WHO GUARDING THE GUARDS

[00:00:00] Speaker A: The best insight, instant feedback, accountability. The all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5. [00:00:08] Speaker B: In studio with me is the General Secretary of the Prisons Association, Lester Logie. Good morning to you, sir. [00:00:15] Speaker A: Good morning, Mr. Murray. And good morning to the listeners of Rumble. [00:00:20] Speaker B: Mm. Good morning to you present president Jared Gordon as well. I know wherever you are, you always locked in. He's a very good friend of mine. We became good friends over the time of me interviewing him and we getting into some serious conversations. So I want to say good morning to the president. Sure, Lester, if I could call you Lester. Sure, Lester. Were you talking about here, pal? What is going on? [00:00:46] Speaker A: Well, this Act 25 of 2019 was amended under the. Well, the PNM administration. The association was part of that amendment. What you will see certain things that books and things are lumped in with dangerous drugs and explosives as prohibited items. The reason for that being we have the best dogs in the Caribbean. And to train the dogs, you must have dangerous drugs. So they need to be familiar with cocaine and what have you, even firearms and explosives. [00:01:35] Speaker B: They must. Yeah. They gotta use this to train, to sniff this and correct. Perfect. [00:01:39] Speaker A: So in the drafting they would have. That was one of the issues they were having. Why, how could the commission authorize that? But you needed to authorize it for. [00:01:49] Speaker B: Those things because you must have these animals, they're not us. So if you want them to track a scent, they must be familiar with it so that if they come into the room and they smell it, they know exactly what that means and where to lead you to. [00:02:02] Speaker A: Correct. And they are based at one of our prison facilities. [00:02:06] Speaker B: Right. So I want to ask you to help me to understand this amendment because let's amend something means that something was there before and then he. What was there before and what was amended. So break it up real simple for me for our listeners. What was the. The draft legislation before what the prison commissioner had authority or not authority to do and then what the amendment meant and what he now has just this right? [00:02:36] Speaker A: Well, basically the. The what was there before was the basic things more unauthorized. [00:02:42] Speaker B: Right. [00:02:42] Speaker A: Like the. [00:02:43] Speaker B: So did he have jurisdiction over it to make a decision? [00:02:46] Speaker A: Yes, he had this. [00:02:47] Speaker B: So he could have. He or she that sits at the helm at the prison could have authorized these things. [00:02:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:56] Speaker B: So they were restricted, not prohibited. [00:02:58] Speaker A: Right. Well, they tried. They kind of used the word unauthorized, unprohibited, kind of interchangeably to say, well, he had to authorize the dangerous drugs to come in, but it should not have been lumped in with the cellular phones. The Books, the televisions and things like that. [00:03:19] Speaker B: All right, so let's clear it up now. What is the state now with the prisons? What, what is, is what is prohibited, what is allowed? What is, what is the current condition in which the prison, the Commissioner of Prisons can function with? What, what is his remedy? [00:03:35] Speaker A: Well, basically Act 25 or 2019 still exists. [00:03:38] Speaker B: Right. [00:03:39] Speaker A: And that is the law. [00:03:40] Speaker B: So he, so he can. [00:03:41] Speaker A: But if you look at it, some of the things would have been authorized for inmates and some would be authorized for the use in the prison service for training officers. [00:03:52] Speaker B: For training. [00:03:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:53] Speaker B: And okay, I understand the training part. So we need the firearm, the explosives, we need those things in a very secure location. And the dogs, I would imagine it will be all over the place in all the prison facilities. It's going to be in one location separate from everything. Right. And the dogs are trained there. Okay, I understand that. So they have no choice but to have narcotics and these things controlled and of course, well secured. Let's talk about the authorization of prohibited articles for inmates. What has the commissioner based in your best knowledge? Because what you said there is very startling that the commissioner allowed because it's not blow up tv. It didn't come in in a small box and you blew it up. And it didn't come in in parts come in 65 you're talking about. So let's talk. [00:04:46] Speaker A: Yeah. So the previous commissioner would have authorized several televisions. Right. Before he retired, he visited Port of Spain prison and inmates made requests for television. Once the family willing to purchase the television and drop it to the prison, he allowed it. We had issues. Well, some of the things as we seen now in MSP and well, majority of the prison is hot. It's a concrete jungle, more or less. And yes, the air condition system and it built to work with air condition that has since collapsed. So he allowed fans. Now these inmates have, when you do searches, they will have a paper showing that it is authorized. So they would leave them with it. So if officers go to search MSP and they confiscate a fan, the inmate will pull out his paper and show, look, this was authorized by the Commissioner for me to have this fan. However, to plug in the fan, they have to run an electrical, well, more or less extension cord down the corridor to a source which is to us compromise security. It is a risk to the officer and other inmates if persons take that cord and strangle somebody with it. And we have serious issues with staffing at that prison. So there's no longer any cameras, anything on the various Wings. So if someone does that it might be undetected. You might be able to see who. [00:06:44] Speaker B: Did it because recently we. And you can speak to this. There was an article in the papers where an inmate was found hanging in the cell. [00:06:54] Speaker A: Correct. [00:06:55] Speaker B: I don't know what was used to. [00:06:58] Speaker A: Most likely it would have been based on. [00:07:00] Speaker B: So it is now a cause for concern for me in a real sense because a few months ago that happened. [00:07:06] Speaker A: That happened. [00:07:07] Speaker B: And we. And again no one was held for that. [00:07:09] Speaker A: Correct. And no one was was there to. [00:07:11] Speaker B: Say who did it. Who did it. And it was deemed death by suicide and then it changed to homicide. So what we still don't know the current status. [00:07:21] Speaker A: No, that's still active investigation. [00:07:23] Speaker B: And the family of that prisoner no doubt want answers. [00:07:27] Speaker A: Correct. That's serious issues there. [00:07:31] Speaker B: So when we look I mean the phone lines are blazing. I'll take one call before we continue with our interview this morning. Hello. Good morning. Hello. Hello. All right. They'll probably call back. So the call is coming. Hello. Good morning. Good morning. [00:07:54] Speaker C: Because to me for a pain prison because of his age was not designed for permission that time so that prison is extremely warm. But I don't the prisons demand that's been in charge of the prison. Didn't he have a conversation with the prisons associations because he's there. He was there long before you. He worked his way on the way. He knows that there is no outlet in the cell to plug in. So giving a man a Thursday television text navy doesn't make no sense. [00:08:37] Speaker B: All right. [00:08:40] Speaker C: You know one more thing, David. Why did it take so long for the association mouth out to send it and was upset with the past prison commissioner. Enjoy it. [00:08:49] Speaker B: Well, in the defense of that I've been speaking with the former president of the prisons association on a very regular basis and he continues to provide me with intel and information on a daily basis. I must say good morning to you Rajkumar. He continues to reach out to me. And the thing is when he reaches out he's not telling me something that he can't back up. As a matter of fact he would have sent me information and articles by our very newspaper that was written some 15 years ago where he was lobbying for certain things. [00:09:26] Speaker A: Right. [00:09:26] Speaker B: So this is to answer the question to that caller. This is not a no thing. [00:09:31] Speaker A: So if he's saying we why we've not raising it. But the past commissioner, we have publicly raised it. [00:09:40] Speaker B: That's my point. There are articles to show. I have it on my numerous articles that the former president of the association sends Me on a daily basis and we talk about. So let's talk a little bit about the television sets. Now. You see, the former commissioner would authorize it. [00:10:00] Speaker A: Right. Now the, the television set, as the caller said in Port of Spain is not, it is in a common area. [00:10:06] Speaker B: That's the point I wanted to get. [00:10:07] Speaker A: Is it Right, it's a common area. There will be a television set in the convicted airing yard. There's a television set in the infirmary. There's a television set in the main prison that he authorized before he retired, proceeded on pre retirement. Right. That, that's what I'm. I am aware of and think they also put a television set before you enter pre retirement into the remand area, Port of Spain Prison. [00:10:35] Speaker B: So it's not a personal set. [00:10:37] Speaker A: No. [00:10:38] Speaker B: So if a family member wanted to drop a television set for a particular inmate, it was used in the common area. [00:10:44] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:44] Speaker B: You could drop it, donate it, Don't. [00:10:47] Speaker A: Right. And we would see in the past NGOs groups that visit the prison, they would have donated television sets in the past. [00:10:58] Speaker B: But how do you all get cable facilities? Because these smart TVs without Internet interface or a cable box or something, you, you can't. It's. It's none and void. Well, unless you plug a DVD player. [00:11:10] Speaker A: What I know they use in Port of Spain Prison in the convicted area, there's a DVD player. That's what they have there. [00:11:17] Speaker B: So. [00:11:18] Speaker A: And they have movies, play movies and what have you like things like that. [00:11:22] Speaker B: So that's a DVD player. What about the other areas in the prison? [00:11:26] Speaker A: Well, I would have seen at Port of Spain inmates with the authorized like tablets. Yes, that was. Well, I don't see it again, but I could recall some years ago I did an I duty at Port of Spain in the, the convicted area. And I was seeing these lights up in the infirmary. I said what all this bright light doing there? So when I called the officer on the phone, he said that there's tablets that they authorized for these inmates. They were used, they were on these tablets. [00:12:10] Speaker B: So, so again, these tablets they require. Well, they can function without an Internet source if they are games downloaded, most likely. [00:12:23] Speaker A: That's how it is. It's it function without. They will control what it. The officer who in charge of it will probably give them it any night and take it back in the morning, on the afternoon and take it back in the morning. [00:12:34] Speaker B: Right. [00:12:34] Speaker A: But whatever games, whatever on it, that is what they would use. [00:12:38] Speaker B: Yeah. There's no Internet for no outside source or nothing. So the TV's the television sets in the other parts of the prison. What are you aware of? I mean I've heard. I've heard that there are certain high profile prisoners, certain high risk prisoners were given leeway more than the regular prisoner. How factual is that? [00:13:01] Speaker A: Well, I cannot confirm that the one that was reported, if that is fact, that it was in a cell as far as I am aware. I did a night duty there before those inmates were placed there several years ago. There weren't any television sets in there. [00:13:19] Speaker B: So when last you took a Tour to Building 13? [00:13:22] Speaker A: I did. I didn't. I went there to meet with the patch officers as within the last year, but I did not go inside where those inmates were. There's a kind of restricted area area. [00:13:35] Speaker B: So, you know. So persons are not allowed to just walk. Other. Other prison officers cannot. [00:13:41] Speaker A: Yes. [00:13:41] Speaker B: Cannot just venture into. [00:13:43] Speaker A: Correct. [00:13:43] Speaker B: So you have to either be assigned. [00:13:45] Speaker A: To building, to Building 13 to go up there. [00:13:48] Speaker B: To be up there. [00:13:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:49] Speaker B: If you're not assigned there, you can't go there. [00:13:51] Speaker A: So I would have been. I would have entered msp, they would have searched me by the gate. Then I went up to Building 13, they would also search me there. And as I entered they have their office where they hold a parade and I would have been on the parade there. To access those inmates I have to go through two other gates, at least two other gates to access where those inmates are. [00:14:18] Speaker B: Seeing that you are subjected to extensive searches. [00:14:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:22] Speaker B: What is the position with senior prison officers traversing in and out of the prisons? [00:14:29] Speaker A: Well, the association have concerns with that over the years since I think was Mr. Roger under the previous UNC government where Mr. Sandy indicated as the Minister that all officers had to be searched. However, that policy was never implemented and to date we have issues with, as we say, things coming in and we suspect it is being driven in. Just within the last year an officer was posted to the gate at Port of Spain Prison and the senior officer, the superintendent came in and the officer searched his vehicle. He didn't like it. Transfer them? Yeah, he transferred him. Put him down in the main prison. As you know, spite. Because that is the most dangerous area where we operate as one of the danger areas. The main prison in Port of Spain. [00:15:28] Speaker B: What is dangerous about the main prison? What happens there? What? [00:15:32] Speaker A: Well, that is where the remanded inmates are. The conditions down here, down there are inhumane. Very inhumane. We have still these slop pails we have. There was a. I think a wing on a one that they didn't have any slop pails. So I will inquire why. Why they didn't have the slop pails and they indicated to me they moved them all because the inmate was. The inmates was trained it on the officers. So they had to defecate in our bag and throw it outside. [00:16:05] Speaker B: Outside where? [00:16:06] Speaker A: In the corridor. For who to pick up the prisoners. [00:16:10] Speaker B: So the prisoners had to come out and pick it up the next morning. [00:16:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Well that is what takes place here. They clean it up every morning. Yeah. [00:16:18] Speaker B: What the. Hello, Good morning. Okay, I'm not hearing you clear. Hello, Good morning. Hello, Good morning. [00:16:31] Speaker C: Good morning, Mr. David, this gentleman, I'd like to ask him a couple questions very quickly please. Did you come any registration with a copy of a new amendment? Did it pass by the President of Trinidad and Tobago? [00:16:44] Speaker A: Yes, you could just Google it. Act 25 of 2019. And you will see the amendments. [00:16:50] Speaker B: It's there. [00:16:50] Speaker A: Yes. Mr. Less provisions by the President. Yes, it was. Okay. All right, well I sent it to. Yes. [00:16:58] Speaker B: Yeah. The. Your filly man. Come here unprepared. Somebody said the large TV was authorized, but was it authorized for to be placed in a cell? That's the next thing too. [00:17:07] Speaker A: Yeah, that is. That is the burning question to be the. The how the Building 13 is designed. When I went up there and when the prisoners were there. The cell is not small. It's more built like a mini dormitory settings which MSP in building 13. [00:17:33] Speaker B: In building 13 it's not a cell. [00:17:35] Speaker A: It's not a small cell like the other prisons. Yeah. It is designed to hold more people. This area is rarely for pre release persons. Persons who serving a sentence. Convicted prisoners who will be released soon. They will put them there to do a course if it's with the last. [00:17:54] Speaker B: Some kind of rehab something 12 to. [00:17:56] Speaker A: Well, they go and learn a trade something. Yeah, something. So Building 13 was not designed for. [00:18:02] Speaker B: That was not designed for Right for high risk. [00:18:05] Speaker A: High risk. [00:18:07] Speaker B: It wasn't high risk remanded in me. So these people mandate right. These people are not convicted as yet, Correct? [00:18:13] Speaker A: They're not. Then what hasn't been found guilty by the courts. They could walk out of jail prison anymore and they could go to court and they say you have no case to answer, you're free to go. [00:18:22] Speaker B: All that could. That could happen at any time. [00:18:23] Speaker A: Any time. They could just be there 10, 15 years. Yes. Wow. [00:18:28] Speaker B: Hello. Good morning. Hello. All right, I see my lines lighting up. Here's the thing I wanted to ask you. Could the dogs not be trained outside of the prison facility? Where? Well, a special area. [00:18:42] Speaker A: I don't want to give. Give, gave it. Give all the location, but they are train at a. A more minimal secure security area. [00:18:53] Speaker B: And I understand, but I mean one text is saying, why train the dogs in there and not take them outside? Daddy Training. Bring them in. Because it will eliminate. [00:19:04] Speaker A: It's not only training. We breed those dogs. They are the best dogs in the Caribbean. And we, we the American Embassy donate things and assist because they see the value in those things. We reload them out, they go and do operations with other agencies, customs or what have you. [00:19:25] Speaker B: But aside from. I mean, I am happy training it off kennels, but I am thinking this. Instead of being in the prisons, a party, a section or whatever, be separate. [00:19:36] Speaker A: We are somewhere else actually separate. If you know where it is, I. [00:19:41] Speaker B: Don'T need to know, but where it. [00:19:42] Speaker A: Is actually away from everything. [00:19:44] Speaker B: From everything. So. Okay, good, good. [00:19:46] Speaker A: Only that in that area. [00:19:47] Speaker B: Right now let's just get back very quickly to the. The, The. The searches with the prison officers. You said the senior man came in and when he came in, the superintendent, he drove in. He. The. The junior officer searched his car. [00:20:02] Speaker A: Yes. [00:20:02] Speaker B: And he didn't like it. Now the thing about it is if the. Could he have stopped the junior officer from doing it or the junior officer. [00:20:08] Speaker A: Had the right to search him based on Prison Rule 234, which is the 1838 West Indian Prison act, that all vehicles and persons entering the prison is to be searched. [00:20:24] Speaker B: They must be searched. [00:20:25] Speaker A: Yes. [00:20:26] Speaker B: So then if that is the case and is a must and not might be, why is it that the senior. The senior superintendents and these big wigs in the prison feel they have the all right authority to not be searched? [00:20:38] Speaker A: Rank. Rank of its privileges. [00:20:40] Speaker B: But, but then that is not a privilege because what, what, what is being described in the act is very clear. So I am calling on the association to find out why are you all not holding the Commissioner of Prisons, the National Security Minister. Well, now we have the Defense Minister and the Homeland Security accountable because you cannot tell me that because of your rank you're above the law. The commissioner himself of police said the no one. No one. If he commits an act of. Of we lock up a police commissioner the other day. [00:21:10] Speaker A: In theory it sounds good. Practical it. Rank have its privilege. [00:21:15] Speaker B: Yes, the privilege of. There's my point in Opal. Doing. [00:21:19] Speaker A: Doing what I want. [00:21:21] Speaker B: I basically wait boy long too. All right, now we talking. Frank and Lehman, I can't understand if an act and a law is categorically clear that this must happen. How your rank. Supersedes what is law and policy? [00:21:38] Speaker A: Well, we security has more or less taken second place. That's what really takes place when you cannot search these senior persons. [00:21:54] Speaker B: Oh, you pardon me, but I is a fellow. Right. I'm a guy that when I. I mean I am listening to what you're saying and it is in stark contradiction to what the commission of police is saying. And the Commissioner of Police is not just speaking on one entity, he's talking across the board. [00:22:12] Speaker A: The Commissioner police has limited jurisdiction in the prison. He has to be invited into the prison. [00:22:18] Speaker B: I ain't had no problem with that. The Police Commissioner no police officer can walk in the prison end, but supposed to. So a police officer can't just come. No, no, I could understand that. [00:22:30] Speaker A: You must get permission to come in. [00:22:33] Speaker B: Here where you're coming for. We are charged with the respons. Right. So we got that. You all fall under the remit of national security. [00:22:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:41] Speaker B: So you all are answerable to the minister, so to speak. Right. The minister kind of oversees or if. [00:22:48] Speaker A: There'S any issue, the head of department really is the Permanent Secretary. [00:22:53] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:53] Speaker A: And that is something that people are not aware of. But they run the more or less they are the ones running the government in the background. [00:23:01] Speaker B: Exactly. We understand that. For real people don't know that. But they do. They do. That's why you don't vote for Permanent Secretary. They have the job and every minister comes had to deal with them. Understood. So my thing is, when did it get so that the Commissioner of Prisons, past and present being given these bylaws, these laws, these book with principles and policies decides upon themselves. Well here we're going on, we not doing that. So who the. The President? Nah. Why is. No, no, no. How did it reach there? [00:23:37] Speaker A: To be fair, if. If we go back to colonial times, we had a commissioner prison named Captain Monroe. This is something we inherit from colonial times. He used to do what you want, but he driving him in lady parky car in the middle of the road. If you hear about him, he go any police station and a prison officer, they take them out. But that was under colonial times. [00:24:01] Speaker B: We're not under colonial, but. [00:24:03] Speaker A: Right. [00:24:03] Speaker B: Somebody is asking what year is the act? So just call the year again. 2019 Act 25 of 2019 Act 25 of 2019. So they're asking does protocol supersede law? [00:24:17] Speaker A: Well, we are law enforcement officers. Yes, but as I said, we inherited a colonial system that didn't change. Where the commissioner similar in the police are the commissioner more or less in charge? [00:24:34] Speaker B: Yeah. But again, again, it does. You being in charge, you have a template, you have parameters in which you can operate within, but you are still not above what is law. [00:24:51] Speaker A: I agree. I totally agree. [00:24:53] Speaker B: And we saw that with Suzette Martin when she went up and arrested the then Commissioner of police, Earl Hayward. [00:25:00] Speaker A: Christopher, that will never happen in the prison service. The commissioner has always been the top dog over the years. And whatever you say. [00:25:09] Speaker B: So if the prison's commissioner. No, I want this to be very clear, folks. And it is time to take another break. We running through, because I want these questions clear up. If the prison commissioner, the Commissioner of prisons walks into the prison now, is he subjected to search by policy? [00:25:27] Speaker A: By policy, yes. [00:25:28] Speaker B: He's supposed to. [00:25:28] Speaker A: Yes. But nobody walking. He was driving. But nobody dare say, hold up, I had a search a vehicle. Nobody would dare do that. [00:25:37] Speaker B: Wow. [00:25:39] Speaker A: That is the system. [00:25:41] Speaker B: We are fighting a losing battle in the prison. We are fighting. We trying to mop up the coastline, then the water keeps breaking and we mopping it up. [00:25:53] Speaker A: Funny. The reality and the sad part about this thing is they would visit facilities in the States, in Canada, I was told, and they are subjected to search. They have to leave their phones. [00:26:08] Speaker B: Yeah, well, there's a top dog here. Not over there. [00:26:10] Speaker A: Not over there. And if you. No, but even over there, the top dog over there subject himself to the same protocols. [00:26:17] Speaker B: Because I'm looking at something, right? And the amount of prohibited articles I'm seeing here is cell phone chargers, cords, even weed. A little. A little? Well, I don't want to say plant like substance, because that is nonsense. It's weed. I seen all kind of things here that and cell phones in abundance that people sending me here. And these are things found in the prison. So only keep searching and finding things. Searching and finding things. And it still have more. You have a vault or somewhere. [00:26:46] Speaker A: Yes. What would happen? Well, you bring up a thing that officers was very upset too, because sometimes you will do searches, we will seize phones, and then the next day you go and search the very same phones that you seize. The inmate habit again. So. So officers, when it started to mash up the phones and break up the SIM card and things like that, when they search and they find phones, they started to do that. And then they say, you know, I can't do that. They have to send these phones to try and see what it is on it, what communication. But officers, at a particular period in time was mashing up the phones because it's going. [00:27:32] Speaker B: So I come on a read and it's going right Back. Listen, I'm gonna take a quick call. Hello. Good morning. [00:27:37] Speaker C: Good morning. Good morning. What I know it to be and I'm talking about internationally now, right? The law is there for you to for subject to search. But because sometimes these guys and them are so well within the system, it happens in the States that nobody can tell me otherwise because I've seen it happen where the big boss of them will drive, you know. But they are confidential in the sense that it won't happen like you're in Trilog where take a chance to get caring anything for no inmate inside it. Because everything, every single move you're making, right, you have a. You have a room where everything is monitored through that room. Whereas here you want nobody monitoring anything. And that is why it occurs. The gentleman now saying that phones that he's wanting back in the system because you have people from in system. Things don't happen to come there by box or echo by the road. According to the minister, it's quite rightly so. But if there are consequences within the system, within the walls of the prison, you will find that not taking place. Even policemen, their behavior on the outside now that is taking place if they are consequent and I talk about serious consequences. We have been a target of prison because we are at society where the upper upper is the one responsible and have those things taken place. Right. That is why we are where we are. Yeah, I don't know if I say it in a layman's kind of language. [00:29:15] Speaker B: No, you're explaining. Good. Thanks very much. I appreciate it. I appreciate. Thanks very much. Good morning, Davey. Good morning to your guest. Yeah, I guess Mr. Logie, let's remove the item here that is in question. The. The TV daily. What about the other contrabands that are inside the prisons? And something is fundamentally wrong with those contraband entering our prison. While we are told that it's shown there must be some complicity with officers carrying this. And it is clear indication after this interview, Davy, that there needs to be a secondary unit of our armed services assigned to the prison who must mandatory search every single person that is coming into that person. That's a clear indication that we need or else we will be going with this issue will be reverberating over and over and over. Well said. Let me take this next one. Go ahead. Let me just take this last one here. [00:30:15] Speaker C: Okay. How are you going? Right, you're talking about the tablets in the prisons. Mind you, let's not be naive. They have phones. Phones can take data plan and phones. [00:30:30] Speaker B: Can Host so they have Internet access. [00:30:34] Speaker C: Understand that. Let's not be naive and not understand. [00:30:38] Speaker B: How these things go. [00:30:40] Speaker A: First I want to take the first caller. [00:30:43] Speaker B: Go ahead. [00:30:44] Speaker A: Yes, we have issues with the contraband and how this thing works. Right. Based on. For example, you would know when things had in the prison. I have one cigarette myself for $200. I talk into Yes, a prisoner in Port of Spain and they would tell you when things had one cigarette might be $200. So you would find that if you're searching the officer officers bring in stuff they're getting arrested, they're getting held that will drop, they will find some other way. As port has been prison drones they throw over the wall when they try and they climb down on the drones. You might pick up officers bringing it, visitors bring it, is bringing it as we see recently. And we have to understand these people are on remand. They are not guilty of anything. They take them, they hold them the accused or something, they bring them into the prison. The habits they had outside, they didn't drop it overnight. The prisoners are restricted area no smoking. But these people come in smoking tobacco, smoking weed. Now we see in cocaine as long time we didn't used to see cocaine and smell cocaine in the prison. But now that rampant in porcelain. So these people coming in with drug problems and there is no drug treatment for them. We are no programs that no drug treatment for these people and we expect them to drop that habit in the morning. No, that is a microcosmody society and it is a very lucrative business. Trafficking is not only your they're looking at the phones but there's a lucrative phone card. Phone card and the public buying phone card from the prison on our way. [00:32:48] Speaker B: The public buying phone cards from the prison? [00:32:52] Speaker A: Yes, and they don't know classic example. I was passing sorry somewhere in tongue and I saw a sign on the. On a hydron phone card for sale. It is not a business place somebody on the road Phone card for sale. Assign where think that phone card buying our phone card where it coming from? Wow. It is a multi million dollar business. It is just. You're just looking at the phones. But there's phone cards also. [00:33:30] Speaker B: Asean Wi FI devices. [00:33:34] Speaker A: Correct. [00:33:34] Speaker B: To get these wi Fi devices it carries a card and it has a bill attached. [00:33:39] Speaker A: Who pay? No, say top people. If you. And it's. It's. It's not something hard to track because if you. Some of these people had $10,000 in phone card on the phone. [00:33:52] Speaker B: I'll keep you with us a little longer as we chat Here on the morning Rumble, the best insight, instant feedback, accountability. [00:34:01] Speaker A: The all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5. [00:34:05] Speaker B: As we continue our discussion this morning, we are chatting with the President, the General secretary of the Prison Officers Association, Lester Logie and he's here with us. He does have an article printed in today's papers on page seven. There is a story here about the use of prison intelligence. Should have been geared towards evidence as opposed as an excuse for the soe. Let's talk a little bit about that. Touching that very quickly with this evidence. A video, another video. But voice notes started circulating on social media. I got it over the weekend saying this is the voice note. And the voice note was talking allegedly to purge the nation, purge Trinidad and Tobago. And when you listen to the conversation on the voice note, the purging is not to purge the criminal elements, but it's to purge those in authority. Let me get some car keys. Of prison. Prison officers and POs. We're dealing with them. In other words, listening to this voice note and the names and the bosses and thing that being called and how they're mobilizing. Yeah, one can, I mean I don't see that as a reason to call a national state of emergency, a nationwide state, but it could have been used to go. The fact that you got this voice note, you was able to apprehend and get this type of intelligence. I don't know, I could be wrong. But. [00:35:40] Speaker A: Well, that, that voice note came out after. [00:35:42] Speaker B: After. Yes it did. [00:35:43] Speaker A: And they did search and at the maximum security prison because they know, they. [00:35:49] Speaker B: Knew who the persons were, who the. [00:35:52] Speaker A: Persons were who made that voice note and what have you. [00:35:55] Speaker B: So they was able to apprehend that person or go to that person. [00:35:59] Speaker A: Yes, and that is usually what takes place. So sometimes you would get a call to go and search X OR Y cell A110B1 because they would have gotten information that some call would have been made. It could be somebody harassing somebody on the outside or trying to extort money money from them, things like that. Because those things happen in prison. So we would have here, here for example. That is what makes the phones dangerous. You have the, the inmate who would come to the prison first timer, he don't know anything. There isn't fast way for him to contact his family. There is no phone system that is. [00:36:51] Speaker B: Monitored to make a phone call. [00:36:54] Speaker A: Right. And these people are man. So he will take a call from. He would somebody with a phone. [00:37:01] Speaker B: Now when he make the call, the number stays there. [00:37:04] Speaker A: The number there in the Night. Now they, they put a improvised weapon to each throat and they call the number and tell them hey ascending so and so by you hand over this, whatever that is the kind of reality you're facing. Oh, and that is something that occurs in the prison. [00:37:27] Speaker B: Right. [00:37:28] Speaker A: Some of the persons might contact the prison, contact the police and then we could narrow down this is. [00:37:38] Speaker B: But then when that's when that happens, what happens to the prisoner, the inmate on remand when the, when the police gets involved and they come into the cell and they find this phone, remember this person in the same cell. [00:37:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:51] Speaker B: That comes out in the same carrying yard. So what kind of security is in. [00:37:53] Speaker A: Place to protect those they would move them out this cell. Most likely. Most, most. That was what would happen to take. [00:38:00] Speaker B: Them and put them in the next cell. [00:38:01] Speaker A: Correct. Or next area in the prison or the person involved, remove that person and. [00:38:07] Speaker B: Carry them somewhere else. [00:38:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:09] Speaker B: Now, I mean you mentioned some of the. Somebody messaged me a few minutes ago and they, they asked about. Oh, here's another one. The police officers on duty are allowed smartphones, smart cell phone usage. All phones wireless on duty should be left at the entry in a locker. Persons call the prison to get on to the person on shift. A prison officer is allowed to go in the prison? [00:38:32] Speaker A: No. And that, that is something I needed to bring across. We are the most searched members in national security. Well some of you, some, some correct as I say, rank have its privileges. [00:38:48] Speaker B: Rank average privilege. [00:38:49] Speaker A: Some. So to enter the prison you have to hand over your cellular phone. It is lodged at the gate lodge. There's an area to hand over your phone. You can't go beyond that point. [00:39:04] Speaker B: As a prison officer. [00:39:05] Speaker A: As a prison officer they will search you. Right. And recently the commissioner with the last state of emergency he brought police and all to search and officers was having an issue with that because man all up in the balls and crutch hunting. I Well, I like to get first hand. [00:39:27] Speaker B: So you went through the street. [00:39:28] Speaker A: So I went through. [00:39:29] Speaker B: And it was, it was really that. [00:39:31] Speaker A: Yes, yes, they did it to me. Now the, the issue they asked now officers was uncomfortable with that because the prison rules provides for a superintendent. It comes prison rule rule 178 states are superintendent, deputy commissioner, commissioner of prison can search any officer. You must just must subject yourself to search any officer. So when they brought in those officers had an issue with the type of search that was being done. Now usually we have a unit that search officers, junior officers. Some people have an issue with it, but the association stances, hey, you have to be searched. You have to be searched. [00:40:16] Speaker B: But are there bunny scanners? Are there. Are these things working and functioning? [00:40:19] Speaker A: Well, they had, they had baggage scanners. They had the. The. They had something they brought in in 20, I think 15 or 16. But that was really an X ray machine. And officer had an issue with the radiation when he did the research on. Is something you pass through. I think once or twice for the week. That was the limit on it. And he had officers back and forth in the prison. Have to be going through this thing. [00:40:51] Speaker B: Oh, so the figure would have been cancerous and. [00:40:55] Speaker A: Yes. And people had issue with that cancer. [00:40:59] Speaker B: So we, we do have. I mean when we go to the. [00:41:01] Speaker A: Airport, how much times you go through the scanner? [00:41:05] Speaker B: Well, if you're traveling. Okay. Not that often. [00:41:08] Speaker A: Correct. And that is when we do the research on the type of machine it was. It was not the designed for that. It was really to search prisoners because the prisoners not leaving the jail as regulars. [00:41:21] Speaker B: So then what? How else can we guarantee safety and security of the prisoners and the officers themselves if they are not subjected to a rigorous search? Because the police officers that came in at the request of the commissioner of Prisons. I mean they're getting strange enough. [00:41:41] Speaker A: They didn't find anything. You know who found those things? The same officers. We added. [00:41:46] Speaker B: The same officers that we. [00:41:49] Speaker A: Have that search officers. Currently they are the ones who found items on officers. [00:41:56] Speaker B: They found that. And the police didn't find any. [00:41:58] Speaker A: No. [00:42:03] Speaker B: So when you all find officers breaching this law. Okay, before I get to that question, what type of security apparatus do you all have currently working? [00:42:16] Speaker A: Well, they have the handheld scanners. [00:42:18] Speaker B: That's it. [00:42:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Basically it. Right. But the police wasn't using scanner. They were doing a rub down search which is what we do on inmates. Right. They would rub down make sure you in having. No, these scanners is really more for metal detection, cell phones, things like that. Detection. [00:42:40] Speaker B: But if you have. [00:42:40] Speaker A: But if you. [00:42:41] Speaker B: Cigarettes. [00:42:42] Speaker A: Cigarettes hunting. Yeah. You wouldn't pick it. You wouldn't pick it up. So you would have very officers. They would. We just call them like what Uni bomber, the strap dog. Yeah, cigarettes. Yeah. So what, what happened that day? I went by my mechanic and he's talking about a guy who fixes car and he said I see the man driving over the cigarette. Driving over some cartoons or cigarette to make it flat. So he's taking that and give officer. And the officer will strap it on and bring it in. Yeah. [00:43:23] Speaker B: And it's flat but it could still smoke it. [00:43:25] Speaker A: Yeah, Cigarettes always added I Saw a video with social media recently. [00:43:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I fell outside. [00:43:37] Speaker A: Yeah, it's true. [00:43:39] Speaker B: What he said was fact. [00:43:40] Speaker A: Was fact. Remember places like Carrera, they, you can't go Carrera to visit or anything like that. [00:43:48] Speaker B: Then they bring in prisoners and you get your visit. [00:43:51] Speaker A: So when they have things to go back they will volt it because they know they had to be searched before they leave. And they will be searched at Carrera but they wouldn't go through that rigorous thing. Tell your squat and cough. That's more like when you leave the prison because although you went from Port of Spin to Carrera, you still was in a control environment in a vehicle. They have officers there so they wouldn't carry out such a rigorous search on you. [00:44:21] Speaker B: So what is this coffin? Lord Father, listen, I, I asking it because I wanted to scare people. And what does this coffin say? So every time you go out as a prisoner and you come back. [00:44:32] Speaker A: Yeah. So you're going to attend court so that. Yeah, when we it have. Well currently we still have inmates who go physical courts. [00:44:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:44:41] Speaker A: So you're going that as we call it reception where we receive you, you have to be searched and one of the things is will tell you squat and cough and then sometime the officer will have to look to see if he's seen as trick put it up and they have a string just dropping out, hanging out. So they could pull it. Yeah, pull it out, Yeah. A whole cartoon or cigarette. It'll be shocked. [00:45:06] Speaker B: Men voting a cartoon, you know, not a packing or a cartoon. [00:45:09] Speaker A: You say no cartoon. The man was very accurate with his description. [00:45:16] Speaker B: So this is you strip? [00:45:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Well they wouldn't totally strip you, so they would take off the top first. They search you, make sure you have nothing in your clothing, put it back on, take off the bottom part. The surgeon make sure it have nothing. And then they tell you turn around, squat and cough. [00:45:39] Speaker B: And they do that to every prisoner who, who went out and then come back and then you get dressed and you go inside, right? [00:45:45] Speaker A: Well, I would say not. We try to do it to every prisoner because we have challenges with the Muslims and them with that. [00:45:53] Speaker B: So what when you say challenge, what type of challenges? [00:45:55] Speaker A: What is happening? They have issues with being searched like that and that is one of the main problems we encounter with those. [00:46:07] Speaker B: So you all. So they above the law. You all can't search a Muslim prisoner? [00:46:13] Speaker A: We do, it's just that they are very uncomfortable with it. [00:46:20] Speaker B: But then don't comedy crime. [00:46:23] Speaker A: You see, we can't say they comedy crime as yet. [00:46:25] Speaker B: Most of Them is innocent until proven guilty. But then you end up here. And because you end up here. [00:46:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:33] Speaker B: So Muslim, Hindu, Catholic, Baptist. I do business. Yeah, that's cotton cough but it's a cartoon papa pal 625-2257. As we get set to wrap this interview somebody says well obviously police won't find anything. They knew the police was coming in. But why are prisoners send death. Why? Why prisoners send death threats in some occasion kill off. Why? What? [00:46:59] Speaker A: Okay, well the challenge we have now is that these searches when they lost remember they have a phone that is their means of communicating with their children, their wife, their business. Because some of these people is multi millionaires. Let us don't fool ourselves. They're just in prison, what have you and you take away that phone and what happened. The persons who come to do the searches, they have en masse. They don't know that person. It could be a member the defense force, a police or a prison officer. They don't know that person but they know the officer who work in there without the mass. So most of the times these hits, these threats occur after these searches. Sometimes there is a confrontation, then they touch up the prisoner and them, they get their little thump up or wherever these people and them, they have, they have means outside, they wouldn't take it but they know the officer who working without a mask every day, every day they see in he, they probably know he could get away, he live in what vehicle he driving, all those things. And that is one of the main challenges we have where officers are being targeted. Targeted? Yeah, and it's to instill fear. Don't all don't come and search and take my phone more or less that is what they're trying to tell you. [00:48:41] Speaker B: Somebody said the whole prison system living in a world of their own. Davy, is that the officer that. So there's a good question here. And as we get set to wrap the interview the. Are there officers currently that you know are currently fearful for their lives? [00:48:58] Speaker A: Yes, they are. Yes. [00:48:59] Speaker B: So you think, you think this is the reason why they would allow a turn the blind. Turn a blind eye to contraband within the prison walls? [00:49:07] Speaker A: Yes. The town officers will see inmates on four phones and they will pretend like they didn't see because as far as they're concerned if I take that phone from you, I don't have firearm, I handle protection, nobody in helping me. So they will pretend like they didn't see. And we have senior officers would do it. People would report to me they're making wrongs with a senior Officer above superintendent now he making wrong with somebody who like a PO2 is a similar in rank as sergeant. They're making rounds. You see somebody they see the person on the phone. Now the senior officer would see him. He didn't say nothing. When he reach outside, he tell the officer well yeah, this one was on the phone go faith the officer turn and tell him no you is the senior officer there when that when you on the spot you should have take charge and take the phone. Still no, don't send me for no phone. Why you leave the man with the phone now long time. When I joined the service at 1996 we had senior officers. They wasn't leaving there without taking their phone. [00:50:15] Speaker B: Not again. So times have changed. [00:50:19] Speaker A: Times have changed especially well the prison in 2006 there was a rat in the reman. [00:50:25] Speaker B: I remember that. [00:50:26] Speaker A: And things went. When they went in and they go negotiate when the officers wanted to deal with it. The emergency response unit the commissioner at the time told them stand down and went and negotiate police. And what have you had to come in after to deal with the same situation the officers wanted to treat with and from since that that kind of negotiation and things like that. [00:50:51] Speaker B: And so it's like the prisoners aware that officers are scared. [00:50:57] Speaker A: Yes. And they. They know that the senior officers are scared. [00:51:05] Speaker B: So he walked back outside and telling the junior go back and take the phone. [00:51:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:08] Speaker B: And the junior ultimate boss. You was there, correct? [00:51:11] Speaker A: You. You saw it based on the thing you supposed to take charge of this. [00:51:14] Speaker B: One time and you did not. You want to send me for my life. No, no. And he cannot be reprimanded or disciplined for insubordination. Right. [00:51:21] Speaker A: The thing he would say he was the senior officer in charge and he did nothing. And he did nothing. [00:51:27] Speaker B: Hello. Good morning. [00:51:29] Speaker C: Morning. My brother Dougie. What a thing. You know, this is not. This is not something you're doing on daily. You see until these phones have a SIM card. Daily SIM card has to be registered to an individual. So until the individual who owns the SIM SIM card is not being charged and arrested them thinking go stop Davy until the post because I take away the phone. And before the next morning you had a phone, isn't it somebody in the prisons giving back the phone. [00:52:09] Speaker B: All right, thanks. Yeah. And information reaching me, of course that last year the MSP a senior officer was found with cartoons of cigarettes and nothing came of it. [00:52:25] Speaker A: Well, it was alleged. Alleged, yeah. [00:52:29] Speaker B: But it continues to be alleged because nobody come in and say yes, correct. [00:52:34] Speaker A: Nothing. Well, nothing came of it because it was alleged. We, we're not sure the incident did take place. I think statements were taken, but nothing came of it. I'm aware of the. [00:52:48] Speaker B: Yeah, we have the incident. Hello. Good morning. [00:52:50] Speaker C: Hey, good morning, Davey. [00:52:52] Speaker B: Good morning. [00:52:52] Speaker C: And to the gentleman there, I just want to ask a question right to the officer. Do you think in your own wisdom that prison officers create their own monster that they're facing now? [00:53:02] Speaker A: Well, as I said in 2006, I view that as. When all this, this we started to go downhill with. [00:53:14] Speaker C: But as the, as the, the secretary of the association. Do you all have restrict like conversation with the officers as to why and what they are facing when they do this and what they are doing about and why they're doing it? [00:53:29] Speaker A: Why, why they are doing what? [00:53:32] Speaker C: Why they are creating these monsters? [00:53:35] Speaker A: Well, the monsters is being created by the persons at the top and they have the authority to more or less manage the prison. [00:53:46] Speaker C: Because what I'm thinking here is if the prison officers restrict themselves from these habits that they are doing, wouldn't make their job easier. [00:53:57] Speaker A: For example. I'll give an example to you. The last commissioner prison, the previous one, they had two senior officers who stood up there and tell him no, they ain't doing this. No, this, this car happened this wrong. He sent them on vacation. [00:54:17] Speaker C: Well, what I'm, what I'm saying is that with the contraband getting in in the prison walls and we heard that drones are dropping it off and to supposed. [00:54:24] Speaker A: But yes, we have a serious problem with drones. [00:54:27] Speaker C: Drone drop it off. Somebody has to pick it up and take it to the officer. [00:54:30] Speaker A: No. All right, for example, all right, let. Let me tell you how these drones work. [00:54:36] Speaker C: Let me just finish, Let me just up there. Right. So what I'm saying, if the prison officers and you as the secretary of the association enforce that your officers do not involve in these activities and ensure that that you all have a clean slate so that nobody can point fingers at the officers who created these monsters, then we have a good prison system. [00:54:58] Speaker A: Okay. And if the top, if the top. [00:54:59] Speaker C: Is the issue, then you all at the on at the bottom level should be able to have some redress at some point. Rather than making it known to the. To the top part, you go to a higher level and you make the report here. [00:55:14] Speaker A: Well, what I can tell you with that is that what I can tell you first with the drones, a drone, this design of those drones, once those drones do a successful drop, and most likely that, that those drops are to a window in the facility, in the prison, it will keep going to that Same window. It doesn't. It doesn't set to that. Right. It's the drone wouldn't drop just any and everywhere. [00:55:45] Speaker B: Right. [00:55:46] Speaker A: And they will have their way of getting it to where they wanted to go. [00:55:51] Speaker B: Right. [00:55:51] Speaker A: They have in the past the. They certain to have like the drones flying higher in MSP because probably the. The jamas or whatever. If it fly too low, it will drop on the ground. [00:56:08] Speaker B: Right. [00:56:08] Speaker A: Because they got. They got one of the drones that dropped right by building 13. And this is not no cheap drone. Expensive, expensive drones. Yeah. If it fly too low, it probably lost signal and it. They would drop and they would get. But other than that they have challenges. The post office doesn't ignite. [00:56:32] Speaker B: Watch the skies. Yeah, but in conclusion. In conclusion, of course we will revisit you again in the not too distant future. We can safely say that this 65 inch television did not make its way into the prison. [00:56:45] Speaker A: No. [00:56:45] Speaker B: That's without authorization from the commissioner. [00:56:48] Speaker A: Correct. [00:56:48] Speaker B: And the past commissioner would have authorized televisions, but more for the common areas. [00:56:53] Speaker A: Yes. [00:56:53] Speaker B: You are not aware that of any commission was moved. It was moved when it got in as an internal something, but not. [00:57:01] Speaker A: Okay, not what they authorized. [00:57:03] Speaker B: What they authorized. So what when the message. [00:57:04] Speaker A: I don't think this commissioner, this current one authorized any TV or those were from the. [00:57:08] Speaker B: From the past. All right. So with that being said, 27 minutes we have been talking with the general secretary of the Prison Office Association, Lester Logie. He has been chatting with us for a little over an hour and we want to thank him very much for coming in this morning and for listening and answering the questions by our beloved callers. And of course, I mean I still can't get over the tubbing issue. [00:57:29] Speaker A: For real? [00:57:30] Speaker B: Not. No, I mean I've hear. I've heard the talks. I've heard the talks. What is the lockdown time in the prison? From what time? In the afternoon. [00:57:37] Speaker A: Cease labor is 4 o'. Clock. [00:57:41] Speaker B: The remandees, not the. Not the ones we'll talk. Yeah, they reminded they come out. How is it function very quickly. Well, they get up early in the morning. [00:57:49] Speaker A: Early in the morning. [00:57:50] Speaker B: What time? By 5. [00:57:51] Speaker A: Yeah, 5. The officer. Well, the prison rally is supposed to open but from 6am in the morning. [00:57:57] Speaker B: Right. [00:57:58] Speaker A: However, if we open from six, we cannot finish everything. Every. All the things that needed to be done and get their diet everything. Get them airing bath, wash their clothes and everything. [00:58:11] Speaker B: So you had to open 4 o'? [00:58:12] Speaker A: Clock. So they open. They would open early. 4 o' clock would be ration room people who do any cooking will come out at 4 these remanded inmates when they unlock the prison is usually around 6 they will start to bring out breakfast put the things outside and they start clearing up they would open them to start to clean up the place around six right and then they will start serving clean up start serving breakfast probably send some to bed and things like that yeah so it's and what. [00:58:48] Speaker B: Time in the afternoon you lock off. [00:58:50] Speaker A: That they're locked they're locked away four by five they should be locked in. [00:58:54] Speaker B: So they're locked in their cells around 5 o' clock till the next morning. [00:58:57] Speaker A: Till the next morning so anything to. [00:58:59] Speaker B: Do you had a plate and a paper and three times yeah my goodness yeah folks next interview is coming up next stick and stay more to come on the morning rumble we thank you very much Lester for passing through sure. [00:59:12] Speaker A: The best insight instant feedback accountability the all new Talk Radio Freedom 106.5.