Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5. And joining me in studio is the former finance minister Karen Nunez Sichira. Good morning.
[00:00:13] Speaker B: Good morning to you. He's telling me to.
[00:00:16] Speaker A: Okay, right. Just wanted to get you in the mic.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: There you are.
[00:00:18] Speaker A: So I'm being joined by two beautiful ladies here in studio this morning and we're talking the economics of the country, the state of the economy.
Now if Ms. Haddad, we just wrap with you very quickly on this, on this. Fine. On this question here, what is the business sector saying now that the UNC is in. Is in. Is in governance. Farley has now landslide took away the entire thing from the PNM. 21 years they were running it and now it's Farley Augustine. How is the business community faring now? How are they feeling? Are they optimistic about it? Is there a pessimism in the island? What is happening on the business sector?
[00:00:51] Speaker C: Well, based on the history of the last three years, I don't know that the business community was doing great. So I think the business community may be at a place where they are quite concerned as to what is the direction because we had had a team that led a number of negotiations even with Mr. Rowley and his team at that level. And hence we were able to get a number of things, you know, all of the infrastructural things that were put on this island over the last couple of years was from a very big fight. And literally, I mean it was a meeting of fight, but we did get it and we were closer to the end than the beginning in terms of us realizing what it should bring to the island. Economic.
So for us to not have that continue and finish within the next, I want to say next two years, that really would be devastating for us.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: Final question for you this morning, Independence. Do you think the time has come for Tobago to be able to stand on its own and govern itself?
[00:01:48] Speaker C: I have always said and would continue to say until a child is able to manage their own money and create their own wealth, I do not know that they're in a position to tell anybody that I need to pack my bags and go on my own.
[00:02:01] Speaker A: I thank you very much, Ms. Haddad, for chatting with me this morning. Do have yourself a safe and productive day on the island. Take care.
[00:02:07] Speaker C: Thank you very much.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: You're welcome.
And as we turn our attention now back to Trinidad and Tobago, again, both islands considered, given the fact that we are twin island Republic, we have with us the former finance minister, Minister Karen Inez Isheira. And I say good morning to you, ma' am.
[00:02:24] Speaker B: Good morning to you, too.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: It's always good to have you back in studio with me. Thank you very much. I want to ask you a question right out of gates. When it comes to the handing over procedures and policies, are there any in place for the outgoing versus the incoming?
[00:02:38] Speaker B: Well, speaking from my experience as Minister of Finance, when Winston Dukaran took over as the Minister of Finance, what happened was he asked to meet with me and I came in and met with him and I didn't destroy any documents. I didn't have any documents to destroy. So he had a good indication of what we had done, where we had reached. And it was a very productive meeting. It was a very good meeting. And I was always open to making myself available. I cannot speak for every minister's approach, but certainly my approach was helping the then minister to be able to make a smooth transition and understand where we had reached with the various projects. So, speaking for myself, we did meet and I was open to meeting again.
[00:03:26] Speaker A: But that was based on a request coming from the incoming finance minister.
[00:03:30] Speaker B: Yes. Because I don't think, you know, I'm sure you follow the politics even in the United States. It just may be a little bit of a tangential comment I'm making, but people have been criticizing Biden for coming out too early because they said that most persons who have held those type of posts should give the new administration opportunity to breathe and that it's not a good look. And they actually praised what's his name who had got peanut farmer who had gotten a lot of criticism and died recently. So to answer your question, I think the invitation must come from them because you are being, you are no longer the minister. You are an answer to the new minister and you have to respect that. So it is up to them if they want to ask you. And I certainly did not show any hostility to doing that at all.
[00:04:16] Speaker A: Because one of the things we get that tit for tat and that back and forth in the ground.
Diane Hadad had alluded to the fact that we are no longer willing to take this myopic approach, this rhetoric in our air that every time a government comes in, the treasury empties cobwebs and cockroaches in the corner, you continue to get that being spewed and nobody to come in and say, no, that's not true. This is where we left it. And this is what you're going to be taking up. And be it factual or not, is it that could we say that we just want to make the incoming look bad with the outgoing look bad. We fighting one against the next rather than just being for the people. You lost, you lost the election, so that's fine. Tell me what's happening.
[00:04:51] Speaker B: Well, I think you have to address it because. But how long you address it and how many times you address it as if it's your swan song and a defense for your poor performance. And I will say that Minister, the former Minister Coleman Booth, because I looked through the budget speeches and at least for many, many budget speeches, he would start with that and after a while people got tired of it. But I think because we've had so many economists commenting on the state of the economy, because a lot of the information is available online and because we have the central bank doing a media review, I think people have a fairly good idea that that is not just talk.
I hope that they're not going to spend too much time, but they have to because promises were made on the campaign trail and people obviously have an expectation, but that expectation has to be taken into account the economic or financial situation that we, that the current government is going to meet.
And so I think you have to do some of that. You have to do some of that. But how long you do it and you know, and manner in which you do it, I think people don't want that kind of, kind of, as you said, tit for tat kind of thing. They're tired of it.
[00:06:05] Speaker A: All right, so moving further afield now, the economy, the economic state of our economy seems to be doom and gloom at the moment. Mrs. Kamala Posad bises is promising that she was going to make good on those salary promises and stuff, stuff like that. And people wondering where she getting money from.
[00:06:18] Speaker B: Well, I think she said it and I think what she tried to hit last yesterday when I listened to her on the media conference was to hit a optimistic note. She kept on saying, we will fix it, we will fix it.
She said that the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Public Administration, Economic Development and Affairs, former colleague of mine with whom I have a very good relationship, I will say Kennedy saw they are supposed to have a press conference today. But how she indicated, I mean, the reality is she did say that based on the numbers coming out and also based on the budget, that the former minister Colin Booth indicated that they would have about a 4 point something billion expenditure, fiscal deficit, so that we would be in a debt position of over 4 point something billion, because I think the expenditure was 59 billion and the expected or projected revenue was about 59. So that is not an, you know, that's not a secret. And so but she's saying, I think they're saying there's going to be more in the region, 11 billion. So we wait and see.
[00:07:20] Speaker A: 11 billion, yes.
[00:07:21] Speaker B: And somebody said 12, but we'll wait and see, you know, because. But the thing about it is she has had to do the same thing basically that this government was doing, which I don't know if they should have done it because they should have been more proactive. But I'm not going to go down that road. She did. She said, for example, the overdraft in the central bank, there's $2.6 billion there. They're going to utilize that. She's also said that she's going to draw down from the Heritage and Stabilization Fund. Now when you do that, you don't have to pay it back because HSF is an investment vehicle. So when you take that out, it's not, you don't have to pay it back and you hope that the investments that are made, which they have done well, will recover. So that's the HSF which has about 6 billion US in it. And there was an amendment to the HSF legislation that allowed the taking out of monies out of HSF beyond what was initially stated in the original version. She also said that it would be the central bank would be then offering for sale treasury bills which have a shorter shelf life. Again, that's going to be, you know, it's a difficult thing because when you sell treasury bills, you're taking money out of the system. And the system is already has a money deficit, which is why the repurchase rate by the central bank a state of 350, that's the rate that the central bank kind of indicates to the commercial banks at the starting point for your borrowing rate. And then the reserve requirement is what they tell the banks that they must keep in, in currency. In events people want to withdraw. It used to be 10% that they had to keep in reserve. Now they're allowed 14%. So the bottom line to all I'm saying is she has indicated that she's going to have to raise money and the money she's going to raise is for recurrent expenditure, which is salaries and pension. And she said that later on she expects to revive the revenue streams and I guess she's going to rely on the manufacturing sector with her appointment.
Sasha, head of Sasha and you know, he gave a good account of himself and she Expects that saw. I know that he expects Kennedy swatzing minister to be able to help. He has been a cabinet member already and I think he has some ideas.
[00:09:39] Speaker A: As to how we can sustain and grow the economy.
[00:09:41] Speaker B: But the immediate situation is taking on more debt. It is taking on more debt and it is for paying recurrent expenditure.
[00:09:49] Speaker A: Well, she has already taken prudent approaches in terms of dealing when it comes to cutting back on some of state funded for ministers. You are a former minister and she talked about if you're living down Moruga and you have to traverse to Port of Spain to get to your ministry at the end of the day use the highway that we build is a 45 minute drive and go back down. Go back down in your house. If you, if you want a house up in the, up in the in Port of Spain area, pay for it.
[00:10:18] Speaker B: Yeah, well that's about optics because in, in real terms I don't think it makes a big difference to any budgetary. No, it's optics.
She has said that she's government and of the people and a lot of the dissatisfaction with the public is the SRC where they gave themselves 47% increase, a million dollar pension and the trade unions they want to give them 2%, 3%. So she understands that that was like the breaking point, this straw that broke the camel's back. So I am you asking me as a former minister and I was in cabinet, I was an MP so I'm utilizing my experience in that field and I understand that she wants to set the right tone at this point in time that she is taking up a stern position with regard. But you realize when they asked her, I think Akash Samaroo asked her would you now go back and pull back against the salaries that you would have been given because you have your government, your opposition as opposition you were very much against the increases. And then she said to ask John Jeremy to come forward. I don't know exactly what John Jeremy said. To be very honest. He looked a little flummox, he looked a little confused. But he said anyhow he didn't. It wasn't very convincing. And then they asked her will you take that back? And she clearly said she's not taking it back. And then they asked her, well you know when you were there you made them give 10% of their salaries to the children's fund. And she said no, she's not going to make them do that. So you know it's okay.
[00:11:49] Speaker A: So optics.
[00:11:50] Speaker B: Well look at that. Optics. She's not taking. She keeping her Salary. Well one, one attorney said she can't, she can't do anything about it. I don't know if she can't do anything about it. You pass laws in Parliament.
[00:12:01] Speaker A: Well, well, well at the moment but she probably don't realize. I don't know how you mean.
[00:12:05] Speaker B: I don't know she's an attorney or she's senior counsel.
[00:12:08] Speaker A: Yeah, but, but.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: And she, and they had a big first cabinet meeting to deal with abolishing the ttre which I think is a really bad move. She had to stand your ground together with the ful. Everybody can apply, everybody. And then she had this thing with us doing shoot them now just standing some and stand your ground legislation is a very serious. And listen, when businessmen are given this, they don't wear body camera, you know and dead men tell no tales, you know. So I find I am very concerned about that. And she seems wedded to that. And she seems for whatever reason she pushing that agenda and she pushing the TTRA. And the reason that I was responsible for the ttra. So when I was in government. Right. So. And we had a three fifths majority that ttra. You're saying you want to do all this public sector reform. The public sector is in a mess. The public sector needs restructuring. Well guess what? The TTRA was based on taking the Board of Inland Revenue and Customs outside of the public sector so that you could hire fire transfer discipline using metrics and performance indicators that did not allow for the security of tenure. And the concerns that this gentleman did the report in 2002. Dean Dean, the report which I used and talking about.
Take it off. Okay. Talking about, talking about. God, sorry, I'm tying up myself. Talking about the reasons why they needed a TTRA. And a lot of it was the corruption, A lot of it was the mismanagement, a lot of it was the inefficiencies. So it looks like the TTRA when I was there the PSA came in my office in I think so I'm talking from experience and it was the gentleman pdp, he spoke to me, roughed me up in front of everybody. And they were very much, very much against the TTRE because they understood that the public sector and what this version of the TTRE is because they didn't have the 3 5th majority. Partly that I'm sure but not only that they gave a watered down version of the TTRE which meant that the enforcement end which is really the important one. You cannot. Based on our model and we had the help of the USA and you can't work in that sect in that section. Unless you do a drug testing, you do a lie detector testing. In other words, you can apply, but you're not necessarily going to get in.
And what has happened, they have kept that part of the revenue authority under the current model in the psc, the public sector, the public service. So that what was the point?
But so I am saying in conclusion on that everyone, they have spoken about why Jabi Tjari I am saying the reason and I have to say it. The psa, former PSA president is now Minister of Labor and they supported her, the union supported her. And I am saying that to me, the main reason why you should not abandon the ttre. And now you have a three first majority. So you could go back to the original model.
This is something that's done. Barbados started when I was living in Barbados. That are revenue. Everybody have a revenue authority.
They must have a reason why they have it. And you have a reason why you don't want it.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: A reason why you don't want it.
What about the removal of land and bill taxes and.
[00:15:35] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:36] Speaker A: And then property tax? Sorry. And then because it went from land and building tax to property tax. And I will correct you.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: Sorry, I don't mean to.
[00:15:43] Speaker A: No, that's okay.
[00:15:44] Speaker B: That's okay. Sorry.
[00:15:45] Speaker A: I am good with that. Listen, I'm one of the most humblest.
[00:15:48] Speaker B: Most humblest. That's how humble you are.
You're most humblest.
[00:15:54] Speaker A: The most humblest down to the ground. I'm very humble. I'm very humble.
[00:15:57] Speaker B: You all should be.
[00:16:00] Speaker A: If I earn any statement, I'm always good for correction.
[00:16:03] Speaker B: I make mistakes.
[00:16:04] Speaker A: So when we look at situations such as the property tax and the opening of the refinery, how sustainable are these two things, especially the refinery? How sustainable is that for us? $1 billion every year?
Well, one economist was saying it's 1 billion every year approximately for every time we don't go to it. So if we wait another year, you gotta recheck everything. Pipes, fixtures, the entire plant has to be inspected all over again and maybe outfitted with new things because remember, it has been dormant for six years.
[00:16:37] Speaker B: So when she spoke about it, I don't know if people listened to her carefully. She said we have to do an assessment. She ended by saying, I think I heard a C. Let me correct myself, I believe I heard a C. At the end of seeing, you know, there's a reopening of the refinery, she kind of, you know, put a little pause on it by saying she has to do an assessment. So to Answer your question. That has been a very opaque, very unclear situation. Exactly what is a refining position? Because what I do remember was two weeks or three weeks before we had the elections. Dr. Rowley at Vesseny School in Down south, which I came from, so I know where it is. And he said, what's wrong with patriots? I'm ready to sign. I'm ready to sign. That's what he said, right. And then Colin in booth as former minister of finance said they could restructure the loan because they said they had a bullet payment coming up of US $850 million which they borrowed with that gas to liquid project with.
Oh gosh, he died good friends of Mr. Manning anyhow, Malcolm Jones. And he said that he could restructure the loan then you're hearing now that if a refinery now with the gas oil trading at 64, 56, $65, maybe it's okay to do it because refining means that you will be buying gas, which we have always done, sorry, crude oil, we've done it since Texaco days. So all you'll be doing now is it would be cheaper to do it now. And not only that, you will not have to spend that money. The Paria trading is spending in importing fuel, refined fuel, including bitumen. We have to employ bitumen. So Elite Asphalt is like a stepchild right now.
An orphan really, where it was not before. And so that they're saying that to restart the refinery will cost between US600 million and 1,600 million to US$1 billion. But right now, because fuel, refining fuel and the cost of crude oil has gone down significantly and it looks like it will stay there because the OPEC countries and plus 10, which is non OPEC oil producing countries, they are flooding the market with oil and keeping the price of crude oil, at least that's what all the pundits say, that's going to stay low and it's good for us because it affects the fuel subsidy. The cheaper the crude, the, the narrow subsidy. And secondly, if you're refining oil at a cheaper cost, buying it at a cheaper cost, it should mean that we should make a greater profit from it. And also too we would not be importing the fuel that we were doing the OWTU under the Freedom of Information act last year for the first three months they got the information that in the first three months they imported us $340 million worth of fuel. Now they didn't keep oil in Trinidad, they sold it up some of the islands. But that is a foreign exchange issue. So I think it's early days. We don't really know. I know that I'll say one last thing. Wilfred Espiny, who was the chairman of Petroton at the time, under cross examination in industrial court by Douglas Mendez, he was asked straight out, did you recommend the closure of Petroton? He said no, I recommended restructuring, yes. And also too there was these two major consultants, consultancy firm, internationally recognized, Solomon and someday another one. They made recommendations as how we could restructure these refinery and make a profit. And they said in quarter three they had made 118 million US profit as a consequence of taking into account the recommendations of the consultants. So I don't have the answer now and neither does the Prime Minister.
So she was a little guarded with that. But I could see that it would revive because it's, you know, it's a domino effect. It's not only the person working in refinery business, but the banks, restaurants, everybody's affected. Is thousands and thousands directly or indirectly impacted. They say that Marabella is like a ghost town now.
[00:20:44] Speaker A: Yeah. So the thing about it is I often wonder if she misspoke on that, on that campaign trail about I'm going to open the refinery. And now she's. The realization is hitting in. We had to pull the plug a little bit because we had to reassess this entire thing.
[00:20:58] Speaker B: Well, I think that's what she said. I want to be careful that I did here qualify what she said. But I'm. She. I don't think she pulled. I don't know, I don't, I don't.
[00:21:06] Speaker A: Think she pulled it back. But she's now reassessing.
[00:21:08] Speaker B: Yeah, she's more careful.
[00:21:09] Speaker A: She's a little more careful.
[00:21:11] Speaker B: Yeah. But she has set a optimistic note and I mean, what is she going to do? She has all this debt. I mean when we were there in government and Even under Manning, Mr. Manning and even, I'm sure under her government, we never spent, never borrowed too much on the external market. You know, we borrowed and that was a policy position because you said you have to borrow something because the rating agencies have to see that if you float an international bond that you're able to pay the coupon rate, which is the interest rate every six months. You need a track record and you. Exactly. Because that helps your rating. But we only very little. Because I remembered looking, you know, looking at it and it's very little. He explained it, they explained it to me that that was the thinking. So most of it is local but this time around they borrowed a huge amount on the international market because they probably saturated the local market. And that is they're saying now that the equivalent in foreign exchange, which has gone down to 5.2 billion for the last figures that they released from 10.6 in 2015, it's, I mean that's by half. And they're saying that the bond, when you look at the payments, which is debt you have taken on, that is debt bonds are borrowing that you have taken and you have to pay it, you have to pay that. And the periods are longer, it's like 10, 15 years. So it's for big huge projects like highways and as opposed to a Treasury bill which is like six months, a year shorter period. They're saying that the amount that we are borrowed on in terms of bonds issued is equal to our foreign exchange reserves.
So but you're not going to have to pay it now because remember, it's over a 15, 20 year period.
[00:22:44] Speaker A: Because I was now about to ask you from a layman's perspective, we understand when we borrow and we take one of the longest loans or financial arrangement or agreement citizens can get into is a mortgage, a home mortgage, all right? Not even a business loan last that long. So a mortgage is a 25 year, 30 year, you know, child that you're going to be minding. That's a fixed payment. You have to pay for the next 30 years as your mortgage payment. By the time you pay that off, depending on your age, you retire, your children benefit. What happens, I mean, if you don't pay to take back the house, what happened?
[00:23:20] Speaker B: Not exactly. So it's not so simple because they change the laws that are called. It's an equitable remedy. So you can't just.
The right of redemption, equity of redemption. Anyway, we're not here to talk law, but it's not so straightforward as you're saying.
[00:23:32] Speaker A: I'm saying, but what happens in a situation with country, when a country is unable to repay its international debt to the international debtors, look what they're going to be.
[00:23:40] Speaker B: Their bonds will be junk bonds and who's going to borrow? Who's going to lend? You the foreign direct investors going on, they're looking at standard and pause Moody's and they look to see what is the rating for your bond. And we are just above junk status, at least that's the last time I checked. So if you have to make an investment, let's be, you know, if you're going to make an investment, yes, higher risk, more return. But are you going to take that risk when there's so many opportunities globally now to invest. So when you take out a bond, and it's an international bond, you have a payer coupon rate, which is the interest by the end of the bond period. You, it's not like a mortgage when you pay it every, every year for 25 years. And then you get back, you know, you, you get your house, you know it's transferred to you, you get the legal and equitable rights to the property. But with a bond, you're paying a coupon interest rate on the bond and the more your rating is bad, the higher the interest rate you have to pay. You can't. That makes sense.
[00:24:41] Speaker A: Right, Makes sense.
[00:24:42] Speaker B: And then at the end, end of the bond period, you have to pay back the entire amount that you borrowed.
That's what it is. So during the life of the bond, because they would. What's the, what's the point for them lending you it? They have to make money off of it.
[00:24:55] Speaker A: They need to make money.
[00:24:55] Speaker B: And it's usually made up of a consortium of businesses and banks because it's for building highways, hospitals, schools. So it's not a little bit of dollars. So you usually have to borrow on the international market and you usually have to get the big investors to take up your bond and then you hear the coupon rate through the life of the bond and then at the end you have to pay the amount that you borrowed.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: When we look at the state of the economy based on the realization that is coming to the forefront now, all ministry is maxed out.
A statement like that means what she says. All ministries maxed, every ministry is maxed out.
[00:25:32] Speaker B: I'm not sure what you mean by that. You know, that might be a bit of hyperbole, a little bit exaggerated. I don't know and I don't want to put myself in to make a definitive statement because I don't know. And we might get clarity as we go on. As she said, it's only one week, so we have to give her some grace. I don't, you know, you have to give us some reason. She has, you can see that the ministers have been putting their, they're being, you know, this time, you know, ready to hit the road running. And so we have to give her some grace and see how it thing because a day in politics is a lifetime. You know, you have to wait, let's say a month, two months from now and you can get a better assessment. But I just want to say something about the energy because that's the backbone. She says the backbone and the front bone. But it's true. It is. And you know, I mean, it's no rocket science, which is why we really have to find additional revenue streams, which is why I think that trade and investment appointment with the Sasha CEO, when he talked about he started it in his house and what it came to be, an international success and trading on Amazon, I think that was a good appointment based on his portfolio, his cv. So I think she's putting all the emphasis on manufacturing and the agri and agribusiness because she said Waterloo Moruga, we hear you. You have been neglected all this time. We are going to give you. And that is rural communities. I hope she's going to do that same thing in the urban communities, push the agri and agribusiness. So I see that she's going to push that. But energy is still front and center. That is the. That still. And it's going to be like that for a little while at least. You know, it's going to be so. So I have brought it up because I have been reading Newsday. I'm not pushing anybody, but I think they did an excellent, excellent job on explaining the energy issue. And the issue with that is that, you know, given this thing of optimism about Grenada, Guyana and Suriname, that is not the reality.
That is not the reality. The reality is to be fair to Stuart Young, I have to be fair to him when he, I believe part of the reason he pushed Dragonfield so hard is because Dragonfield has 4.3 trillion cubic feet of proven natural of gas. And the distance from the gas field in Venezuela to the Shell Hibiscus platform, which would then take the gas down to the Atlantic LNG and down to the downstream industries, was 11 mile, 18 kilometers. Now when you look at Suriname and you look again, I wrote it down and I can't find it now that I wrote it down because I said when I come here, I'm tired of looking it up and then not writing it down. But in any way.
[00:28:16] Speaker A: You wrote it down.
[00:28:16] Speaker B: Yes, I wrote it down. I got it now.
[00:28:18] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:28:18] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:28:18] Speaker B: So for Guyana, it's 695km, 432 miles. Suriname is even worse. It's 945km and 407 miles. And Grenada is 100 miles, 160km. But even with Guyana and Suriname, it's the same problem that you have in Dragonfield because it is true that you will have to pass the pipelines through Venezuela. No, you think Maduro going to let you pass your pipeline, but that is the whole thing without paying a substantial tariff to him. To him. Especially when the gas, the Dragonfly not working and he can't get any money there.
[00:28:54] Speaker A: And that is what is mind boggling. Because if you go as the crow flies, you had to come through Venezuela.
[00:29:00] Speaker B: And you have to because look at, I remember, I do not know if this informal government did any kind of real in depth consultation with Ghana or Suriname. But I do know when I was looking at the research in the very early years, well, Ghana was now a good friend then because you remember Dr. Rowley when he had an international energy conference, he went Europe. Well, he learned his lesson a little too late.
[00:29:25] Speaker A: Too late.
[00:29:25] Speaker B: But anyhow, he learned his lesson. So I remember they said we don't want your factory, I mean a refinery because it's old. And we have an agreement with the doctor. We don't want natural gasoline making sense to us. The pipeline is going to be too long. Is it economically feasible? And now Guyana is building their own two gas lines, one for domestic to cut the cost of electricity. And that will help everybody in Ghana. And another big one, we should use much more natural gas supposed to go to burbies for the downfield downstream industries. So what I am saying is I don't know where we going with Suriname and Guyana because you still have to deal with Venezuela. And that's the reason Dragonfield did not come off the ground. Not because, not for any other reason except Venezuela and United States relationship. And finally Grenada. They must read the newspapers. They'll get a good understanding.
[00:30:15] Speaker A: But Grenada not even ready yet.
[00:30:16] Speaker B: Wait, no, no, no, that's not, that's not true. You have to read the articles because they are 100 miles, which is much closer.
[00:30:23] Speaker A: Closer.
[00:30:23] Speaker B: Right. They're not going through Venezuela.
[00:30:25] Speaker A: No, that's good.
[00:30:26] Speaker B: But when you do the reading on it, you realize, yes, they entered into a memorandum of understanding with our government in 2018. But you have to, you know, I can't remember everything but they did something with a Russian company and more recently a Russian. The Russian company partnered with the Chinese, some Chinese company to have a production sharing contract very recently.
So if they have a production sharing contract, I think the agreement was that we would get first dibs on any natural gas to be able to purchase it. But I don't know whether we'll succeed as the nutmeg field which is just bordering Guyana, sorry, Grenada and Trinidad.
[00:31:04] Speaker A: So let's put a pin right there. Take a break for the news.
I'll keep you right after the newscast and chat a little more probably take a call or two before we wrap the interview Stick with us we take a break the best insight, instant feedback accountability the all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5 Mrs. Nunezhara Former finance Minister in studio with me that was the Prime Minister of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago in her press cabinet briefing last evening we will fix it.
We will fix it.
She sound convincing?
[00:31:43] Speaker B: Yeah and I'll give her time because.
[00:31:44] Speaker A: I given her time yeah she deserves.
[00:31:47] Speaker B: That, you know so let's not be quick to judgement Can I just say one thing? Of course you can say something before we deal with finish with the energy sector which gives us the hope and then some of the appointments she has made I have a lot of confidence in those appointments Commission of inquiry she promised Peter Pumel that she would publish the commission of inquiry into CL Financial I hope that she sticks to that promise because I have certainly asked for the last how many years for the Dr. Rowley to release that commission of inquiry in which I think that whatever their reasons are they're not good and I think that $100 million was spent on that and on a personal level I have been affected by it I have to say but also the country is entitled to find out exactly what went up happened and I'm happy to hear that she is prepared that as the Prime Minister to release her so that's all I would like to see on that matter to come back to the energy when she said we'll fix it yeah there are a lot of positive things it is true for example the SIP gas field came on stream as promised by I think it's by BP BPTT it came on stream this year they said it was going to come on stream this year and it came on stream that's one Then you have the Lauren Manatee the Lauren Manatee was delinked the Lawrence in Venezuelan waters over 7.2 trillion cubic feet and we have 2 point something but that trillion cubic feet and I think that they will have to delink it they did delete it and having delinked it as the Lauren Manatee the manatees in our waters and I think that Shell says that that will come to gas by 2027 then we have the Coquina Mannequin which is a cross border field and I imagine that BPTT made a final investment decision but now they got they're going to have to delink that one from the Venezuelan site In addition BPT not BPTBT International launch or published that they have 10 global projects gas fields that they have pursuing and they believe that they're going to be big players in the market. And one of them is Ginger and it is in our waters.
[00:33:56] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:33:57] Speaker B: 10 global things. So that gives you an idea. And there's also of course in nutmeg, but we have to see how that.
And then they have 26 blocks which the current former minister, to give him that credit in the deep sea water competitive bid, he got a poor response in, in 2022 to that. But because this is very important for people to know, bp, tt, Shell and Exxon, all the big players have pivoted away from green energy back to hydrocarbons. They pulled 5 billion billion US out of the green energy transition and put $10 billion US into hydrocarbons. So they say oil is back to stay. So it is to our benefit to have that development because the cleanest of the hydrocarbons is natural gas. So that is good news for Trinidad. So when she says we will fix it.
Yes, a lot of work was done by the former Stuart Young, but he inherited from Cannes, God rest his soul. So what I am seeing on the horizon, we may have a difficult time for about two years in which you will have to look at other revenue streams. And that was the question I was.
[00:35:04] Speaker A: Coming to, you know, because this is futuristic planning here. This is not good.
[00:35:08] Speaker B: It's good planning.
[00:35:08] Speaker A: Right, but. But why the grass growing, cows starving, so to speak. So what are we going to do to sustain ourselves in the interim?
[00:35:16] Speaker B: You have to understand that is why PNM didn't win. You can't blame her for 10 years. It's not five years is 10 years. So she's coming in. And it's not to say that was a secret. People voted on the economy and crime. That was the vote. Right. So it is not any secret that this, the situation in the country is bad. And there's no question a lot of it has to be with poor decisions and prime. Former prime ministers say diversification. Diversification, what an annoying word, you know, that kind of nonsense. And importing $7 billion of food into this country and not really focusing on caricom. Why are you running after Ven? Well, I understood, I gave an explanation, but still, what about your CARICOM members? Why don't you create those linkages which Mr. Manning was very instrumental.
You know what I would say people will give her some grace. She didn't create the. It's not five years, it's 10 years. Right.
[00:36:07] Speaker A: And that's the thing, you know, she has. They had to comb through. I Mean, people was shocked to know that Minister Dave Tanko was saying that he needed some time to go through the finances.
[00:36:17] Speaker B: But he does.
[00:36:17] Speaker A: But he does. I'm looking. This is not five. I told him in a radio program a few days ago, this is 10 years. This is a decade of work of nine and nine budgets.
[00:36:28] Speaker B: And this government, 600 billion government is not known for his transparency, accountability. Just look at the refinery. I just have to say that. Why wasn't it done by become a regulator, Ms. Khan, she said she is. No way. She's not involved in it. Why? Because they wouldn't pass the regulations. Why? They wouldn't pass the regulations? Since nine years. They had a joint select committee meeting and the Permanent Secretary said, no, no, no, we have the regulations. Just that Cabinet hasn't approved it as yet. Why? Why aren't you approving it? So, you know, you have to give us some grace. We have to give her time. Let us see what happens. I'm not. I'm saying with the energy sector, a lot of what is happening now happened under PNM administration, to be fair.
[00:37:03] Speaker A: And it's not her fault.
[00:37:05] Speaker B: No, no.
[00:37:05] Speaker A: It's.
[00:37:05] Speaker B: God, I mean, the advancements in terms of the 26 blocks. I'm talking about the ginger field. That didn't happen last week.
[00:37:12] Speaker A: True.
[00:37:13] Speaker B: Right. So let us be fair in our assessment. It just takes time. You have to first determine the infrastructure, you have to determine the proven.
[00:37:22] Speaker D: You.
[00:37:22] Speaker B: Know, how much proven gas you have there for my little understanding of it. So, you know, you have to give them. Give them time.
[00:37:28] Speaker A: All right, let's take a call quickly. Hello. Good morning.
Hello.
[00:37:34] Speaker B: Yeah, Good morning again. Mr. DV, Mr.
Princess Tong. Mr.
[00:37:39] Speaker E: I would like to hear your views.
If the refinery is reopened, whether via.
[00:37:46] Speaker B: Lease or sale, what impact it will have on the economy in the short term and on the long term.
[00:37:54] Speaker E: Would you recommend that?
[00:37:55] Speaker D: Thank you, Princess.
[00:37:57] Speaker B: You know, my answer is that is probably the same thing that the Prime Minister did. She hedged her bet because you have to go in there. There's so many, so many unknowns. So that, for instance, when they said that they were going ahead with the refinery and they were going to sign with Patriots, just on the eve of that, the Toronto and Tobago Petroleum Holdings Limited pulled back off because they said that the loan or whatever borrowing they were making, that the lenders were insisting that if Petrotrend failed and did not deliver, it would not just be Petrotrend, but it would also be Heritage and Paria. So it's early days. It's A good thing is employment, not only direct but indirect. It's going back to the using the expertise that we have in that field. And right now refining is making a comeback because as I said, all the big players are pivoting back to hydrocarbons. Go to oil price.com There was a recent article just two days ago and it is confirming the approach to hydrocarbons.
[00:38:54] Speaker A: What about the last government?
They were saying that when they got into office in 2015 they received a deficit.
And if that was the case, they seemed to the last 10 years they was working on paying it off.
[00:39:09] Speaker B: I don't know if that's so because when they came in for my readings and I just have to rely on what I read. But I think it's a good sources they had said that they met 114 billion. I think this guy Ogmongle, Joshua C. Mongol in the Guardian a very, very good article.
And they met 114 billion deficit. Now that they're leaving the debt is 141 billion. So it's much more than what they inherited. So they shouldn't have made it more. They should try to pay it down something not nematodes.
[00:39:44] Speaker A: And that's from the PNM side of things. That's from the PNM side of Things. I have a question for you, Mrs. Teixeira. The question is you are well, you are a well learned person who has a lot to offer and contribute to our beautiful country. Will you be willing to accept any position if offered by the government to be of service?
[00:40:02] Speaker B: Yes, I would. But I wouldn't, I would not do like Mr. Gary Griffith.
I have to say that I've said oh my God, he has no self respect.
I mean you bad talk the lady left, right and center. You didn't do like pep and take back it back to eat your words, right? You take a strong position. Things didn't work out. You wanted only 5,000 votes and they put up so many candidates and you were campaigning so many, so long. And Michaela Bannon, who I love dearly, loved dearly, had no truck, had no banners, had no thing and she got over 21,000 votes. So I know I went off the point, but I certainly not going to push myself because I'm not going to do that. But if they ask me, yes, I.
[00:40:45] Speaker A: Will help and I'm happy to hear you say that. Hello. Good morning.
[00:40:48] Speaker E: Morning David. And your honorable guest here, Mr.
The Calypso Field, that joint enterprise between Woodside and BP.
Now the government had discussions and negotiations about that field.
But I don't know if there was the projection of being between Woodside and BP but I don't know if any final investment decision has been made. But they have about 3.2 billion cubic feet of natural gas there. I'm not saying about that.
Would you like to comment on that please?
[00:41:23] Speaker B: Well, there are a number of gas fields and I know that is one of the many that they have and it takes time from my understanding they have to do some field investigation because even the nutmeg what I understood that they are taking started the work the Russians are done and then they just closed the field down and so that they don't So a lot of work had not been done. So to answer your question, I expect all of the once is economically feasible and once we are going to make that much needed US currency I don't think that the government is going to It'll be foolhardy of them not to look into especially when the Venezuela issue For the moment I am not one who said it's dead. For the moment it is all right.
[00:42:05] Speaker A: Hello.
Good morning.
[00:42:07] Speaker D: Good morning. Good morning.
Now let. Let's start please leave just alone. You ask a question first.
This administration said that this is one month they have a shortfall, a deficit for that month. But under in 2010, when the PNM inherited this administration we had three quarters of negative growth. That's two different things. That means I was in a recession after three quarters of negative growth, I'm in recession. This is just one month.
One month. So they're not claiming a recession where the PNM was clear, where the governor the central bank said to us three quarters of negative growth, that's what they inherited. So I inherited a recession comparing have a shortfall for a month which I could as we outlined could pull money from this ministry, that ministry and make up my shortfall. Or so the economics is two different. The inheritance is two different.
That's the first thing I would like. And again we come back when you look at the economy they are stating you see if you look at this number we are still in the same economic position as the PNM outline. The benefits that we intend to eradicate is going to be in 2027. Hopefully we have to ban rebellion then isn't it the same thing they are telling us now? So the promise is as she outlined, we are going to fix it. And we had said that this is where the economy was and we see it. So then if you had known all of that then why make all these promises with the Intention that we still had a tightening belt until 2027. Davy, enjoy your morning.
[00:43:46] Speaker B: Ladies and gentlemen, Can I just say to that with the growth and this is coming from the economists, I don't want to quote anyone in particular, but from 2015, I think up to 2020, I don't want to go further than that. There was negative, 20% negative growth in our economy only in 2022 that we saw a minor positive of 1 point something. And then I think the central bank is anticipating 2.5 for the. This, this period. But when you look at the other Caribbean countries and I did look at them and everybody was hit by the COVID except Guyana, they took about 11 year to make significant growth positive growth. I don't have the figures with me right now, but if you go to any budget, they always look at where other countries are doing. And when I go to the central bank data and you will see that Jamaica, Barbados, the Eastern Caribbean, every single one of them by 2022, 2023, 2024 have been said. Where is Trinidad and Tobago? You cannot. That's one thing. The second thing is she's playing politics, okay? She's playing politics because she cannot deliver right away. Everybody, everybody had to have known that. I mean now she's had to say. I didn't say exactly when. But we are in this hole. We are in this hole primarily, in my respectful opinion, by a mismanagement of our economy and a kind of a.
You know, we are here because they refuse to do what Create revenue streams. Look, I just read today now the banks are saying you can't get more.
[00:45:25] Speaker A: Than $500 one particular bank.
[00:45:26] Speaker B: Right? One bank. But it's going to follow because all of them follow it at the end of the day because the problem is no forex. No forex. And why it is that one banking institution is one of the 13 has two things at the two bites of the cherry with two of their banks being given the foreign exchange. That is. Something is not right about that. Okay? So let us not try to go into that thing and be too emotional. Sorry. I. I really respect how you may feel, but the reality is we are here where we are because the former administration did not put us at a large extent where we are.
And let's see what she does because if we got the same results, we will also critique it too. In the same way. I will critique it the same way.
[00:46:15] Speaker A: All right, so Ms. Karen Nunez, I want to thank you very much for passing through with us this morning. Always a pleasure. When my producer tells me Karen is in the morning. I'm like, yes, thank you very much. She's coming with a wealth of information. One texter is saying she's correct. All other countries economy rebound hours in a mess. Karen is correct. Another one sent me this morning. She's correct, she's on point. So, I mean, I'm always excited to chat with Mrs. Karen. In essence, the best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.
