ZOSO REJECTION / IMPLICATIONS PROS AND CONS

[00:00:00] Speaker A: You're tuned into the all new Freedom Formal 6.5. Formal 6.5. [00:00:06] Speaker B: And we're going to be chatting about the Zozo rejection and implication, the pros and the cons. Good morning to you Mr. Hamil Smith. Good morning. [00:00:15] Speaker A: Good morning. Very great to be here on the Freedom. [00:00:18] Speaker B: Oh, thank you so much for getting up and chatting with us this morning. But before we we go forward, somebody asked me can you identify or at least give us the scope of work that is put upon or expected of a Senate president? What does the Senate President do? [00:00:43] Speaker A: So the Senate President there is first of all he has to ensure. [00:00:50] Speaker C: That. [00:00:51] Speaker A: The senators abide by the they are standing orders which require a certain methodology, certain positions to be adopted in relation to the carried on conduct of the proceedings in the Senate and he is there to act as the referee if you like, if people go beyond the boundaries of what is permissible. [00:01:22] Speaker B: But is that different to the speaker of the House? [00:01:25] Speaker A: No, they're very much, they have the same sort of routine. They said it can be a somewhat more placid if you want place because it's more partisan there. But no, it's by and large they do have different standing orders. So there are some differences. Yes, but not in, in real substance. [00:01:48] Speaker B: All right, I, I hope that cleared it clears up for you. Texter, thank you so much for sharing the thought this morning when I made mention that you were they asked me to find out and see if we can verify that. Now with that being said, Zosis, let's talk a little bit about why that bill did not see the light of day. [00:02:10] Speaker A: Well, I mean the long and short of it is you require a three fifths majority and therefore, you know, given what had happened in the House one you, you couldn't have expected that the opposition would be supporting it. So therefore, you know, everybody coming to the Senate to debate that bill would have known you needed to get at least four independent senators supporting the bill if it was going to be approved that particular day. Well, it didn't happen all in one day. The debate took place over a few days and Senators as I understand it, wanted certain, certain amendments to the bill and the Attorney general made known that the time didn't permit. If you make amendments, by the way, you should realize that if you make amendments in the Senate, that means that you have to go back down to the House to get approval. So it short circuits the time somewhat. Not that it shouldn't happen. I'm just pointing out that that's what would have flowed from, you know, One could have asked whether or not we should have. They should have started in the Senate perhaps to begin with. [00:03:37] Speaker B: But government was saying at a point in time, let's just get this bill passed and we would revisit, sit down and go through it again. I guess the independents didn't trust that process because once we pass the bill and we sign off on it, to get you back to the table to pull back and repeal certain things or even put a sunset clause in there, you know, could be a bit tricky. They did not and they didn't support it. Now, as we go forward, let's look at some of the pros and cons of Zos. In your learned and respected opinion, would this have benefited Trinidad and Tobago? [00:04:11] Speaker A: Yeah. So that, that is where, you know, I think the really beginning of conversation has to be, is there something that we have to do to change the dynamic so far as crime is concerned? If you believe that crime is out of control, then what should we do? So, you know, there was a state of emergency and Zozo was presented as something that didn't constitute a state of emergency. And you'll see that they're more balance in powers. The rights to judicial review, the rights to have been brought before the magistrate or the high court were in place with Zozo as opposed to what would happen in the state of emergency. They so that quite. I think there's a consensus that something needs to be done. What that should be is what people ask. So if I had to read into what the independent senators were saying is we needed some more checks and balances in the system than we were seeing, what would I say if I perhaps were involved? I would like to see perhaps rather than whole communities being targeted. My understanding it's sometimes two or three streets within a community where the gangs are, you know, as somebody put it, you know, 6th street and 7th street or whatever, wherever that might be, and therefore argue whether perhaps you should be micro targeting wherever that rare gang activity was taking place so that you don't besmirch the entire community, but you focus narrowly. Now, that's not to say that you can only pick out the houses where gangs are. You know, it could be two, three streets a block or whatever it is, as opposed to the entire community. But we don't know, in fact how this community was going to be determined, how the boundaries of a zone. So I would have liked to see it, you know, more finely defined as the specific area. So if you ask what I do think that I would have preferred to see a Recommendation. The Prime Minister acting on a recommendation from the Chief of Defense Staff, the Commissioner of Police, determining where those zones were as opposed to the. I think what was put down is that it was based on consultation with them. And that one may argue gave the Prime Minister too much latitude. Because in Trinidad and Tobago we know what consultation means. You know, people being consulted don't necessarily have to be taken on board. I would have liked to see more defined terms there and the leader of that ought to be those who have been asked to introduce this. This. Yeah, A lot of prisons security areas being the recommenders and the Prime Minister acting on it. So that would have been my approach to how that should be. [00:07:53] Speaker B: But given the fact that the Prime Minister would have reserved the rights solely with the powers to declare the state the community zo so will be treading on dangerous waters, having put all that power in the hands of one in politician. [00:08:08] Speaker A: Yeah, so that's what I would have preferred, a balance there. I don't think we were, you know, I do think I would imagine that that the Prime Minister would have acted reasonably. That's what you would expect. But from a legal perspective, I would have liked to have seen more power given to the Commissioner of Police and the Chief of Defence Staff in making that determination. You know, I think belong on the whole had a good intent. You know, as I say, they retain judicial review. You had the right to go, you know, before the magistrates and the High Court, which is vastly different from a state of emergency. Whereas, you see, they would have kept people locked up for six months. Yes, there's a tribunal, but we never heard of any sitting of a tribunal. So it's different, you know, in, in a significant way, I would say, from a state of emergency. And in that regard I think it was, it was important that we safeguard the protection. So there were some safeguards there in terms of community development. It would have been better, I think, if there were more specifics there. I think that if there should be poster people live up to something, not when they have to wait six months later to find out if things are going right on a monthly basis. We should have been. I think Bill should have provided for reports being made. Is crime coming under control or is it getting worse? [00:09:58] Speaker C: Are. [00:10:01] Speaker A: Students attending school or more staying away from school? Are the streets cleaner? Are people taking on that sort of responsibility? I would like to, you know, those reports being there so we could you have a check and balance as to whether. And people have a sense of that. We are emerging, we are improving coming out of this as opposed to just being waiting six months later. I do think I would have preferred to see rather than a sunset clause because I could my own. [00:10:36] Speaker C: Yes. [00:10:38] Speaker B: All right. So we have a call on the line to want to speak with you. Hello. Good morning. [00:10:42] Speaker C: Good morning once more, Davy. And to Mr. Hamel Smith, Senior counsel. Good morning. Good morning and Happy New Year. Mr. Hannah Smith. You and no mama guy are one of the most respected lawyers politicians in this country. If you were the prime minister bearing the political system and who support who and who don't support who and who oppose who and so on, if you were the prime minister of this country, what would be the measures that you will try to put in place in the fight against crime, bearing in mind the population as we see it today? I thank you. Enjoy. [00:11:16] Speaker A: Okay, so I think this also was a good measure. I think I would have liked to see more checks and balances. There was always this sense that certainly I had years ago when a state of emergency had been called. I was recommending that we should be able to have this state of emergency in areas which were more troublesome, shall we call it that, as opposed to being blanketed around the entire country. And I had made those recommendations back then. I think the, the, the PNM were in power at the time. So, you know, this is not a, a political, you know, taking sides type of issue. [00:12:01] Speaker C: All right. [00:12:02] Speaker B: Hello. Good morning. [00:12:03] Speaker C: Hey, morning. Morning. To you can say there's a comrade of mine who keeps on insisting and I do agree with him that before you implement something like these, firstly security services and their blunders must be kept in check by certain laws. And how important do you think it is? As we see we have the issue here with the opening of hands and the talk that took place with the gentleman and the lady here. So what would you recommend in terms of to clean up the police service and the scoutiest forces so that the legislature would have been better, you know, than just giving those that kind of power. Thank you. [00:12:46] Speaker A: Yeah, so the caller is right. This, the debate on this bill happened at a crucial time when things were happening on the outside which made it would make the public more concerned about how police would act. But there isn't a bill and perhaps we needed to formalize it more that there would be training of both the army and those who were allocated to carry on this job under zosu, that there would be training in terms of community development and having a different approach to interfacing with the community. So there was that sort of training that was supposed to take Place. I don't have particulars of it, but that was the intention. [00:13:35] Speaker B: So in hindsight, Zos would have been something beneficial to this country. One, if done properly and done in the correct manner, citizens could have benefited from this. What people were worried about is they being affected by their constitutional rights being suspended from them as the Zosos takes flight. That was the concern. [00:13:59] Speaker A: All right. So, yes, you know, if you have crime and one got the sense that people were saying that gangs, you were getting that idea that gangs were. There were areas in which not even the police could go, not even business could operate as it were. And therefore what was happening is the gang leader was saying, this is my community. I am the government. And that, you know, therefore, it came a point in Trinidad and Tobago where we had to make a change in how we dealt with crime. And I think there's also, by and large, could have been improved, but by and large was a good intervention with the potential not just to suppress crime, but the really potential to have communities improve. And perhaps there was less focus on that and we should be more focused in that. And there should be ports coming to parliament, coming to the public as to how, what improvements are being made to the life of citizens within that community. But I. I started off by saying I would have preferred a micro targeting. Now, I'm not in the police service or security business, so not, you know, saying I'm an expert in that area. [00:15:33] Speaker B: All right. Good morning. [00:15:36] Speaker C: I know the voice, but I can't make out who is the individual. You have a guest this morning, Mr. [00:15:40] Speaker B: Hamil Smith, senior counselor. [00:15:42] Speaker C: Oh, Mr. Hamil Smith, it's so good to hear you on the program, man. [00:15:46] Speaker B: Yes, he's on with us this morning. [00:15:48] Speaker C: Right, okay. You know, although I changed my interview, I want to say something to you and I want to. I want to let you know this, okay? The government of this country is neglecting the country by, number one, not ensuring that everyone pay their proper taxes. If the taxes were paid properly, we can take that money and we can use it into social development, human resource development, community development, ensuring that we build better communities, access to education for all. All these kind of things we could do. But that money that we are losing every year. The Last estimate was $26 billion. We only collected 60% of all. All collectible revenue. How could we run a country like that? And why is the government husband. In this position that they don't want a cpra? [00:16:42] Speaker B: Hold on. Will you get this. This figure that we lose in 26. [00:16:46] Speaker C: Billion a year, Mr. Rowley. Said figures made available to him in 2019. He said that. That we are only collecting 60% of all collectible revenue. [00:16:55] Speaker B: And because we talking, we talking Zo's. [00:16:58] Speaker C: This morning, the pros and cons, we're talking social intervention. How could you do social intervention without money? Mr. Elmer Smith knows that also too. So I'm Saying to you, Mr. Hammersmith, the state needs to fix tax collection. They need to fix the broken police service, which has been broken since Pastor Dutton did a commission of inquiry way back in 1991. They need to fix the custom services where guns are coming in. We are paying public servants and they're allowing guns to come to our port. We need to fix these things before we could move to Rosalind. And I'm saying to you that ZOZO was poorly planned and it would have meant a destruction of these communities rather than an upliftment. So I'll listen to your comments. [00:17:44] Speaker B: Okay, Mr. Hammersmith. [00:17:46] Speaker A: Yeah, so, I mean, there is, there is tax leakage. It hasn't started today over, you know, really the fact is that over 50 years, over independence period, we have not been as good as we ought to be in terms of tax collection. And yes, the caller is pointing to the fact that guns are coming in. Customs or Border patrol, border control must be involved in it. And that is a target. That doesn't mean, on the other hand, that if you have crime at your doorstep, you're going to turn a blind eye to it. And I think that that was something you needed to get under control. But there are things that certainly I have recommended our Firearms Act. I mean, I'm sure you hear, you see from time to time the police come out and they display huge amounts of ammunition and guns that really belong to our warfare and not, you know, in, not in Trinidad and Tobago. [00:18:57] Speaker B: All right, take a listen to this. [00:18:58] Speaker C: Nobody attaches. [00:19:00] Speaker A: There's nobody, you know, in possession of these items. And that's a, that's a crazy notion. [00:19:06] Speaker B: All right, take a listen to this. Morning, Davy. Morning, Mr. Hannel Smith here. The major problem with solving crime is in Trinidad and Tobago is anytime you hold any of these young black men, and these are the men turning up in videos in court and in prison and in Remaniard. Anytime you hold one of them, somebody says white collar crime. These fellas are not the generators of what we are seeing. They are just the executors. And it's other races doing other things and other communities. And if you read Laventille, you should read West Moorings. And if you read one part of Pinal where the Africans live. You need to read dobassa trees where Mr. Dorbasa lives. And they always, you see Mr. Hammersmith, what I don't like and I can't seem to shake it is why are we playing the race card with zosis? Why do people believe that it would have been a racially motivated distribution, for want of a better term, in terms of where these do are called, are claimed the parameters, the communities. Why do we play the race card? Why is the country feeling that way? [00:20:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree with you that there are multi dimensional problems that Trinidad and Tobago has. But one of those that impact on the security of people and one of the Prime Minister requirements of any government is to allow people to feel safe and secure. And if you don't do that then you, you miss the boat. I mean we, we had that, you know, conversation over the last 10 years where you know, the Minister of National Security says that's not my job but it is, it is the most key because nothing else happens unless safety and security is in place. [00:21:02] Speaker B: Should we weed out the corrupt elements within the police service before we roll out something like zosis? Attempts be made to constitutionally reform the TTPS in terms of getting. [00:21:15] Speaker A: That's a long term exercise. But yes, you need to do that certainly in terms of who you have, who are you going to use to target under zosu? What policemen and officers are going to be involved. I mentioned that there is a provision for training but you need to hand pick those people and you have to ensure that you don't have the criminal element seeking to supervise criminals. So you are right about that. But we can't wait until we get the whole police service right. There are good components I'm sure within the police force and the Commissioner Police would have a good idea as to how to hand pick his people in order to have the best. [00:22:07] Speaker B: When we look at the model, when we look at the now we talk about the pros, what are some of the cons if you can re highlight them. If we did and we missed it, if this Zozo bill had passed and was allowed to roll out whether somebody. We spoke about the pros, but let's talk a little bit about the cons. [00:22:26] Speaker A: All right. So I would have liked to have seen rather than a sunset, a sunlight clause. In other words, what you want to do is to throw sunlight on the operations, let's say after six months to see where we could approve the legislation. Where is it ranking? I would have also liked to have seen monthly bulletins being put out as to how communities are improving. Because at the end of the day this isn't just attacking the, the criminals. This is trying to improve your society as a whole and you would want to uplift these communities. And those are reports that I would have liked to have seen come out in a monthly basis. I think perhaps there was too much discretion given to the Prime Minister in terms of determining these spots and that may be where you start to get this spillover in terms of race. And you know, perhaps if you had thought it out, if the government had thought it out, they would have recognized that perhaps people would have easily sort of moved in that direction of race. Whereas if she had put the Commissioner of Police and the Chief of Defence Staff being the, the ones who make the recommendation which then the government, the Prime Minister takes up, I, I think we would have dampened, if you like the concern about race. And that's something you have to take into account in a, in a society like ours. [00:24:06] Speaker B: And I mean going forward now, the, the, the AG was stressing on the urgency to get this bill done so we'd have something in place now that we don't. Before I go to that question, let's take this call quickly. Good morning. Good morning. All right. 625-2257 and 6273223. Give me that call back. They mentioned that there was nothing in place now that the SOE is gone. We didn't get the Zoso bill passed. What is happening now? What next? [00:24:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:24:40] Speaker B: Where should the Prime Minister turn? [00:24:42] Speaker A: Yeah. So you do have talk about the potential having another state of emergency. [00:24:48] Speaker B: She warned them and that had has. [00:24:51] Speaker A: To be on the basis as per the constitution if something has arisen which gives you leads to the conclusion and the President is satisfied that there is need for the introduction of a state of emergency. Frankly, if that's the way we have to go down the road, I think we were far better off with Zosu. [00:25:20] Speaker B: The But interesting. [00:25:21] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:25:21] Speaker A: I would like to see the government come back again with a bill now they have time to introduce perhaps some checks and balances in the Zoso bill that would recognize and uplift in the communities whilst targeting the criminal elements. Balance correct. [00:25:45] Speaker B: All right. Hello, Good Morning. [00:25:46] Speaker C: Good morning, Mr. Hammersman. Morning. I don't think ZOZO would make any sense. You know, Mr. Hammersmith, there is just upgraded communities. Let me make this point as you outline. I think I heard you because I was doing something else while trying to listen to you that there is a. It's a small section of the Population of the community of each community. And I would like to know which community are we referring to? Because let me draw example for you. A man leave let's call one of these communities lav until angle Shagonas and put on a robbery that doesn't make love until the hot spot that makes Shaguanas the hot spot. Because the crime is committed in Shaguanas. So where are you going to lock down. So if you lock down live until looking for diamond, that means you have the information. And if you have the information you don't have to lock down my entire community as we just outlined to hold 1% of the population because if it's the same mini SOE as some people trying to justify it as well. We just came out of an SOE a few days ago and how many people were locked up and how many were charged actually brought before the court? Not much really to tell me that. I can't remember how much they said charge. But I wait to see when they reach before the court what is the outcome and I wait to see the repercussions of these people. Especially the lady okay was released. I wait to see what lawyers picking up that matter because we've been through this already. The state paid awesome sums under your administration when you was in office after via the same attorney general that is now or the state Attorney general take the same state after locking up the same people to court. And when this matter we are playing with the citizens. Mr. Hamilton Smith, enjoy your morning. [00:27:47] Speaker B: Thank you so much. Hello. Good morning. All right, six to five. [00:27:52] Speaker A: I was saying, you know, one of my key points is that we need micro targeting as opposed to entire communities and perhaps that might address what the caller's concern is so far. [00:28:06] Speaker B: Were you all aware as to whether or not there would have been a committee for the Prime Minister to liaise with in order before she can declare a zone of special operation? Any one community. [00:28:19] Speaker A: What it talks about is a recommend that it would be in consultation with the commissioner and the Chief of Defense. That's what the bill says. I'm just saying, you know, and of course we have seen this turn out in reality. I would like to see a micro targeting. You know, the police have to have their heir to the grounds. That's what, you know, policing really entails. [00:28:51] Speaker B: All right, let's take another call quickly. Good morning. [00:28:54] Speaker C: Good morning, Mr. Morgan. Good morning to Mr. Hamilton. [00:28:56] Speaker B: Good morning to you, sir. [00:28:57] Speaker C: I. I want to ask the ugly attorney who would have been a past lawmaker, what is preventing the ttps from using the Current legislations that we have, we have a number of legislations that you are part of the legislative process in passing laws. What is preventing such? And number two, do we need a special committee in Azoto to tell us what the community needs in terms of some of the social ills of fixing them? I don't think so. So the question that we have to ask here is how do we, how does the TTCs utilize the legislation that it has? How does it bridge the gap between community policing, meaning that the people in the community, in partnership with the ttps, will be able to apprehend individuals while also using the different agencies that we have to carry out social programs. And I don't know that I have to give up my constitutional rights 4 and 5 to do so. Listen, I would like to hear the attorney because you see, when we are in office we have answers, but when we are out we don't. And I think that's the problem that we have here. [00:30:14] Speaker B: Okay, Mr. Hammersmith. [00:30:16] Speaker A: Yeah. So the caller said, you know, why can't we right now with current laws have the police do the job that they're being paid to do? That makes sense from one perspective, but the reality is since you know, what, 30 years and now has passed and nothing has happened, surely you need a new intervention. And I, I think this also was the kind of intervention that could have been a game changer because you don't want something static remaining forever. That's right, you have a game changer. And I don't think, you know, doing the same thing over and over again that we've done for the last 30 years would constitute a game changer. [00:31:05] Speaker B: With that being said, good morning. [00:31:09] Speaker C: Morning. Again, due respect to you, that don't make no sense to me. You know Mr. Hamilton, I heard a minister, junior minister, Mr. Philip Alexander argument and arguably I'm making a point and, and this Africa. I'm not saying what he's saying, it's true, but it happens in certain communities. I'm pointing out something to you and you as you outlined 30 years ago, we have the same problem. I'm going to point you where it started and where we are today. He in the parliament said to argument on his Ozo bill said to us hey, you know, in certain he called out the prime, the former former prime minister in Rowley's constituency and other point out, well I'm talking to myself that Rowley is not prime minister, is not in charge of any constituency anymore. So he called out Diego Martin all these spots and say, you know, in westmorin and all these places that the former former Prime Minister controlled that in those communities at half past five on an evening people have to lock up the house. They that man saying that in the Parliament trying to justify the Zozo bill at 5 to 3 on afternoons Tanti have to lock up she house and granny had to lock up and go inside. And when Tanti called the police Tanti have a problem because the bandits get to know that Tanti called. So if a parliamentary man is in Parliament trying to argue the bill and telling us that then our problem Mr. Hammersmith is not the bandit. Our problem Mr. Hammond Smith is the police service. Mr. Because we had several men became large drug dealers in Trinidad and Tobago and we have a corrupted police service from the head. So from then if you think from the commissioner police then to know all these fellow got handed down you think this police service change. We had an incident just the other day. We have a present national security minister they gave him a fancy name telling us the way body comes. So we can't put the trust in the police for them to wear body car the way the body comes. We're going to have a little trust in the police. So we ain't got to say what Philip say in parliament when you, when you call them Tantian problem. That is our problem Mr. Hyman Smith for 30 years lack trust in the police service and it has been going down worse and worse just a few days ago. That is why Davy you use your, your program this morning. So the commissioner police resigned Every PNM was in office that have been calling Hines must go Heinz must go Heinz is a murderer. Same thing they did with the Coast Guard cause that shoot at the child. The child and they say federal Hines is a murderer all on a sudden Alexander is not a murderer. Mr. Hamil Smith. The truth is a hard thing to swallow in TNT. Enjoy your morning. [00:34:21] Speaker B: Mr. Hamilton. [00:34:22] Speaker A: Obviously our police service needs a lot. You know the detection rate is abysmally poor. I mean and, and you know, yes there's a lot of work to be done because the police service really reflects our society here. They're good policemen and there will be those who perhaps are involved in crime. What the call is alluding to is that police people within the police force are leaking information to criminals and very disheartening. But, and I do no doubt it's true in some respects. But that doesn't, that doesn't change the issue about you know getting crime under control. One has to admit for instance during the last six months of the state Emergency murders went down significantly by 40% or whatever. I mean, that, that's a huge gap. If we could have that happening overall, not only. Yes, you know, throughout, as a matter of course. And presumably that would get better. The more you, you actually target the criminals, the gangs, keep the murder under control, the better and better it will get that that was Jamaica's experience where today Jamaica is flourishing, unfortunately ahead of a setback in terms of the recent hurricane. But they have been flourishing because they've become disciplined. And sometimes, sometimes you have to reach rock bottom before you could start to climb up, because people don't see the light of day until their backs are against the wall. And we need frankly, not to wait for that moment, but to have the interventions that we need right now. It's not just in crime. [00:36:28] Speaker B: Yes. [00:36:29] Speaker A: You know, I think some of the callers are alluding to the fact that you have corruption throughout the country. And I have recommended we have a serious fraud office where you get an independent prosecutor, special prosecutor and forensic investigators. [00:36:49] Speaker B: Yes. [00:36:49] Speaker A: You know, there are those arms that we need to pursue in addition to getting crime, murders under control. [00:36:58] Speaker B: I want to thank you very much. We out of time. I want to thank you for coming on this morning and sharing some insight with these OSOs and what it means in terms of the pros and cons. And thank the callers for being respectful in calling and sharing their thoughts as well. I had a final thought this morning, but it has eluded me in terms of what with the, the, oh, right, here is a quick question. Can we look, or could it be said now that these persons were released without any charges being brought to them? Can we see an absurd in lawsuits being levied against the, the police or, or the government? [00:37:34] Speaker C: Right. [00:37:34] Speaker A: I, I, I don't know the answer to the question. I think we'll have to wait and see what transpires and I really wouldn't be in a position to predict. I think one caller says, in past states of emergency, that happened and maybe it will happen again. More reason why I prefer the ZOSO approach. You had a right of judicial review. You had a right to go. The courts were still both in. Magistrates and a high court were accessible during this process. And therefore, in that regard, the ZOSO was far better than a state of emergency. You shouldn't have that happening, you know, once you brought in Zosu. I'm not saying he didn't need modification. I'm not saying it couldn't be improved. You don't get it right the first time around sometimes. And One hopes that the government take a step back, rethink the issue and come back with another ZOZO bill. I would like to see micro targeting. I would like to see, you know, provisions showing the improvement in the society, in the communities that are involved. I would like to see the bulletins, the publications being made so people get a sense of confidence. That's what we're lacking today. We're just feeling dismal and down because we feel that we are on a treadmill into hell and we have to change the trajectory and so was an opportunity properly done could raise, if you like, the confidence of. There are many other things that we have to do, but at that level where crime does is a suppressant, if you like, of development and you need to get that under control. [00:39:33] Speaker B: Mr. Hamlet Smith, senior Council, thank you so much for chatting with us. Let us do this again in the not too distant future as we see what government plans as their plan unveils in coming weeks and months to follow through on promises made in terms of protecting citizens and perhaps another state of emergency, hopefully, as you rightfully say, maybe revisit Zo now, you said he had 72 hours and it wasn't enough time. Now that the bill has been defeated, you have all the time in the world to sit with the stakeholders, the independents, the opposition, see what is 106amendments, look at them and see if it is making any sense, what common ground you can come to and revisit it. Thank you again, Minister. [00:40:13] Speaker A: Thank you for having me, Davy. I'm glad to be on freedom. [00:40:17] Speaker B: Thank you so much. It was back again. Yes, indeed. [00:40:20] Speaker A: So you're tuned into the all new freedom 106.51 6.5.