody says something, police could just walk in here without even knowing anything. No evidence. The woman say all reaper. We took her to the thing. There was penetration or interference. You is the man. She say identify him and handcuff.
[00:27:41] Speaker A: And that's it. And that's it.
[00:27:44] Speaker C: No, no, no, no, no, no.
[00:27:46] Speaker A: Go to court and let the court determine.
The trial process determines what if. Who. Who's lying from who's not lying.
[00:27:53] Speaker B: What if you get. They say, well, you lying and also she is correct and you get convicted, boy.
[00:27:59] Speaker A: Oh, yes, and rape is a. At least 20 years. You'll get.
[00:28:02] Speaker B: So 20 years of a man's innocent life could be gone.
[00:28:06] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:28:07] Speaker B: Because a woman levied something against. That is untrue.
[00:28:10] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:28:11] Speaker B: In Trinidad and Tobago.
[00:28:12] Speaker A: Yes. No, I have done matters where a woman will make that accusation and of course they go carry off a medical examination.
And DNA is something that has been progressing in Trinidad so that a DNA report or DNA analysis doesn't sometimes return until many years after.
And by that time, the trial may be at the High Court. The matter might be at the High Court.
And just before we start the trial, we get back to DNA analysis and DNA analysis, they would analyze sperm. If sperm is found, they would be able to identify the person from whom that sperm came and when it isn't a match. I could tell you the jury don't take kindly to that.
[00:29:06] Speaker B: Any jury. By the jury, the jury. What does it do with the victim? What has been done in the past?
[00:29:10] Speaker A: Well, they'll find. They'll find the person not guilty. Right.
[00:29:12] Speaker B: I won.
[00:29:13] Speaker A: But you, you are. You are talking about now in terms of whether or not the person should then Face some sort of reprimand.
[00:29:19] Speaker B: That's correct.
[00:29:19] Speaker A: For making a false report. However, the. The issue is just because that person's perm wasn't found, because I had. I had a case where the delay after the report came back, the victim then came forward and give another statement and say, oh, I forgot I had sex with my boyfriend about some hours before the rape happened.
[00:29:44] Speaker B: But if you really had sex with a person and you're firm there.
So we.
[00:29:49] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:29:49] Speaker B: So if.
But it was not rape.
[00:29:51] Speaker A: She's consent.
[00:29:53] Speaker B: It was consented. But after we done, we sit down in the living room talking. I'm gonna give you the scenario because I know of a case and it's wrong talking. And all of a sudden she get vexed.
You know what? You raped me. And she's going on a rampage.
[00:30:07] Speaker A: Why. But you see, again, a woman wouldn't just do that. It has to have. They would have some reason. As you. As you said earlier, you call Kim name and who the hell is Kim? Right.
And it gets her angry.
[00:30:21] Speaker B: So because you get angry, that gives you the right to go in the police station?
[00:30:24] Speaker A: Of course not.
[00:30:25] Speaker B: And permit.
[00:30:25] Speaker A: Of course not.
[00:30:26] Speaker B: You should face some kind of punitive measures if you are found to be the culprit of putting. Because it cannot be. Well, okay. The founding man, not guilty. And she walks out the court. Your life have been. Andissa and I shared a case last week. I think it was with the police officer.
Divorce, lossy children, got suspended. I mean, getting some financial rewards from it with the police service, whatever is fine.
[00:30:50] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:30:50] Speaker B: What about your wife and children? Yeah. What about the people who use a rap? A man.
[00:30:54] Speaker C: Yes, but I mean, even though we go into this, I feel as though these situations where someone is wrongly accused is possibly the exception as opposed to the norm. And we don't necessarily want a situation where persons who have in fact been raped or sexually abused don't feel comfortable enough coming forward and saying that this occurred to them. Because at the end of the day, it really and truly is that person's statements against the other. And I feel as though it is a good to our society where we treat these reports seriously, as seriously as possible. And then we have a criminal justice system, we have the trial system to test and to, you know, disprove this case or whatever that may be, to determine whether or not that person is lying. So I don't think that this is an altogether bad that we have a system that allows for persons, at least victims, to come forward, make reports, and then we have defense attorneys who would be able to test the evidence to determine whether or not this person is lying or not. That. That's what I think.
[00:31:48] Speaker B: Good morning.
[00:31:49] Speaker D: Good morning, Devi. And to your guest, let's put it in a scenario that two persons are in a bar, you sit down, you're having some beers and etc.
And a proposal is put to the other person that let's go and do so and so.
And the person agrees, you go to a hotel.
You didn't force her, she went with you to the hotel. And when you finish now she tell you, well, Look, I want $10,000.
And if you don't give her that $10,000 now, she go to cry out for weeks.
But it was greed before, you know, without a price.
How can you prove now that she agreed that we went there and she consented and now she wants to win $10,000, she will say, no, no, I never ask you for no money. He wants me. All right, how can you prove.
[00:32:48] Speaker B: All right, thank you for the question. Well, they robbed me some time today. I know they want to bust out here, 8 o'.
[00:32:53] Speaker A: Clock.
[00:32:53] Speaker B: These topics are very serious.
You are caught later, you robbing me, you robbing me. I just normally kidnap your tail until the next hour, you know, but you had to go. So answer that question quickly.
[00:33:04] Speaker A: Okay, well, first you begin. If the young lady is having beverages, I would always advise to be very careful because that will take away consent. Yeah, that could negate consent. Being under the influence of alcohol could negate. Yes, could negate consent. Again. So you have your paper and your pen and your maker. Make sure and have a sign, right, that I am not intoxicated. I only had one drink.
But apart from that, from what he's saying, if you go to a hotel, be it double palm or wherever, and, and big up double pal.
And she decides to ask you for money thereafter, then that's, that's exactly what you would have to say whether you, whether you have evidence. Because the same way she doesn't have evidence of you raping her, meaning any tangible evidence.
[00:33:53] Speaker B: Right.
[00:33:53] Speaker A: All she has is her, her word.
What you have is your word as well, saying, but then she actually tried
[00:33:59] Speaker B: to extort money from me.
[00:34:00] Speaker A: Yes. So that is what Ms. West is saying. And there is the, the justice system to test that, to test the evidence. And on, on the, on the, on the, the accused side, he has the benefit of the. The state must prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.
[00:34:21] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:34:21] Speaker B: So you went to the Palms, the Double palm.
[00:34:23] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:34:23] Speaker B: You're to the hotel, you engage in sexual relations you admit to that? Both parties admit.
[00:34:28] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:34:28] Speaker B: That sex went down.
[00:34:29] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:34:30] Speaker B: So you did. They did a DNA a swap analysis.
[00:34:32] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:34:32] Speaker B: Your sperm was found.
[00:34:33] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:34:34] Speaker B: Your DNA was found with her. And she's now claiming that you forced her to this place.
[00:34:41] Speaker A: Well, and, and that's the thing. Double Pam have some cameras. The, the, the. The establishment may have some cameras showing that she left willingly and came upstairs. I came upstairs and, and, and she
[00:34:51] Speaker B: wasn't clobbered and yes. Like a caveman and over your shoulder.
[00:34:55] Speaker A: Right. Because it's difficult. And I shouldn't say it's difficult because it is. It is quite possible and normal. However, leaving an establishment willingly to go to a place such as Double Palm and then saying he raped me.
A jury would look at that and scrutinize it properly.
[00:35:14] Speaker B: But if after they found that that is the. There's not sufficient evidence to. To negate that the fact that you were raped.
[00:35:20] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:35:21] Speaker B: So this person is not guilty.
[00:35:22] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:35:23] Speaker B: What happens to the alleged.
The person that made the. The report? Are they allowed to know? Okay, we lost the case and just walk scotch free after they would have humiliated this gentleman. This man probably was married. He would have lost.
[00:35:35] Speaker A: Well, well, thank God. Thank God. He will be outside and.
[00:35:38] Speaker B: Will he be outside and not in cars? But she just goes.
[00:35:42] Speaker A: But she just goes. Yes.
[00:35:43] Speaker B: Wow. You're robbing me a time boy.
[00:35:45] Speaker C: Good morning.
[00:35:47] Speaker E: Quickly, quickly.
[00:35:48] Speaker B: Time running boy. Quick, quick.
[00:35:49] Speaker E: Husband and wife.
Husband and wife have this dispute with non consent because the wife asked me to go and watch the bed. She that we had sex or. And I didn't do it. She want to come and say that she bringing me up for sex.
[00:36:03] Speaker D: What?
[00:36:03] Speaker E: What? What she getting a compensation?
[00:36:06] Speaker A: No, no, she would not be financially compensated. What she will get is what is hell hat no fury like this corner.
But no, I mean there wouldn't be any compensation but. And you see as Ms. West said, there needs to be a balance in terms of you. You would want victims to be able to come forward and not feel any particular way about coming forward forward because it is a traumatic experience for, for a woman.
[00:36:37] Speaker C: And then at the end of the day our jury is selected from our peers. So the jury isn't selected from persons who don't understand and who don't know these things. It's generally persons or everyday day to day person. And that is also I believe a safeguard in our criminal justice system. So the same persons who call in they could be the same persons on the jury. Understanding that this is what occurs and it's up for that Person to convince those persons that you believe that rape occurred.
[00:37:01] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:37:01] Speaker B: Is there a statute of limitation for rape? No, there's no statute of limitation. All right, quickly, quickly. 30 seconds. Ask your question.
[00:37:09] Speaker A: Hello.
[00:37:10] Speaker D: Morning. So if. So if the woman raped the mano.
[00:37:15] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:37:17] Speaker C: Yeah. Anybody can be raped. It isn't just about. So I.
[00:37:20] Speaker D: Why.
[00:37:21] Speaker C: This is why I corrected you earlier. It isn't just that a woman could be raped. That's usually more what we see. And I feel as though it's probably because some men don't feel comfortable enough going forward and making a report and saying that they were raped for whatever reason they might be seen as, you know.
[00:37:35] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:37:35] Speaker C: Less than by their peers, etc. So that is probably why we don't see higher incidences of rape as it relates to men. But a man could be raped. He could have been drugged, he could have been under the influence of alcohol. It can occur.
[00:37:48] Speaker B: What about wasteful employment of the police time?
[00:37:50] Speaker A: Yes, that can be a charge as
[00:37:51] Speaker B: well to the woman or to devoted anybody that, that really. That's brings up that case.
[00:37:56] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:37:56] Speaker B: What about suing the. The false accuser that in.
[00:38:00] Speaker A: Well, okay, so for malicious prosecution, what usually happens is that the person who initiates the. The prosecution and the person who had the malice needs to be the same person. And because the police initiated the prosecution and the. The person with the malice is. Is the female, I don't think that there. That is available.
However, I was doing some research on that because I believe that the law may be different, but on the next occasion I'll be able to confirm that.
[00:38:29] Speaker B: So you are confirming that there will be an occasion because you properly, well, robbed me of my time this morning. You're robbing listeners. People are like, Davey, they stay. No, they can't. They have to go. But the thing is, we thank you guys.
[00:38:40] Speaker A: I mean, it was a great show. I. I really enjoyed.
[00:38:42] Speaker B: Listen, take one more now.
30 seconds. You're tight.
[00:38:47] Speaker D: Morning, David.
[00:38:48] Speaker B: Morning.
[00:38:49] Speaker D: Yes. So in all now you trying to build a life and our relationship with people, a woman and stuff.
And then these ladies and I'm now looking to get their own benefit.
[00:39:02] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
[00:39:03] Speaker D: So what about that now? So it's better you go keep your money and keep yourself and go to a brothel or something and giddy and go back.
[00:39:13] Speaker B: Thank you very much. Jesus Christ.
It is scary, guys. It is scary, but I feel like
[00:39:18] Speaker C: everybody just needs to be educated, you know, make wise decisions. But at the same time, I don't want a situation where victims don't feel comfortable enough coming forward and saying that this. Okay, because if I said that I didn't consent to this, I did not consent.
There's no way around it.
[00:39:34] Speaker B: And I want to. I want to encourage all victims. Remember, if you are a victim of rape, make that report, support, get your evidence, go forward, bring those perpetrators to justice. And as we say, justice and DISA West. Thank you so much, Ramon. Thank you so much for passing through part two Next week, Friday.
Please be tardy this time, sir, or you will be held in contempt of the studio.
[00:39:56] Speaker A: Good one. You're tuned into the all new freedom. 106.5, 106.5.
