Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new talk radio freedom 106.5. Ms. Tubas, good morning to you. What did you make? What do you make from this?
[00:00:11] Speaker B: Good morning.
So he did say, because I heard the audio as well, the Tripartite is with ExxonMobil, ExxonMobil Chrome, LNG, LNG and the government.
Right, which is Guyana's government.
[00:00:30] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: So he said in that if we would like to be part of those discussions then Ghana is open to that.
But other than that there's no gas, there's no gas stocks there because there's no gas to share at that point. But in this gas project that they are currently working on, if it is that, well as Exxon and Falcom wants to engage Trinidad with it, well then we could have a conversation. But he's still open to meeting with the energy minister, Dr. Mudal Munilal. I spoke to him yesterday, Dr. Rudal Munilal and his response was that he is still open to conversation with the Ghana government. He said he took note of the statement that he made but he's still willing to meet with them for possible future arrangements.
His exact quotes were certainly Jagdeo's invitation to have discussions on any role for TNT will be considered in the interest of the people of Guyana and this country.
The role of the private sector arrangements in that context is noted for short term consultations.
I can confirm that. I already dispatched in my first week on the job correspondence to my counterpart in Guyana on our eagerness to discuss bilateral cooperation on all energy related matters.
So that was the Energy Minister's response to Dr. Jagdale's statements.
[00:02:24] Speaker A: Now the thing about it is this. I mean we heard what the Vice President of Guyana had to say.
But Minister Rudal Munilal, do you think that he's far reaching or it's a bit far fetched because Guyana says we have no gas to share right now we are to sustain our own people first. That's basically what it boils down to, right? We're looking at Brazil and that part of the clip was missing. But I have the full import of it and talks. You all could talk but as far as we are concerned it's not even our decision. So how fruitful is it for us as a nation to continue to engage in conversation with the Guyanese government if there is no plans or no gas deals that could be had at this time?
[00:03:16] Speaker B: Well, in Dr. Jagdeo's statement too he said the government of Ghana, ExxonMobil and Fulcrum.
[00:03:30] Speaker A: Fulcrum, yeah.
[00:03:30] Speaker B: They would have to examine whether taking the gas to TNT outweighs those other options in terms of financial fees.
That was one of his quotes as well.
So is it that when he goes up, this is Dr. Munilal, is it that that is the kind of discussion that they're going to have or is it that he's going to say, well, yeah, we really don't have the gas to supply.
Remember, it is a kind of partnership we are looking for as well too.
Because there was talks when I researched Dr. Jack Dio saying that they were looking at doing stuff with Trinidad in terms of getting gas hair to liquefy. So he was looking to have conversations with us. And this was way before the elections. But now things are, well, maybe, maybe.
[00:04:36] Speaker A: Maybe he would have spoken thinking that it was plausible. And now that when ExxonMobil and Falcrum and these people get further into the development of the field or even the investigation into it and their findings, their research findings, it probably now painting a different picture as to how much the reserves have, how long it will take to get to those reserves. Because from what I am looking at, from a layman's perspective, I mean you're a business, what cnc, three senior reporters. So you have a little more insight. It relates to the fact that at the moment I think it will be better for us to look elsewhere to see how we can get gas deals done and along the journey of solidifying other deals. We still engage in talks in Guyana.
I don't know if Minister Munilal spoke with you on anything about external deals in other areas or is it that we are just solely at the moment focus on Guyana?
[00:05:31] Speaker B: No, the Prime Minister, Pamela Precessor instructed him to meet with both.
Well, three, it was Guyana, Suriname and Grenada.
I, in my story yesterday, I spoke with, well, he responded to my questions because he was in the US having discussions with other Caribbean counterparts. This is Prime Minister of Grenada Dickon Mitchell and he told me that his government is looking forward to having cooperation with us in terms of the nutmeg field. Now, the Nutmeg field in 2018, between 2017 and 2018, they did do some work there, but they did not find any gas.
So they're going to have further discussions on it and to see what else could be explored off Grenada waters as well.
So he said that he was very eager to meet with our energy minister to explore the hydrocarbon development.
[00:06:56] Speaker A: You see, the thing about it is with the nutmeg field, I did speak with some Other energy personnel like I think it was former minister, was it Karen, one of them I spoke to last week or week before and they did mention that that field, that nutmeg field, it's still in its premature stages and it will take a while for maturity. So the thing about it is, as I always say, according to the man on the ground, while the grass is growing, the cow is starving. All right. So that's why I wondered what other. I mean pursuing Grenada at this time. It's all well and good. Having those talks with the prime minister and the government of Grenada sounds really plausible. It sounds fruitful. But that's futuristic. That is not in the immediate future.
So I mean looking at Suriname, which is even further afield from Guyana, one has to ask how feasible is it for us to get infrastructure in place to pipe that gas or whatever reserves down to Trinidad and Tobago's refineries one and two. Would it? If we go as the crow flies, Ms. Obers, we would have to be passing through Venezuelan waters and I think no way is Maduro going to give us any and he's going to probably, if he does give us permission and access, we're going to have to pay hefty fines because of that Dragon Gas deal that is now scrapped. Your thoughts?
[00:08:15] Speaker B: Yes, I think I agree as well.
In my story yesterday, energy minister and energy experts Carolyn Sipasab Beatram, she did express about the.
[00:08:28] Speaker A: Yes, I'm cutting you, but it was Carolyn, it was Carolyn I spoke to. Yes, you're correct. Go ahead.
[00:08:32] Speaker B: Yes, yes. And she said that this situation with the nutmeg cannot be viewed as a near term solution to TNT's gas supply shortfall. She said we have to look at other means.
She was suggesting that in Suriname, right.
They have their blocks 52 and 58. She said that is under appraisal but when she looks at it, the earliest production is expected by 2031.
So she and all gave some, you know, some insights into. We need some more look at our deep water because she says that we have, we have stuff here that we could look at for the short term instead of going out to Ghana, Suriname and Grenada. Because we need, we need the gas now.
You know, we can't wait till 2031 or 2030 for, for gas. We. Because our revenue is falling short and we need something to sustain it especially with all these expenses that we would have to be paying out as well.
[00:09:55] Speaker A: But that being said, I don't know if you plan to talk to Minister Munilal in the near future, but were you able to get any, any word in with him as it relates to pursuing our own fields here, the Calypso field, I think the Coquina Manatee fields and these fields. Did he speak our own deep water exploration in Trinidad, did he speak to anything on that? Or is it. Is the. Based on what you would have gathered from speaking with him is the only consensus right now and directive alone is just to pursue these two countries which we are now hearing is futuristic in the interim, did you hear any talks, did he allude to any conversation with you giving any insight that we would look a little closer to home in the short term for the short term benefit of our country in terms of our, you know, our forex. Because once we could get the gas here, we can then export it out and that will generate forex. But did he speak to anything about exploring gas around us in Trinidad and Tobago?
[00:10:54] Speaker B: No, we did not touch on that. But when we spoke for the first time last week, Thursday.
Yes.
He said that he was meeting with the CEOs of the energy State Boards, along with the private energy companies such as BP and Shell and Woodside and those companies to have a talk about the energy sector and how is it looking The Coquina and the Mannequin feel we're supposed to be getting something from it.
I'm.
If I'm not mistaken, it's 2027.
So we're hoping that, that, that that comes to fruition in 2027. But BP and Shell said that it.
[00:11:51] Speaker A: Looks very hopeful also when he spoke to them. We are getting some indicators that. So then could we, could we safely allude that the fact that the Primus administration, when they told US that, that 2027 was when we could see something. Is that the consensus of Dr. Munila at this time? Is he.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: No, Dr. Munila didn't say that. This is what, this is what the energy company said.
[00:12:14] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:12:14] Speaker B: The energy company just told me that he had. Yes, he just told me that he was expected to have talks with them. Okay, okay, but I remember. Yes, but BP and BP just, just about a month or so, right. They sent out, they sent out a release to the media stating that the Coquina and mannequin, when the OFAC license was revoked by the U.S. they kind of gave us hope that 2027 we could kind of look forward to for these fields. All right.
[00:12:46] Speaker A: Now, with that being said, I don't know if. Are you aware of any other initiatives now? We looked at when Mrs. Kamala Passant Bisesa would have won governance of this country in April 28th. I think hours later the next or so Secretary of State Mark Rubio would have sent congratulations, a congratulatory note or letter or whatever it formed through socials, Facebook, whatever congratulating Trinidad and tobago on its Mrs. Kamala Psabi says on her ascension to prime ministerialship in this country. He said that her thoughts aligned with that of the US did Dr. Munilal or are you aware of any furtherance in talks that this present administration is planning to engage with the US as it relates to the energy sector?
[00:13:34] Speaker B: No, he has not come out fully and spoken about that because I think because the prime minister would have spoken about her conversations with US review. I didn't think that he wanted to misspeak, you know, out of that. So we did not have conversations on that. My focus at the time was really on what is he going to do when he meets with the kind of discussions he's going to have with the different talking heads in Grenada, Ghana and Suriname.
So I don't know if probably later this week we will have a conversation on what are their plans, what is this country plans with the US when it comes to the energy sector.
[00:14:30] Speaker A: And that's a good thing. My next question to you would have been to ask what time frame did Dr. Munilal indicated that he would be getting engaging in these conversations because Dr. Jagdeo and they have responded very, very quickly in denying any deals with us at this time. So I was wondering if you got any insight as the duration, the time lapse in terms of getting to these talks as quickly as possible. Are there plans in the near future or is this something that, you know, it's only, it's on the, on the dockets to deal with but we're not going to reach there. Did he give a time frame?
[00:15:03] Speaker B: No, he, he actually said that he was waiting on correspondence from prenatal Guyana and Suriname as to when the talks could be beheaded. So he said it was all up to them. So he, he is ready to hold the talks. So I guess if Prime Minister Dickon Mitchell, I don't know when he's coming back into, well, to Grenada. It sounded like it was sometime this weekend, last weekend that he would have come back soon.
Let's see if he will reach out to him. But he said that he was happy to hold the talks with Dr. Munilal very soon.
[00:15:50] Speaker A: Well, I'm happy to hear that.
[00:15:51] Speaker B: It sounds like it's either this week or it could be next week.
[00:15:54] Speaker A: According to one, when I spoke with Caroline Sipasad Beach. And she would have indicated that these deals that we are now having and talks that we are having now with these various new explorations, these are futuristic deals. She said it takes years before these things bear fruit. And when you see government coming to power and they seeing these things happen, it would have been on the drawing board or on the docket years prior. So I'm happy that these talks are happening. But he says he's waiting on correspondence. But did we reach out to them as a nation to say that we are interested in holding talks? Did Dr. Molilal reached out, send out correspondence and now waiting on feedback, or is it that we have these conversations in the public domain? So he's hoping that they respond.
[00:16:35] Speaker B: I know for sure that he has because in my story today he said that he did dispatch correspondence to his Guyana counterpart to hold discussions on the energy related matters. So I know for Guyana for sure, I am not sure about Grenada because he said that he was going to reach out to them.
[00:16:56] Speaker A: All right.
[00:16:57] Speaker B: But because my story today really focused on Diana, he did not really touch on Grenada.
[00:17:03] Speaker A: All right. Hello.
[00:17:04] Speaker C: Good morning.
[00:17:05] Speaker A: Good morning.
[00:17:05] Speaker C: Right. And that's a good point for me to jump in.
What Stuart Young said with respect to Grenada is that a Russian company was given the opportunity in order to prove the gas in Grenada. They drilled one point and it came up, well, unsuccessful. They had to tap it and they left it.
But the first thing we need to do is to prove the gas on the sea in the Grenada waters. Then we will be able to do a feasibility study as to whether it's possible to build a line from Grenada to our line or nearest line and then have that be pumped to Trinidad and be monetized so that all the nations can benefit. So at the end of the day, these are long term things.
Long term in relation to the whole Dragon and Manico cooking and all of those, we still have an opportunity because one of those gas seal up there is also a cross border fee just like it is with Manatee and with Humanity field. Right. And we still have an opportunity there to get into that area and get some gas for Trinidad and Tobago. Because our need for gas is immediate.
It is not a long term.
And we know the feasibility of bringing gas from Guyana. Well, the Guyana president virtually killed. It is virtually totally out of the way. They perhaps want to build their own point Lisa situated fertilizer plant and all of that. And they're right. But at the end of the day, those initiatives started by Dr. Rowley and Stot Young ought to be pursued in the interest of the people of Trinidad and Tobago.
So somebody's going to have to go to Caracas and somebody going to have to smooth out business with Washington because at the end of the day, Washington and Caracas will determine whether or not we get the gas in Dragon and its associated field and listen to your comments.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: Thank you.
So what Dakola is saying is that we still have to.
We still have to look at the Dragon gas. But when you spoke with Dr. Munilal within recent times, are you getting any consensus at all on the ground or behind the scenes that this administration is hoping to reopen talks with the Venezuelan authorities?
[00:19:30] Speaker B: No, no, no.
No such indication.
And you see, if it is, that the prime Minister is holding talks with the US Secretary Rubio, that Dragon gas, and she rightly said, what she said during the swearing in, is that dragong gas is dead.
So if it is that we are holding, we are going to be holding talks with US Secretary Rubio, then we wouldn't be able to revisit the Dragon Gas because that was one of the stipulations as to if we are doing business with you, you. You can't do any business with Venezuela.
[00:20:19] Speaker A: So it's safe to say that the Dragon deal at the moment under this administration has died.
[00:20:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And she said it. She said, Dragon gas is dead.
She said it more than once.
[00:20:35] Speaker A: That's a done deal. That's over and to not be looked at. Now, as we continue with our conversations this morning, we invite one or two calls. Let me see if there's a couple messages that I want to clear quickly with you before you go because I know you're a very, very busy lady.
One of the text messages, I think what no one is saying is that the state of TNT's economy and finances are catastrophic.
Somebody says, why is your guest referring to hpm?
Oh, hpm.
[00:21:05] Speaker B: Hpm.
[00:21:06] Speaker A: What is hbm?
[00:21:08] Speaker B: I don't know.
[00:21:09] Speaker A: I don't know.
It is funny how Eric can come to the conclusion that Guyana oil deal is dead, but the Dragon Gas deal is alive, irrespective of the fact that the US had no deals with Venezuela or the honorable Prime Minister, he shortened.
[00:21:27] Speaker B: Oh, okay.
[00:21:29] Speaker A: All right.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:21:30] Speaker A: Okay. We would not refer to her as she. We would say the honorable Prime Minister. Madam Prime Minister.
[00:21:35] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:21:36] Speaker A: Thank you very much. Somebody's now saying, had the PNM government acted prudently by not shutting down Petrotrend, we wouldn't have been in this tragedy. The government, to further compound the problem, they shut down Petrotrend with no sustainable alternative plan for alternative revenue.
My final thought to you on this, I mean you have been a senior reporter for years going through the different administrations challenges that this country would have seen. Do you in your years of experience see that it was a harsh, rushed decision to close Petrotren or do you think based on your reporting talking to these various individuals that we could have sustained it a bit restructured? What are your thoughts?
[00:22:26] Speaker B: Well, yeah, so I've covered this extensively and from talking with different energy experts and even people from, well, executives from the former petrochem what they were saying too is that you know, it should have been restructured and restructuring instead of closing it down entirely. That is the time. Because at that time ExxonMobil is, that's when they moved into Guyana and things were looking positive for Ghana in terms of their gas supply and that kind of thing. So they were saying that we could have had discussions with Ghana then for us to process their gas through the refinery and that would have been a win win situation for both countries.
That was not done. The then administration said that they spent billions of taxpayers money trying to keep Petrochin afloat. But what one of the executives said is that with Petrochin it was overstaffed.
So that was the issue. And what they needed to do is start to cut so that you could have saved the refinery. And there were some of the projects that they went into that did not make sense which made them lose further and that caused issues with Petrochin and sustaining it.
So now talking to the different bidders who would have bid for the reopening of the refinery, they're saying to restart the refinery now it's between 800 million US to 1 billion US.
That's a lot.
[00:24:18] Speaker A: That's a lot.
[00:24:19] Speaker B: And they're saying yes. And they're saying, they're just saying that they have not seen the refinery as yet. Like go and actually explore, do a tour say because it's been closed for so long, there's so many things that will be need needed to change. I also spoke to Dr. Munilal about that and he said in the next 90 days he will, he is having conversation with Owtu who was actually supposed to be given the refinery but then things went awry.
That's the patriotic, I'm trying to remember what is the, the name of their company that they were going under. Owt. That is. So he said they're going to have conversations, he's going to have conversations with them. And when I asked him is the government going to be putting money to help with OWTU to reopen the refinery. He said some sort of finances will have to be given to them. But they will be running the refinery.
[00:25:26] Speaker A: Because I'm wondering how they could sustain this thing. We're looking at billions, close to a billion dollars USD to open this thing. And again that is a trajectory or a prediction made by investors or potential investors not having looked at the refinery. Now every year the refinery stays down, dormant.
It is decreasing in its ability to perform. It's like driving a car. People believe that when you buy a vehicle the seller is telling you boy that car is hardly driving or that kind of park up there. Nobody will drive the car. That car is a good kite. Park up and it's safe. You know, it will be on the road and the feel is the best buy. And when you buy the car and you start driving it or the engine Monk burst this rubber burst this because it's where it's dry rot. It's just dormant. The modica is moving is the better the buy would be for you. So yes, it park up. It's in a nice. It cover down on that shed. It's not getting due.
The paint is not fading and all these things but the durability of the engine not moving, the oil just remaining there. Nobody in starting the car. And when you start it, yeah, it's song in nice. And you believe that's a best buy. That is exactly what is happening with refinery now. What if when they go in there they realize. Listen, from the onset it looked like between 800 million to a billion USD but this is actually $2.6 billion to get it up and running.
No inspections. Did Dr. Munilal talk about any, any inspections of the refinery within the near future to really get the in real time what it will take to get this back up and running financially?
[00:26:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
When I asked him if he was going to tour the refinery he said that's, that's, that's in his, his book to do a show.
[00:27:07] Speaker A: And the company, well I, I would imagine he should have. And the company is patriotic energies and technologies.
[00:27:13] Speaker B: Patriotic.
[00:27:14] Speaker A: Patriotic energies.
[00:27:15] Speaker B: I know it was patriotic, but I couldn't remember the rest. Yeah.
[00:27:18] Speaker A: Hello, good morning.
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